high critical hit seeker ??

watertide

is it a good idea to make a seeker with high critical hit rate ?? like 30% ?? Seeker have high dex already.

laloner

watertide wrote: »

is it a good idea to make a seeker with high critical hit rate ?? like 30% ?? Seeker have high dex already.

I've been wondering about this myself. 20 dex gives you one crit percentage which leads to a one percent increase in dps. I think 20 str gives you 1.3% more dps. But this is for normal attacks, many seeker skills aren't strongly affected by str yet all skills are doubled by a crit.

One of these days I hope someone works out all the math and comes up with the definitive answer.

ItsAWolf - Archosaur

There is no definitive answer. It all depends on your current str, crit, and gear; and which skills you are using.

Sympathi - Archosaur

I am actually researching this right now, it sounds like an interesting idea. My build on Archosaur (PvE) Server is full strength statted, critical hit gear with Diamond of Tigers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6-CkzmBo04 was my last recorded TW Video and my current build is in the description)

Im making this build because anyone can just buy Full rank 9, and own in PK or TW and i felt i wanted to be diffrent and stand out from them other people (given my reputation on server and the game in general anyway)

But i did some calculations using a level 1 sword with 5 - 6 attack and altered my strenth points using my strength giving gears (but none that affected dex, physical attack and DoT adds such as rings or my sleeves)

Here were my working outs on the Illusion of Grandeur monster from 1K Streams

418 Strength Points
1,945 - 1,949 Base Physical Damage
16,124 - 16,137 Damage from Gemini Slash

387 Strength Points (7.4% Lower)
1,852 - 1,856 Base Physical Damage (4.8% Lower)
15,993 - 16,004 Damage from Gemini Slash (0.82% Lower)

From these you can work out that for every 1 point less i had in strength, my Gemini Slash did 0.03% less Damage, despite it being a 0.24% reduction in my base Damage per point

31 Strength Points lowered the Base damage by 7.41%
31 Strength Points lowered the Gemini Slash Skill damage by 0.82%

Therefore

1 Strength Point Lowered the Base damage by 0.24%
1 Strength Point lowered the Gemini Slash Skill damage by 0.03%

So for the people who want it simplified;

For every 20 points you take out Strength for 1% more chance at dealing 200% damage, you will lose 0.6% damage from non critical and 1.2% Damage from critical.

I'm still verifying its all correct and stacks correctly the higher you get (such as R9) i got the same numbers from my build test on PWCalc, but so far it seems like a really good trade-off!

J_Voorhees - Heavens Tear

that is the reason why, archers are so beloved, you can always trust their mathskills and researching ahahaha b:chuckle

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

From my own research, and based on discussion with several other Seekers, STR build is the way to go. Get your crits from gear, don't throw a bunch of points to DEX because the return in the long run isn't worth it.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

From my own research, and based on discussion with several other Seekers, STR build is the way to go. Get your crits from gear, don't throw a bunch of points to DEX because the return in the long run isn't worth it.

b:laugh LOL... I'm sorry dude but your response..."From my own research, and based on discussion with several other Seekers,"... stacks up fairly poorly against Sympathi's very well laid out case for Seekers being able to stat some of their points into dex at end game without sweating about losing too much damage.

Strength acts as a relatively small multiplier (per strength point) to base damage. The hardest hitting seeker skills (Gemini, vortex ,etc...) as well as your 3 spark are boosted mainly by your weapons attack. So if you really want to hit hard as a Seeker, concentrating solely on strength just doesn't seem to be the way to go. Better to refine your weapon to the hilt and then look into obtaining more attack levels rather than just put everything into strength and then only be able to crit once in a blue moon.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

b:laugh LOL... I'm sorry dude but your response..."From my own research, and based on discussion with several other Seekers,"... stacks up fairly poorly against Sympathi's very well laid out case for Seekers being able to stat some of their points into dex at end game without sweating about losing too much damage.

