Tanking and Human Form

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Hey all, my barb is now 84 and an FC champion. Fully used to tigering his way around, pulling mag hall with a mystic healing, etc etc because Invoke is amazing.

Now my question is, I started experimenting with getting aggro, and then going into human form and just DDing my face off while keeping aggro. Does anyone have any thoughts on switching between tiger and human during bosses?

How do you, personally, use your human form skills in PvE?

Atm, I rarely use them, I have played around with trying to fit slam into my pulls, but the knockback is abit annoying.

Anyways, I welcome your thoughts

Magnanimous_ - Heavens Tear

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How do you, personally, use your human form skills in PvE?

For pulling mobs in ff, I usually synchronize my Armageddon right after a bm's hf... all mobs will drop dead after that b:laugh Careful... dont kill urself with arma b:shocked

_Perses_ - Lost City

Pull in tiger form -> invoke -> go human -> BM dragon -> Arma -> Watch **** die, as I go back into tiger form.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

As much as I like the human-mode skills, I've never found a lot of use for them in FF. My pull strategy for big room has been the following for the last 10 levels or so...

Pull full room -> Holy Path (diagonally, away from the mobs and the BB) -> Turtle -> Bestial Rage + Roar -> Holy Path again (towards the BB this time) -> Surf -> Sunder.

By the time I've finished Sunder, at least 50% of the mobs are usually dead thanks to the DDs. XD

I've always found good old regular mob grinding a better opportunity to practice these things though. Sometimes I'll have the pleasure of doing a standard quest with a cleric or mystic, one where the target is melee mobs. Then things get fun...

Pull -> Roar -> Bestial Rage -> Surf -> Sunder -> switch to human -> Arma -> Slam -> reposition self to catch more mobs with Swell -> Swell -> Slam again, etc. etc.

:P

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I... hate slam. Actually that's not true. I use it almost exclusively as a defensive move, not an offensive dd move.

It drives me nuts when I'm on other characters and a barb slams the mobs and spreads them out for no reason. Now everyone's aoes are missing and the HF only catches half the mobs. Basically he ruins the nice little mob collection he made because he wanted to DD rather than let bigger DDs drop the bombs. We hate it when archers/wizards use knockbacks and then do it ourselves? The real purpose of slam imo is when you need a break from mobs, like if bb isn't quite healing you enough, and so you slam for a few second relief. This allows skills like Sunder and invoke to cooldown. It makes soloing huge pulls relatively easy since you can be either invoked, sundering, or knocking back mobs to get relief.

I'm demon, and I love the demon Sunder + Arma combo. Full hp and 100% crit arma is oh so fricken beautiful.

This is less important in FCC but good for Delta, but Sunder + (ToP) Armageddon + Untamed Wrath then back to tiger is great. Following your armageddon with you 79 skill works well because not only does it add aggro and have a bigger range than roar, it stuns the mobs while your tiger form coolsdown and you are at 1/2 hp because of arma.

You'll find sage barbs stand up more than demon's do at bosses. This is because of the damage reduction of tiger form. If they're not tanking then they stand up to DD since they have a slightly better output this way. I'd argue that if you're not going to tank then staying in tiger form and devour for other melees is more useful. If they have Sage Penetrate Armor, great, but its rare enough almost no sage barbs do. Still, you can spot a sage barb because they standup at bosses.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Yeah, I plan to get sage Penetrate myself, as soon as I have money to spare for barb skills. :P

But yeah, Slam is pretty decent as defense - when I use Arma -> Slam, I use ToP with them so that the ToP finishes as the mobs reach me again. Also, I find that most people don't care about Slam in basic grinding situations. It's only in FF where you're trying to set off all those fireworks (like HF) that people care.

Deago - Lost City

this is the best way to drop mobs if your a barb and can solo frost

invoke-chi gain-surf-sunder-human- TOP- Arma

Lolgasmic - Raging Tide

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hey all, my barb is now 84 and an FC champion. Fully used to tigering his way around, pulling mag hall with a mystic healing, etc etc because Invoke is amazing.

