Would PWI remain F2P even if there were No Cashoppers?

crenshaw198

Flying around the Dreamweaver server World Chat suddenly got into the subject of high gold prices in the auction house due to Cashoppers, then it moved on to the subject of if it wasn't for cashoppers the game would be P2P (Pay To Play). I decided it would be interesting to hear people's thoughts about this matter because it is something that should be clarified.

Now i do not know anything about the Developers or GMs, but in my opinion i do believe that even if there were No Cashoppers the game would still be F2P (Free To Play). Why? simple.. Some people talk like if the Developers' only source of income was money being made from cashoppers spending their real money on the game. I do believe that the Developers have other sources of income, enough to keep the game Updated and Improved without the need of the costumers' money. Thinking about it logically that is. An expensive company like PWE would look for other sources of income, they wouldn't just win money from the ingame players. Think about this. when the game started there weren't many costumers, how were they able to hold the company up, Update it, Maintain it and Improve it?

This is just my opinion, it is not neccessarily a fact. Feel free to post your views.

I now edit my post to add that this is my opinion, my point of view, some people do Not understand this, I have to make it simple for them.. Easier to understand than this it cannot get. This is Not a fact.

Pyrostormz - Raging Tide

you make it seem like it is logical that they have other sources of income, yet you fail to say what those would be

the fact is, most of their income comes from the players. im sure they make a little bit from the banner ads on the forums, but that would be minimal in comparison

the fact is, what pwi has is an effective business model, that has proven successful many times over. if people stop cash shopping, then it is because pwi is no longer developing a game that holds their interest, as has happened many times as well

but to say a game could make money without having a cash shop, or a monthly fee, is sheer foolishness

Stressedout - Dreamweaver

Yeah real simple answer to this:

PW was P2P at one time, it wouldn't stand a chance in that market anymore hence F2P edition. No cash shoppers = no more PWI. I'm quite willing to bet on that b:chuckle

Asgardeus - Sanctuary

Easy. If there were no cash shoppers, there would be noone willing to pay for p2p either. So yea, no game.

magicsabre

crenshaw198 wrote: »

Flying around the Dreamweaver server World Chat suddenly got into the subject of high gold prices in the auction house due to Cashoppers, then it moved on to the subject of if it wasn't for cashoppers the game would be P2P (Pay To Play). I decided it would be interesting to hear people's thoughts about this matter because it is something that should be clarified...

I think, that you can't change existing structure and business model of companies - owners for PWI:

Perfect World, Inc. (NASDAQ:PWRD) is a Chinese online video game developer and operator. Perfect World has released six Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games (MMORPGs) and one casual online game since its inception in 1998. With the exception of its first release Perfect World, all of the company's MMORPGs earn money through a free-to-play (FTP) revenue model, which has become the industry standard. Under the FTP model, anyone can play the online game for free, but items can be purchased within the game that will allows players to advance more quickly.

Perfect World generates the majority of its revenue from its online games. These revenues come from the players who purchase items within Perfect World's online games and account for nearly 90% of the company's total revenue. Overseas licensing fees account for the rest of the company's revenue, and consist of fees payed by international game operators who run Perfect World's games in other countries.

Perfect World Entertainment (U.S. Subsidiary)

Created in April of 2008, Perfect World Entertainment was created to distribute games from Perfect World Co. in North America.

Slimblondje - Archosaur

Seems obvious to me CS is what makes it possible.

After first seeing the idea in Travian where you play a simple browser game and have the ability to pay a little extra for some bonusses i got thinking about this.

Now this was of course just a simple browser game, one can develop with a small crew in relatively little time. Imo it was a marvelously smart idea commercially.

Now about a month ago, i ran into this game and was very suprised by the amount of game you get for a free game. Graphically i would say its equal standard with a pay per month game like wow. On several other aspects (quests and items are a bit more boring) it is imo somewhat inferior, but only somewhat.

Finally, i saw D3 will work with real money in the auction house. I assume of course Blizzard will make its % on it.

All this makes me believe this might wel be where the future of gaming is headed.
A long long time ago, in the early ages of gaming, you could get free trials. Just a few levels. Now you get almost complete games and you pay for some bonusses.

I know its a delicate discussion, but i think however there is some evolution to go. As it is, the game is very playable without paying, and those who pay are lured into paying as much as possible. They are made addicted to guardian charms and exp stones. However this is also exactly what makes the game kind of unfair. Now i just decided not to be bothered by what unfair advantages other players have since they pay for my game. But i like the other part of the concept more. You get a tiny inventory, and you pay to get a bigger one. You can play the game, but at some point, you will get anoyed enough to pay. Thats a nice conept because it is not endless and it doesnt really give an advantage over other players, just a lot of convenience. And if it werent for the exp stones and guardian charms, i would have bought myself an inventory stone already, even at twice the price it is now. Simly because when i play a game, i am quite willing to pay for it (but not 15$ per month + the cost to buy the game and expensions like wow) For now however, i decided not to do so since the CS is designed like an addicting thing. I know you can set a border at how much you want to spend, but you know the thing with borders. Thats why i made it zero.