Here's my research. And it's not just your damage that's affected.

Putting a few points to DEX for crit might not be that bad, but you're better off by boosting your DEX/Crit% with gear than you are by using attrib points. A pure DEX build would see a significant downfall in defense and damage output, even given a high crit rate.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

Here's my research. And it's not just your damage that's affected.

Putting a few points to DEX for crit might not be that bad, but you're better off by boosting your DEX/Crit% with gear than you are by using attrib points. A pure DEX build would see a significant downfall in defense and damage output, even given a high crit rate.

Eh... no one's talking about building a pure dex build (at least I hope not b:avoid). But at the same time the general consensus around here seems to be to cap dex at 160 (with some arguing the cap should be even lower) with even one more point than that translating into a failed build. Now clearly the data does not support that point of view in that Seekers can easily stat dex as high as 180 or even 200 without any significant fall off in damage. I mean the very data in your own calculations per your link above supports that. Furthermore your calculations were based on a PVE world where damage per second (your delta example) is king. But what about those Seekers who PVP where skill spamming is what matters most ?

They would argue that spike damage is king and the higher you can get your crit rate... the greater chance of you one-two shotting your opponent and ending the fight.

Sympathi - Archosaur

To be honest, i might change to full Dex rather then full Strength assuming i can work out it stays the same the higher up it goes.

http://pwcalc.com/2d82712356c85197 is what it would be with Dex which is 160 Points restatted out which would be a 4.8% nurf on my Gemini Slash damage (TBH the only skill that matters for killing in TW) for a 7% crit chance increase.

And lets not forget the other bonuses of increasing Dex, id have almost double my accuracy without the need for double 50% rings, so that Gemini slash will hit that sin who just stealthed at 3% life, and the evasion too, I'm sure its happened to a lot your getting pewpewed your running, 10hp and the killing shot misses.

laloner

Sympathi - Archosaur wrote: »

To be honest, i might change to full Dex rather then full Strength assuming i can work out it stays the same the higher up it goes.

http://pwcalc.com/2d82712356c85197 is what it would be with Dex which is 160 Points restatted out which would be a 4.8% nurf on my Gemini Slash damage (TBH the only skill that matters for killing in TW) for a 7% crit chance increase.

And lets not forget the other bonuses of increasing Dex, id have almost double my accuracy without the need for double 50% rings, so that Gemini slash will hit that sin who just stealthed at 3% life, and the evasion too, I'm sure its happened to a lot your getting pewpewed your running, 10hp and the killing shot misses.

The sword in that example has GOF which further increases the advantage of dex because of zerk crits.

Sympathi - Archosaur

laloner wrote: »

The sword in that example has GOF which further increases the advantage of dex because of zerk crits.

Thank you professor, that also is a good thing i believe.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Sympathi, I can tell you right now that it doesn't remain the same as you get higher in terms of weapon attack. So what you saw in your test was about the most useful crit will ever seem in the tradeoff, but as you increase the strength of the weapon, crit continually becomes less useful.

I dunno why, but a lot of endgame Seekers (Seekers in general, actually) have been considering this lately, and I'm not sure why.

As I said in a previous thread, the hi- Actually, let me just go quote it.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

Of course, the lower your weapon attack is, the lower the amount that your strength will affect your base damage by will be, since base damage is a direct product of your mastery, your strength divided by 150, and your weapon attack.

The better your weapon gets, in terms of attack range/height, the more your strength will affect your base damage.

However, the amount of survivability that your vitality adds in the form of HP is nearly constant, excluding the +5% HP from cube neck/R9 recast chest/some other necklaces. So yes, it may be more efficient to add vitality when your weapon isn't too strong.

In the end, if you plan on getting a weapon at endgame that's relatively strong, then the increasing returns from the product of your weapon damage and your weapon attack multiplier from strength (Str/150) will eclipse the constant returns of the extra vitality, and it will start to seem more desirable to restat that vit into strength.