Now my question is, I started experimenting with getting aggro, and then going into human form and just DDing my face off while keeping aggro. Does anyone have any thoughts on switching between tiger and human during bosses?

How do you, personally, use your human form skills in PvE?

Atm, I rarely use them, I have played around with trying to fit slam into my pulls, but the knockback is abit annoying.

Anyways, I welcome your thoughts

b:shocked

Bad barb! BAD! *Whacks with news paper*b:angry

Vindis - Dreamweaver

@Saku: Yeah, I see the defensive use of Slam in Delta or something. I use wingspan like that in Delta on my archer when my brother's Wizard pulls aggro off an ulti crit and my BoA is on Cooldown. Similarly, he keeps mobs off of me with Will of the Phoenix.

I maxes Stomp and Mighty Swing, I need to level Penetrate still. I can hit like 12k zerks on bosses in Fc, which is pretty ok somewhat, at least compared to tiger form. I acutally out tanked a sin the other day in BH69 on Pyro while staying human form with ream, devour, spark+, human, zerk crits, switch back. Sometimes I feel like my barb has ALOT of chi at bosses, other times, not enough. Depends how high of a DD is trying to get aggro. Example: Aps archers that are lvl 88, they can't get aggro, so Idk why they are using GVs..

I just made my 79 skills but I don't yet have the spirit for them. I was thinking to max Sunder first anyhow. Which 79 skill do you guys recommend I learn first? I also am about to equip my brand new +5 Pan Gu in 12% more xp (120 mirages ftw)

My Arma is still lvl 1 and I don't currently have ToP on a genie yet. I am getting it when I get the affinity for it though, my genie atm I think is lvl 79, 58/70(?)


What I have come to hate on my barb (besides having trouble finding clerics) is that mystic seal AoE. Idk mystic skills, but I hate whatever that is. It pulls all the mobs out of my roar, so that way the mobs kill the other DDs b:surrender. If a mystic is solo healing, they need to chill out with that sometimes b:angry

Blaxton - Raging Tide

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm demon, and I love the demon Sunder + Arma combo. Full hp and 100% crit arma is oh so fricken beautiful.

This. Soloing FC pulls is a breeze.

Bestial+Invoke>Mire(just to make sure)>Demon Sunder>Demon Arma. If there are any phys mobs left, I will Slam to finish them off and get some chi. Slam is the last thing I'd use in a squad pull though, unless I really, really needed to get a group of phys mobs off me and had no other defenses. Never use it on ranged...


I basically stayed in tiger form in squad situations at lower levels, unless I was the non-tanking barb.

Questing is when I'd usually go human form because I liked to spam Mighty Swing for the stun. Now, if I don't feel like pulling groups of mobs, I do something like Alacrity>Devour>Switch>Mighty Swing>Bestial Onslaught, or if I stay human, Mighty Swing>Penetrate Armor>Bestial Onslaught>whatever. Sometimes it's fun to Mighty Swing>Slam>Bestial Onslaught> Mighty Swing again when the mob comes back into range.

I wish Slam were an aoe Stun or Freeze. b:dirty

I would suggest... Violent Triumph first? Not sure. I only use Untamed Wrath in Delta sometimes. Violent Triumph>Tiger>Invoke is fun tho.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Saku: Yeah, I see the defensive use of Slam in Delta or something. I use wingspan like that in Delta on my archer when my brother's Wizard pulls aggro off an ulti crit and my BoA is on Cooldown. Similarly, he keeps mobs off of me with Will of the Phoenix.

...