So i am hoping that when more free games will come in the future there is gonna be a competition amongst them that will lead to games with a more level playing field where many people pay a bit. It still could be possible to have some people pay more than others since that is of course what the whole concept is about. You could have some very basic en convenient things that most players will buy and some things that are less important (like a mount that goes just a little faster or looks just a little cooler than the others) for those who are willing to pay more. But guardian charms and exp stones... well i hope the world of free gaming will evolve beyond that

crenshaw198

Pyrostormz - Raging Tide wrote: »

you make it seem like it is logical that they have other sources of income, yet you fail to say what those would be

the fact is, most of their income comes from the players. im sure they make a little bit from the banner ads on the forums, but that would be minimal in comparison

the fact is, what pwi has is an effective business model, that has proven successful many times over. if people stop cash shopping, then it is because pwi is no longer developing a game that holds their interest, as has happened many times as well

but to say a game could make money without having a cash shop, or a monthly fee, is sheer foolishness

Please be aware that No One except the developers themselves here know what is going on when it comes to where do their incomes come from and that is the fact 100%, it is information we shouldn't be getting our noses into. What i stated was a view and an opinion of a possibility.. simply because I and Everyone else in this game are blind when it comes to this subject.... Some people tend to make up things and make it sound logical and intelligent so that others would agree on the particular view of the matter and leave it like that.

My opinion of course still stands. And i am not trying to make anyone believe me like i am sure most of the people would do in this thread. If i was the owner of such company i would definitelly look for other sources of income including another job / task if i need to to be able to hold up the game and improve it to attract more costumers.

It is not an act of foolishness to believe a point of view such as mine when you yourself don't have a clue either of what is going on up at the Developer's position. I have the same possibilities to say that believing that the game depends on the cashoppers is an act of foolishness & stupidity.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

crenshaw198 wrote: »

Please be aware that No One except the developers themselves here know what is going on when it comes to where do their incomes come from and that is the fact 100%, it is information we shouldn't be getting our noses into. What i stated was a view and an opinion of a possibility.. simply because I and Everyone else in this game are blind when it comes to this subject.... Some people tend to make up things and make it sound logical and intelligent so that others would agree on the particular view of the matter and leave it like that.

My opinion of course still stands. And i am not trying to make anyone believe me like i am sure most of the people would do in this thread. If i was the owner of such company i would definitelly look for other sources of income including another job / task if i need to to be able to hold up the game and improve it to attract more costumers.

It is not an act of foolishness to believe a point of view such as mine when you yourself don't have a clue either of what is going on up at the Developer's position.

Why not? some people have dumped up to ~$7k a month into this game, and it WOULD be nice to know where it goes.

maybe it's being used to develop movies in some basement in Beijing. b:shutup

Slimblondje - Archosaur

I think it surely is something we can put our nose into.

We are part of the game, we are responsible for what we do, what we support, and for ourselves. If they would make money by selling our personal information that is something that matters to us. If they make money advertising that is something that matters to us, if the nature of the advertisements is not compatible with your morals. If they make money by underpaying their employees and providing bad working standards that is also our responsibility.

magicsabre

Slimblondje - Archosaur wrote: »

I think it surely is something we can put our nose into...

From Terms Of Service:

4. Propreitary Rights

PWE is the owner of the Website, the Games, the Software and the Service, which are protected by US and international law including copyright laws. All rights and title in and to the Website, the Game, the Software and the Service, all features and content thereof (including without limitation any user accounts, titles, computer code, files, game software, client and server software, tools, patches, updates, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, storylines, objects, content, text, dialogue, catch phrases, themes, locations, concepts, artwork, designs, graphics, pictures, video, animation, sounds, music, musical, compositions, sound recordings, audio-visual effects, information, data, documentation, , "applets", chat transcripts, character profile information, game play, and recordings ) and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively the "Proprietary Materials") are the proprietary property of PWE or its licensors and are protected by U.S. and international copyright and other proprietary rights laws. In the event that you make any modifications, adaptations or derivative works of any kind to the Proprietary Materials (the "Modifications"), whether authorized or unauthorized, you understand and agree that you shall retain no rights of any kind in and to such Modifications and that all rights therein shall belong solely to PWE. You hereby assign and transfer to PWE, without any compensation, any and all rights you may have in and to such Modifications.

You can't do something related to PWI without permission of PWE.

crenshaw198

Slimblondje - Archosaur wrote: »

I think it surely is something we can put our nose into.