The same [that is said for vitality] can be said for dexterity, since the amount that it contributes to your crit is also constant [like the amount of survivability that vitality contributes], and strength is a factor in the efficiency of added crit.

To sum it up, of course the damage reduction from taking away strength would turn out to be extremely low on a weapon with an attack range of 5-6. Your strength and your weapon attack are factored together with a few other things to make your base physical attack.

Therefore, if you have a weapon with 5-6 as an attack range, changing your strength (if you take off the your rings to exclude the weapon attack added from those) will only alter your physical attack by ~2 per point of strength. But the higher your weapon attack is, the more your strength will start to matter because they're directly multiplied. With a +12 R9 weapon and average rings, the difference per point of strength would be more like 20 physical attack instead of 2.

Base Damage (what is shown as physical attack in your character info): base damage = attack multiplier * weapon attack

weapon attack = attack from weapon + attack from shards in weapon + attack from rings and other equipment + character level

attack multiplier = 1 + ( Str / 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs

So.. Base damage = [1 + ( Str / 150 ) + weapon mastery + physical attack buffs]*all of the attack from your gear/shards/weapon and level

To put a small amount of numerical value to the theory.. Your base damage is mainly a factor of your strength and your weapon attack. Let's plug in values, assuming that we're only factoring strength and weapon attack, and see what happens..

Say we're using a very very bad gear set, and my weapon attack total is..1. Well, at 150 strength, my base damage would be [1 + (150/150)]*1 = ..2! Wonderful. 300 strength would result in base damage of 3 instead of 2. With weapon attack that bad, those 150 stat points would be a lot better statted into vit or crit than using all 150 extra strength for one more damage point, but..

Say we're using an unrealistically good weapon/rings/etc., and my weapon attack total is 5000. At 150 strength, my base damage would be [1 + (150/150)]*5000 = 10000. Changing to 300 strength would result in a base damage of 15000. Hmm.. Now would you restat 150 points into strength for 5000 more base damage instead of 7% crit? Hell yes.

The amount of benefit you get from adding strength is proportional to your weapon attack (which is the physical attack added from all your gear, including rings and shards). So, yes, while you're a lowbie with a crappy weapon it would be great to stat your strength into vitality or dexterity since strength won't really do as much for you. But once you start getting closer to endgame in terms of your weapon attack, the difference in strength will start to matter more and more until it becomes better to stat into strength than vitality or dexterity.

It's also theoretically possible to calculate exactly when your weapon attack hits the point where it becomes more efficient to stat strength than crit or vitality, but I'm too lazy to do that right now.

I hope this clarifies things for everyone.

pinkfloyd77

i aggree with zeon 100%....good job bro

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Good post Zeon.

I always figure it like this....
it takes 20 points to DEX to get 1% crit.
Aside from the increase in accuracy or evasion, that's a total waste of points if it's not going ti also increase my base damage.
Drop 100 points to STR, and get a noteable increase to your base damage, and then gear for the 5% crit. Lots of gear can also increase your DEX to boost your crit additionally. and then there's genie skills and buffs/skills that boost crit.

Whether PvE or PvP, I can't see why nerfing your base damage to increase your chance of occasionally doing double damage is desirable. If you're counting on a crit to win the fight, you're doing something wrong.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

R9 33% crit b:surrender
loving it tho. About 1/5 hits is a non-crit >.> an 'occasional' non crit

http://pwcalc.com/4126c9e888758fdf

im relying heavily on these crits in TW since the frame of attack is very limited. For me its basically i get either 3 crits in before getting stunned or mobbed, or 3 normal hits.

i would think str would do good in duels and pve when time is on your side

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Strength acts as a relatively small multiplier (per strength point) to base damage. The hardest hitting seeker skills (Gemini, vortex ,etc...) as well as your 3 spark are boosted mainly by your weapons attack. So if you really want to hit hard as a Seeker, concentrating solely on strength just doesn't seem to be the way to go.