What I have come to hate on my barb (besides having trouble finding clerics) is that mystic seal AoE. Idk mystic skills, but I hate whatever that is. It pulls all the mobs out of my roar, so that way the mobs kill the other DDs b:surrender. If a mystic is solo healing, they need to chill out with that sometimes b:angry

Hmm, if I had to pick only one 79 skilled it'd be Untamed Wrath. VT would be more useful in PvP but its fallback in PvE is the need to be human making it less useful in most situations than it really should be. For the most part you can just take the stun/freeze and tank the damage anyways. UW is useful as its like a second roar, adds a good amount of aggro, and stuns for a second. This will stop alot of running mobs from kitting you.

The mystic skill is called Gale Force. It has a 50% chance to freeze and a 50% chance to seal. Freezing is great, sealing sucks. They can't control which it does and unfortunately its their only aoe so they use it. They have plants that do week aoe damage with some great status effects and they have a pet that they can summon once a minute that only lasts 20 seconds and when it goes byebye it creates a huge boom for some excellent dd. Most mystics can't really coorinate their Cragglord for aoe dmg, it seems.

I have a small beef with archer's Wingspan in Delta. My first issue is alot of archers tend to use it as aoe damage before they even get aggro. The mobs get knocked back and the archer continues to range aoe while I have to chase the knocked back mobs to attack them and gain less aggro. I understand some use it to get mobs off them when they already do have aggro and thats fine. I'd rather they stand and tank so we all can dd and kill the mobs quicker, but if they feel they need to knock the mobs off them they can. Typically its R9 +10 or better, or a seeker that might pull aggro off my barb so I kind of do expect them just to tank. The other day I had an R9 +11 archer get a bit of aggro and then start knocking back like crazy and for good reason, their hp was going down really fast on just stage 3 mobs. I checked, R9 +11 bow, +3-5 armor and crappy ornies. "Offense is more important than defense for archers so you kill things before they can get to you." Yes, but thats just out of balance. The real solution is damage modify but if an archer choses to tank then I think they should be expected to not knockback, just like barbs.

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

Slam is good in delta for pushing the ranged mobs into the aoe of Vortex or DB. Other than that it's pretty useless.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hmm, if I had to pick only one 79 skilled it'd be Untamed Wrath. VT would be more useful in PvP but its fallback in PvE is the need to be human making it less useful in most situations than it really should be. For the most part you can just take the stun/freeze and tank the damage anyways. UW is useful as its like a second roar, adds a good amount of aggro, and stuns for a second. This will stop alot of running mobs from kitting you.

I plan to get both, just wasn't sure which to get first. I'll probably grab one and then the other a bit later. I haven't maxed Sunder yet (lvl 9 atm), but I do have 6 sage skills waiting at 89 and rationing Spirit makes things tough. I will probably get Sage True Form, Alacrity and maybe Ream (if I can find it) before I focus on maxing/saging all of my human ones.

The mystic skill is called Gale Force. It has a 50% chance to freeze and a 50% chance to seal. Freezing is great, sealing sucks. They can't control which it does and unfortunately its their only aoe so they use it. They have plants that do week aoe damage with some great status effects and they have a pet that they can summon once a minute that only lasts 20 seconds and when it goes byebye it creates a huge boom for some excellent dd. Most mystics can't really coorinate their Cragglord for aoe dmg, it seems.

Ah I see. Still, I do know about their awesome plants doing 59/69 pulls with my brother's mystic. I will make it a point to warn mystics not to use Gale Force immediately, if at all. Only time pulls go badly is when they AoE seal everything, Invoke wears off in a low AoE squad and I die lol.

I have a small beef with archer's Wingspan in Delta. My first issue is alot of archers tend to use it as aoe damage before they even get aggro. The mobs get knocked back and the archer continues to range aoe while I have to chase the knocked back mobs to attack them and gain less aggro. I understand some use it to get mobs off them when they already do have aggro and thats fine. I'd rather they stand and tank so we all can dd and kill the mobs quicker, but if they feel they need to knock the mobs off them they can. Typically its R9 +10 or better, or a seeker that might pull aggro off my barb so I kind of do expect them just to tank. The other day I had an R9 +11 archer get a bit of aggro and then start knocking back like crazy and for good reason, their hp was going down really fast on just stage 3 mobs. I checked, R9 +11 bow, +3-5 armor and crappy ornies. "Offense is more important than defense for archers so you kill things before they can get to you." Yes, but thats just out of balance. The real solution is damage modify but if an archer choses to tank then I think they should be expected to not knockback, just like barbs.