We are part of the game, we are responsible for what we do, what we support, and for ourselves. If they would make money by selling our personal information that is something that matters to us. If they make money advertising that is something that matters to us, if the nature of the advertisements is not compatible with your morals. If they make money by underpaying their employees and providing bad working standards that is also our responsibility.

I will not discuss wether if we should or not, remember we are only sharing opinions in this thread, any comments like those would be more effective if posted to a GM or a Developer himself with something like "What do you do with the money we spend on you?" as a title question more or less and let Them answer that. I'm not touching that subject.

Maiira - Sanctuary

i personally wont spend large amounts on a game like some people do. but when it comes to the gold prices... trying to blame them on the cash-shoppers consider this. the people selling gold are in general the ones cash-shopping. the ones buying gold are generally farmers. there will always be demand for gold as people want the boutique only items.

if less people spend money there will be less supply of gold to be sold and less boutique items to be sold causing gold prices to go up. why does gold go up with these holiday sales? because more people want the on sale items. but alot of people are busy buying presents for family instead of swiping their card on pwi. if people want lower gold prices you need less reliance on the boutique. ie... making the dorbs and the mounts and such farm-able in game without needing gold transactions.

crenshaw198

Maiira - Sanctuary wrote: »

i personally wont spend large amounts on a game like some people do. but when it comes to the gold prices... trying to blame them on the cash-shoppers consider this. the people selling gold are in general the ones cash-shopping. the ones buying gold are generally farmers. there will always be demand for gold as people want the boutique only items.

if less people spend money there will be less supply of gold to be sold and less boutique items to be sold causing gold prices to go up. why does gold go up with these holiday sales? because more people want the on sale items. but alot of people are busy buying presents for family instead of swiping their card on pwi. if people want lower gold prices you need less reliance on the boutique. ie... making the dorbs and the mounts and such farm-able in game without needing gold transactions.

I'm with you in that one.

truekossy

crenshaw198 wrote: »

It is not an act of foolishness to believe a point of view such as mine when you yourself don't have a clue either of what is going on up at the Developer's position. I have the same possibilities to say that believing that the game depends on the cashoppers is an act of foolishness & stupidity.

Your foolishness comes from assuming that the devs are the only ones the game is paying for. Between server upkeep costs, the building they work in itself and all bills thereof, paying however many employees (GMs, devs, PR, janitorial staff, etc), and so forth... fact of the matter is that if this game wasn't P2P and didn't have cash shoppers while being F2P, then I can tell you exactly what would happen:

The game would be shut down due to lack of profit. Look at what happened to HoTK and LoMA.

There's no need for speculation on alternate jobs/sources of income the staff may or may not have because, frankly, all you need is common sense. PWE is a business first and foremost and if what they do isn't generating profit then it gets axed. Plain and simple and something anyone with a brain can tell you.

magicsabre

Slimblondje - Archosaur wrote: »

Your highlight has absolutely nothing to do with what i posted.

And even if it did, whatever terms anyone makes, you have social responsibilities. And that is what i was talking about. Just like companies have social responsibilities (something that has deteriorated the last decades but seems ready to make a comeback now) And it is our customer responsibility not to buy from companies who do not have proper ethical standards.

Sorry, but most of you are addicted to game.

It is sad truth.

crenshaw198

Slimblondje - Archosaur wrote: »

Your highlight has absolutely nothing to do with what i posted.

And even if it did, whatever terms anyone makes, you have social responsibilities. And that is what i was talking about. Just like companies have social responsibilities (something that has deteriorated the last decades but seems ready to make a comeback now) And it is our customer responsibility not to buy from companies who do not have proper ethical standards.

You said that we should put our noses into where do they get the money from and what do they do with the money. If you read my reply carefuly you will understand what I meant.

Slimblondje - Archosaur

you deleted your post, so i did mine. And what i am replying to is this line of yours "t is information we shouldn't be getting our noses into."
Yes we should put our nose into the financials of a bussiness we are customers of. It is our responsibility.

crenshaw198

truekossy wrote: »

Your foolishness comes from assuming that the devs are the only ones the game is paying for. Between server upkeep costs, the building they work in itself and all bills thereof, paying however many employees (GMs, devs, PR, janitorial staff, etc), and so forth... fact of the matter is that if this game wasn't P2P and didn't have cash shoppers while being F2P, then I can tell you exactly what would happen:

The game would be shut down due to lack of profit. Look at what happened to HoTK and LoMA.

There's no need for speculation on alternate jobs/sources of income the staff may or may not have because, frankly, all you need is common sense. PWE is a business first and foremost and if what they do isn't generating profit then it gets axed. Plain and simple and something anyone with a brain can tell you.