Oh, and this statement. Gemini slash is the only move that depends very largely on weapon attack. More than half of our attack skills have nothing to do with weapon attack AT ALL. Arme Nier takes 250% of your weapon attack and adds it, Ion Spike 180% if sage. Vortex is 100%. Heartseeker is 100%. Gemini, however, is 450%. None of our other skills even use weapon attack as part of the skill damage formula aside from being factored with the creation of base damage.

Unless your strength is absolutely pitiful, your base damage will contribute more to your skill damage and will be more important than your weapon attack for EVERY skill except possibly gemini slash. Even with gemini, it'd still be close.

Say my physical attack (base damage) is 7k-9k. For the sake of numbers, we'll average it and assume a constant 8k. On a typical strength Seeker, this would mean a weapon attack of around 2000.

On this Seeker, if he or she uses sage gemini slash.. Base physical damage plus 450% of weapon damage plus 5500. So.. 8000 + 4.5*2000 + 5500. Your weapon attack would contribute to 9000 of the total skill damage while your base damage contributed for 8000 of it. Gemini, however, is the most extreme case.

Let's go with the second highest weapon-attack reliant skill, Arme Nier. Base damage + 250% weapon attack + 3980. This would be 8000 + 2.5*2000 + 3980. In this case, base damage contributes 8000 points while weapon attack contributes 5000. And no other skills go any further into weapon attack's favour.

So, yes, it's great to increase weapon attack. And yes, it does contribute a lot to gemini slash and some to our other skills. It also helps our base damage get higher, of course. But in every case except for gemini slash, base damage is more important than weapon attack is, and strength DIRECTLY affects how much your weapon attack contributes to your base damage. So don't think that taking away a bunch of strength and keeping up a good weapon is going to leave you hitting hard because that will result in crappy base damage being plugged in to your overall skill damage.

OIdpop - Heavens Tear

b:laugh i love how people rely on %b:laugh

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

OIdpop - Heavens Tear wrote: »

b:laugh i love how people rely on %b:laugh

love more

laloner

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

Oh, and this statement. Gemini slash is the only move that depends very largely on weapon attack. More than half of our attack skills have nothing to do with weapon attack AT ALL. Arme Nier takes 250% of your weapon attack and adds it, Ion Spike 180% if sage. Vortex is 100%. Heartseeker is 100%. Gemini, however, is 450%. None of our other skills even use weapon attack as part of the skill damage formula aside from being factored with the creation of base damage.

Your analysis is missing something, all seeker attack skills include added damage and this will be doubled by a critical strike. So including the 79 skills seekers have 11 attacks and 5 of those have added weapon's damage and that five include the most important PVP skills. And all seeker skills have added damage which will get doubled by a critical strike. And all seeker attack stances have added damage which will get doubled by a critical strike.

So it is not just 5 skills which have elements which can be increased by dex but not by str, but it is every attack a seeker makes outside an auto attack.

On this Seeker, if he or she uses sage gemini slash.. Base physical damage plus 450% of weapon damage plus 5500. So.. 8000 + 4.5*2000 + 5500. Your weapon attack would contribute to 9000 of the total skill damage while your base damage contributed for 8000 of it. Gemini, however, is the most extreme case.

Your leaving out the 7500 added damage. The added damage plus the weapon attack multiplier can be increased by a critical strike but not by str. Gemini Slash may be the most extreme case but its also the bread and butter TW attack skill for seekers.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

laloner wrote: »

Your analysis is missing something, all seeker attack skills include added damage and this will be doubled by a critical strike. So including the 79 skills seekers have 11 attacks and 5 of those have added weapon's damage and that five include the most important PVP skills. And all seeker skills have added damage which will get doubled by a critical strike. And all seeker attack stances have added damage which will get doubled by a critical strike.

So it is not just 5 skills which have elements which can be increased by dex but not by str, but it is every attack a seeker makes outside an auto attack.