My archer is sage pure dex r8 +7 wep, +5/6 armors with around 8.2k hp, 9.8k p def and 7k m def buffed. He is pretty squishy, I think my barb passed him in durability in his bh51 range lol. Still, he can tank abit, but I generally expect the mobs to focus on the wiz/seeker over myself due to BoA's ridiculous cooldown and aps sins/bms killing my target. I tend to focus on ranged mobs, and use wingspan/knockback to push the extras into vortex/db. I use wingspan if I get aggro to push the mobs back to others. If I am in a melee heavy squad I won't use it as often. If there is a very squishy wizard it is important to keep them alive sometimes. I find BIDS+Will of the Phoenix knockback isnt so bad. I do notice that melees seem to not recognize that the mobs will come back to their target in afew seconds. Wingspan works well when waiting on BoA cooldown and charm ticks. Sage also gives a spark 20% of the time, which is nice. I also use it alot like how Xylolyx said, to knock mobs on the edge away. I generally leave melee mobs to the barb/wiz/seeker/bm and focus on the ranged ones, since I view a sin or bm apsing them to death one at a time as a waste if I can just BoA one at the right distance and pull them all into the edge of vortex.

I once did a 5 archer and 1 cleric delta. We basically timed our wingspans with 2 archers in BoA and watched **** happen. It was fun times. /archer

I'm not sure when I would use Slam practically tbh. Maybe when solo pulling or to knock stuff away to wait on tiger cooldown if aoeing, I will have to experiment more. Probably more useful with 3 sparks.

I have a question about Swell and Firestorm, you guys ever use these? Mine are both level 1 still lol.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

barb and archer stuff

Actually that reminded me of something. Another use for slam. A wizard friend's husband has been spoiling her and Rank 9ing her and +10ing weapons for her... Was in a Delta and she would get a bit of aggro and refuse to drop DB. She's decently tanky and I normally duel with my cleric, which heals her fine, but to avoid a charm tick she will use earthquake to knockback the mobs. Alternating earthquake and slam if a caster grabs aggro works pretty well.

And the mystic seal is useful against ranged mobs because only melee mobs run when sealed but ranged mobs stay in place and just shuttup.

Good to hear you're an archer that prioritizes attacking ranged mobs. Most don't think ranged mobs are "worthy" of the 2 sparks of BoA since they die too quickly and their skill finishes. So they expect other ranged classes to kill them, or the melee chars to either kill them or knock them into the melee mobs, or the barb to pull the ranged mobs in with the melee. That really takes our focus off the melee mobs and gives the archer a chance to get aggro because they neglected "their" mobs and focussed on melee only, then they QQ about it.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Well, sage with awaken I have sparks for days, especially in Delta. And yea, most archers are a shame these days. My logic anyways is that squad dps is maximized when BM and Sin are HF/SSing the mobs on the wiz/barb/seeker. So I dont mind doing the other stuff since I dont have to run very far to get them into vortex/db anyways.

And yeah, that seems a pro use for slam. I used it a little bit in a rebirth Gamma today. Invoke, Sunder, Arma, Slam. Was pretty nifty, but I need to lvl my arma still (lvl 1 x,x)

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well, sage with awaken I have sparks for days, especially in Delta. And yea, most archers are a shame these days. My logic anyways is that squad dps is maximized when BM and Sin are HF/SSing the mobs on the wiz/barb/seeker. So I dont mind doing the other stuff since I dont have to run very far to get them into vortex/db anyways.