You misunderstood my opinion, I did not assume that the devs are the only ones the game is paying for.. You made that up. and as you mentionned yourself, all those things the owners of the company have to pay for, I do not think that money from cashplayers is the only income they have to be able to pay all those things. Towards the rest of the things you said, I respect Your ->Opinion<-

crenshaw198

Slimblondje - Archosaur wrote: »

you deleted your post, so i did mine. And what i am replying to is this line of yours "t is information we shouldn't be getting our noses into."
Yes we should put our nose into the financials of a bussiness we are customers of. It is our responsibility.

I deleted my post?

truekossy

crenshaw198 wrote: »

You misunderstood my opinion, I did not assume that the devs are the only ones the game is paying for.. You made that up. and as you mentionned yourself, all those things the owners of the company have to pay for, I do not think that money from cashplayers is the only income they have to be able to pay all those things. Towards the rest of the things you said, I respect Your ->Opinion<-

Your opening post mentioned only the developers instead of saying general staff. The rest of my post is simply common sense when it comes to business that is backed up by actions PWE has already performed (again, I point you to HoTK and LoMA).


Want further proof? Remember stage6.divx.com (assuming you were around at the time or knew of it)? It was somewhat like youtube, only better at the time. Completely free and great while it lasted..... Then DivX had to axe it because, well,

However, the continued operation of Stage6.com was prohibitively expensive, and ultimately we had to shut it down.

It's a simple fact that if PWI didn't generate any revenue and was a completely free game for everyone with no form of cash shop/donations/etc (aka it was nothing more than a money sink for PWE), it would be axed eventually. That's how business works.

Slimblondje - Archosaur

Oh sorry, it was someone else posting a total irrelevant part of some terms of agreement. And it is not deleted

crenshaw198

Slimblondje - Archosaur wrote: »

Oh sorry, it was someone else posting a total irrelevant part of some terms of agreement. And it is not deleted

It's ok no problem xD

Ikarium - Dreamweaver

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why not? some people have dumped up to ~$7k a month into this game, and it WOULD be nice to know where it goes.

Why?
You are paying PWE for a service (virtual goods) and they in turn use that as they see fit. You are not, however, paying for PWI specifically. You are paying PWE. They have many games and so forth. Its reasonable to think that the breakdown of this income, if PWI was the biggest money maker, would overflow into development of their other software. They do not anywhere state that any income they generate from you, me or anyone is going back into this game specifically.
Sure, it'd be interesting to find out. But who's going to go looking? Who cares that much?
This is a disposable form of entertainment. I don't track breakdown of where all my money goes if I go to the movies. And I'm sure not going to here.
If you dumped $7000 into it....hey thats your perogative, but in the end its still just disposable entertainment. You get what you pay for. Some of you are far too much into this to care this much.
Cashshoppers keep the game going. Like it or not, it's fact. They generate PWE's income, so of course they cater to that. Youd be daft to think or expect otherwise.

Manostra - Harshlands

crenshaw198 wrote: »

Flying around the Dreamweaver server World Chat suddenly got into the subject of high gold prices in the auction house due to Cashoppers, then it moved on to the subject of if it wasn't for cashoppers the game would be P2P (Pay To Play). I decided it would be interesting to hear people's thoughts about this matter because it is something that should be clarified.

Now i do not know anything about the Developers or GMs, but in my opinion i do believe that even if there were No Cashoppers the game would still be F2P (Free To Play). Why? simple.. Some people talk like if the Developers' only source of income was money being made from cashoppers spending their real money on the game. I do believe that the Developers have other sources of income, enough to keep the game Updated and Improved without the need of the costumers' money. Thinking about it logically that is. An expensive company like PWE would look for other sources of income, they wouldn't just win money from the ingame players. Think about this. when the game started there weren't many costumers, how were they able to hold the company up, Update it, Maintain it and Improve it?

This is just my opinion, it is not neccessarily a fact. Feel free to post your views.

OFC there wasn't manny Customers as the Game started. The Game was funded from Investors who lend PWE monney and expect more monney back in return from the game they funded.

Other sources of Income ? Wich ones ? PWE have made more games than PWI thats their source of income. But in the end, it dosnt matter wich game, their monney comes from People who exchange real Monney into their virtual Currencys. If nobody would do that, people could not ***** about high gold prices because there isnt any gold in AH.

Its not the greedy cash Shoppers who drive the gold price that high, they just decided for the moment not to sell most of their gold because they use it in the shop for themself. Its the non cash shopping faction who offers 1.85 mil each gold. The development, maintenance and support of PWI cost monney, there also Expenses like interest that have to be paid to investors. All this must be paid by Cash shoppers, monney isnt made out of air and love. Without Cash shoppers no Perfect world. No company would spend monney on a product thats not at least even out the running cost and generate more monney as they invest into.

Imagine PWI without Gold and all things in Cash shop are not available.

No token, Hypers, flyers faster than +0.5 Speed , no charms, no rank gear no mana and hp food expect the things that npcs sell, no fashion no guardian scroll, no marriage packs ....

It would be a different game and the servers would been shut down soon.