Your leaving out the 7500 added damage. The added damage plus the weapon attack multiplier can be increased by a critical strike but not by str. Gemini Slash may be the most extreme case but its also the bread and butter TW attack skill for seekers.

..I see what you mean now. Before I go into detail on this post, I'd like to thank you for pointing this out to me. I'd also like to say that the extra damage from stances cannot crit.

But when it comes to skills, in order to calculate the efficiency of crit vs strength, you would have to compare the benefit of adding twenty points of strength versus the benefit of critting once more out of every one hundred uses of that skill.

Let's use the most extreme case first once again, sage gemini slash, and let's also stick with the previous imaginary build that I used for the sake of testing. A Seeker with 8k base physical attack and 2k base weapon attack. Let's say for the sake of the equations that adding one point of strength will increase the Seeker's physical attack by 15 points.

Sage Gemini with twenty added strength..
(8000 + 15*20) + 4.5*2000 + 7500 = 24800 raw damage.

Sage Gemini with twenty less strength and one more crit percent..
[(8000 - 15*20) + 4.5*2000 + 7500]*1.01 = 24420 raw damage.

Arme Nier with twenty added strength..
(8000 + 15*20) + 2.5*2000 + 3980 = 17280 raw damage.

Arme Nier with twenty less strength and one more crit percent..
[(8000 - 15*20) + 2.5*2000 + 3980]*1.01 = 16846 raw damage.

Although the gap is small, it grows larger as you take away more strength or add more strength, and it also grows larger as you get to skills that are less dependent on weapon attack.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

It might also help if your math there took into account that when you add or subtract 20 points of strength with a base damage of 8000, that the base damage will increase/decrease proportionately, creating an even larger gap in the raw damage numbers than what you have shown. As you mentioned, it would also increase exponentially again once you add increasing values and/or skills that are less dependent on weapon attack.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

It might also help if your math there took into account that when you add or subtract 20 points of strength with a base damage of 8000, that the base damage will increase/decrease proportionately, creating an even larger gap in the raw damage numbers than what you have shown. As you mentioned, it would also increase exponentially again once you add increasing values and/or skills that are less dependent on weapon attack.

Hmmm... but what his numbers also didn't take into account was the almighty 3 spark.

Yes I know that a sage Seeker triple sparking is a pretty rare thing... whether it be PVP or PVE.

But still.. the option is there if the chance opens up and here is where pumping up strength at the expense of everything else doesn't gain much since the 500% damage increase from the spark is applied wholly to weapon attack only. So even those skills less dependent on normal weapon damage would still benefit the most from refining your weapon to the hilt with little loss to overall damage if you divert some of those points to dex... which by the way will benefit your spark damage the most by increasing the likelihood of a crit... as well as ensuring the blow actually lands (accuracy).

ReMakaBo - Archosaur

Gemini being our "bread an butter" in TW also means the most efficient use of it is on groups of people, rather than single target- So in essence, it don't matter if you have 25% or 35%, if used efficiently, someone will get the crit bomb-

I was a pure dex build once before, altho the crits were a little bit nicer in single target situations, the none crits simply blow- they always seems to lack that extra 1-2k punch needed- And when it came to TW, the crits landed in group knock outs was only slightly better- but the ones getting the none crits were depressing seeing r8/nirv robed people still standing with 1-2K HP to spare- After restatting to full str- with 27% crit, its a rare chance they are left standing even with a none crit landed-

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

ReMakaBo - Archosaur wrote: »

I was a pure dex build once before,

I would never advise anyone to go the "pure dex" route... simply because there is no denying your base damage will be taking too much of a serious hit... which will definitely affect your skill damage in turn... no doubts about it.

My point is that there is also no justification for some claiming that the only "good" Seeker build is a pure strength one... and that moving 20 points or so into Dex for that extra crit point would be unnecessarily handicapping your toon. The difference in base damage is so small that increasing your chance of 200% damage... even if only slightly... just seems well worth it.