And yeah, that seems a pro use for slam. I used it a little bit in a rebirth Gamma today. Invoke, Sunder, Arma, Slam. Was pretty nifty, but I need to lvl my arma still (lvl 1 x,x)

I know you're debating leveling your 79 skills, Sunder, or Arma. Arma is pretty disappointing until you have 20k+ hp. With 18k hp my Sunder and Arma do about the same damage since my sunder is demon and auto crits and my Arma is only level 10. And Sunder gives you hp, Arma removes half your hp and mp. So Sunder ftw.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Yeah, I just hit 86 so about 12k hp in tiger now. 156 vit green. I swapped my calas for a +5 Pan Gu. I notice the lack of zerk crits now, but I am surprised I sometimes get 10k+ Flesh Ream crits. That skill hits hard rofl.

Feel free to prioritize these. I got 1.7mil spirit.

Skills lvl 2 or lower:
Garotte
Swell
Firestorm
Arma
Penetrate Armor (2)

Skills near maxing:
SotT (lvl 10 is soon)
Sunder (8)
Frighten (7)
Surf Impact (8)

I also have both 79 skills learned. Turns out I didnt complete my 79 culti yet, so I am shifting some focus to that now, I get spammed with FC invites now on my barb though lol. Also, seekers are crazy broken when a lvl 83 one can just pull and solo stuff that would take me forever to kill. Im sure he appreciates my HP/Atk buffs though.

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yeah, I just hit 86 so about 12k hp in tiger now. 156 vit green. I swapped my calas for a +5 Pan Gu. I notice the lack of zerk crits now, but I am surprised I sometimes get 10k+ Flesh Ream crits. That skill hits hard rofl.

Feel free to prioritize these. I got 1.7mil spirit.

Skills lvl 2 or lower:
GarotteLAST
SwellFifth
FirestormEighth
ArmaSeventh
Penetrate Armor (2)Fourth

Skills near maxing:
SotT (lvl 10 is soon) First Priority
Sunder (8)Second
Frighten (7)Sixth
Surf Impact (8)Third

I also have both 79 skills learned. Turns out I didnt complete my 79 culti yet, so I am shifting some focus to that now, I get spammed with FC invites now on my barb though lol. Also, seekers are crazy broken when a lvl 83 one can just pull and solo stuff that would take me forever to kill. Im sure he appreciates my HP/Atk buffs though.

My suggestions in red.
Arma is lack luster until it's maxed and you have a nice sized HP pool. And it's expensive b:sad For those reasons I'd wait.

Titans is top priority. More damage for everyone.

Sunder is just all around sexy. Need I say more?

Surf, more AoE damage, and just more damage in general even if using on single target.

Why Pen. Armor 4th? Well, in the event you find yourself standing up, its nice to debuff for as much as possible. Also, Sage Pen. is sexy. (I seem to recall you're headed sage right?)

Swell is ok. Sage swell's extra range is sexy. More AoE damage.

Frighten does it's job well enough without being maxed ASAP, so that's why it doesn't take a top priority in my book, but it's certainly not something to ignore either.

Firestorm is nice, but it has VERY limited use. I Like it in OHT 3rd map grinding. Anyways, by the time your ready to really make use of this skill, you'll have the spare spirit for it.

Garrote is junk. I haven't used it once since level 10.

Hazarduz - Heavens Tear

Bobobejumbo - Raging Tide wrote: »

Skills lvl 2 or lower:
GarotteLAST
SwellFifth
FirestormEighth
ArmaSeventh
Penetrate Armor (2)Fourth

Skills near maxing:
SotT (lvl 10 is soon) First Priority
Sunder (8)Second
Frighten (7)Sixth
Surf Impact (8)Third

Id say Bob's pretty much got it covered. One more thing Id like to add is that skill priorities really should be based on what you do more of, rather than what others think of a skill (ofc theres always some skills that are blatantly obvious like titans or BKI).

For e.g. If you find yourself tanking as tiger more often than DDing as human or a secondary tank, then you may want to prioritise frighten over penetrate. Id personally max devour well before either of these though.

Frighten can be really useful on bosses like Kong or Ape boss in TT where u'd like to reduce their damage a bit. Plus theres always the chi gain benefit.

I dunno but I almost never seem to find a decent use for swell, Im mostly tiger, and going human to cast a relatively weak aoe, to then go back to tiger, just seems like wasted effort to me, Id rather just wait for enough chi to sunder or surf to cooldown. But hey, to each his own! b:victory

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Hazarduz - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Id say Bob's pretty much got it covered. One more thing Id like to add is that skill priorities really should be based on what you do more of, rather than what others think of a skill (ofc theres always some skills that are blatantly obvious like titans or BKI).

For e.g. If you find yourself tanking as tiger more often than DDing as human or a secondary tank, then you may want to prioritise frighten over penetrate. Id personally max devour well before either of these though.

Frighten can be really useful on bosses like Kong or Ape boss in TT where u'd like to reduce their damage a bit. Plus theres always the chi gain benefit.

I dunno but I almost never seem to find a decent use for swell, Im mostly tiger, and going human to cast a relatively weak aoe, to then go back to tiger, just seems like wasted effort to me, Id rather just wait for enough chi to sunder or surf to cooldown. But hey, to each his own! b:victory

Ty for the suggestions. I have maxed Sunder and I had Devour maxed too. I didnt mean to put Titans on there, ofc Im going to max that rofl.

I mostly meant to ask about the human skills. I do alot of tiger tanking. I probably will max frighten before penetrate because i use frighten alot on pulls after sunder in case a dd grabs aggro (psys are kinda broken and dont know restraint; BV)

Penetrate is probably next though, but barby is abit broke on coin atm (throwing coin at archer for LG 2nd cast pants in hopes of next expansion x,x). Hopefully I will be there soon though and be able to chip another 10mil over to him.

On Swell: The only time I have used it so far was in Gamma when I invoked and stood up to use Arma after sunder and surf. I had soooo much chi and figured i would swell since it was there. It was ok. Idk if it gets to the point where it is super good, but I have the sage book in my bank (got it for 50k).

Sage books I have waiting at 89:

True Form
Stomp
Swell
Garrotte
Alacrity

I was going to buy Feral, but I didn't have enough coin (spent 17mil on Sage Mountain Seize for my brother).

I did have a question on dueling though:

My barb is getting alot of duel requests just standing around North Arch. Even clerics want to fight me. Ofc everyone is lvl 100, but Im basically invincible. The problem is my damage. I can't seem to kill anything really. It took me afew minutes to wittle down a 93 BM (stupid stunlock) and I had alot of trouble with a r8+6 cleric, Psys are just hax. Would my damage increase considerably if I statted some vit out? I am not sure how barb skills work and if strength is a large factor in their damage output or not. Thoughts?

Hazarduz - Heavens Tear

In my very limited PvP experience, barbs dont do a lot of damage period.

Ofc statting out vit for str will increase ur damage, but imho, you'd lose out more in terms of HP (since you get two HP multiplier skills BKI and trueform). So ok you hit a bit harder, but you're also easier to kill. Also remember your real shiner 1shot skill (well not somuch 1shot anyone anymore) is armageddon and thats based off your HP only and not your strength.

I think the real problem is we take so long to kill that we are eventually stunlocked for a while, during which the enemy recovers and you end up starting over of sorts.

Id suggest using genie skills to overcome stuns/sleeps and try your stun/freeze/interrupt skills more often. Personally Id prefer getting ome nice booster stats in str, up your crit rate and make get a zerk wep over sacrificing HP. Beastial onslaught is a good way to wield damge, and ensure your following hits land. Lastly make sure you've got some accuracy boost for PvP (misty or some +acc eq or even a +acc potion is better than nothing).