ReMakaBo - Archosaur

well no, I don't think gearing and even setting asside a few points hurts that dramtically- I myself have 180 dex, from points and gearing-

Hexalot - Dreamweaver

ReMakaBo - Archosaur wrote: »

well no, I don't think gearing and even setting asside a few points hurts that dramtically- I myself have 180 dex, from points and gearing-

As do I.

That extra 20 points above the suggested "hard cap" of 160 in dex also did wonders for my accuracy as well... I can actually get away with wearing only one accuracy ring now.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

It might also help if your math there took into account that when you add or subtract 20 points of strength with a base damage of 8000, that the base damage will increase/decrease proportionately, creating an even larger gap in the raw damage numbers than what you have shown. As you mentioned, it would also increase exponentially again once you add increasing values and/or skills that are less dependent on weapon attack.

That's what the (8000 + 15*20) and the (8000 - 15*20) are.

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes I know that a sage Seeker triple sparking is a pretty rare thing... whether it be PVP or PVE.

..'Nuff said about triple sparking. Your point might not even be valid for those extreme rare occasions since 500% is very close to the 450% from gemini but without the constant added damage. Even if it is.. Still extremely rare..

Hexalot - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My point is that there is also no justification for some claiming that the only "good" Seeker build is a pure strength one... and that moving 20 points or so into Dex for that extra crit point would be unnecessarily handicapping your toon. The difference in base damage is so small that increasing your chance of 200% damage... even if only slightly... just seems well worth it.

I agree with you that a pure strength build isn't the only "good" build. But you're overestimating an extra 1% crit chance. I'm sure you know this already, but 1% more crit means that out of every 100 attacks your character will land one more crit. While it is VERY nice to have crit, which is why I would advise aiming for it with your gear if it's possible to do so without nerfing anything else.. Having a higher base damage is more beneficial. I'd rather hit slightly harder in 99 out of 100 hits and let another Seeker get one more crit than me than to nerf my damage for 99 hits and crit one more time than usual. Because in the end, the person with the higher base damage and the one percent lower crit will do more damage.

So, yes. I'm not saying that your extra twenty points of dexterity is wrong or that it's so terribly inefficient that you will never amount to any type of DD EVAR. I'm just saying that someone with 20 more strength and one less crit percent than you will have a slightly higher damage output, and that one more crit percent is no more noticeable than the base damage change is.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

So, yes. I'm not saying that your extra twenty points of dexterity is wrong or that it's so terribly inefficient that you will never amount to any type of DD EVAR. I'm just saying that someone with 20 more strength and one less crit percent than you will have a slightly higher damage output, and that one more crit percent is no more noticeable than the base damage change is.

I could see that somehow being formulated into a demon vs sage argument. With sage masteries representing pure str/(or in the case of archers, dex) build and demon representing 1-2% more crit.

Also

ReMakaBo - Archosaur wrote: »

I was a pure dex build once

then I took an arrow to the knee. (still pure dex build)

laloner

laloner wrote: »

I've been wondering about this myself. 20 dex gives you one crit percentage which leads to a one percent increase in dps. I think 20 str gives you 1.3% more dps. But this is for normal attacks, many seeker skills aren't strongly affected by str yet all skills are doubled by a crit.

One of these days I hope someone works out all the math and comes up with the definitive answer.

I was double checking this and I think 20 str might only give you 1.06% more attack. I was forgetting that the formula is 1 + x/150 and thinking of it as just x/150.

Any cool person know the answer for sure?

laloner

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

I'd also like to say that the extra damage from stances cannot crit.

Thank you for the correction.

Let's say for the sake of the equations that adding one point of strength will increase the Seeker's physical attack by 15 points.

I think this number should be 13.3 not 15.

1/150 is .006 and multiplied by a weapon damage of 2000 that is 13.3.