A Question plz

Spirit_Healr - Sanctuary

Why do sins have such a bad relationship with clerics? ya know, the mean ones.

It's like cats and dogs. Sins immediately think clerics suck and they rule just because they can beat them in a duel (and we all know there is no possible way for a cleric to beat a sin lmao) and because we suck at healing. I find it funny that they say that because we get focused on the tank, the REAL leader of the party. I have a very bad relationship with sins. I mean REALLY bad lol. What i want is to just smack some sense into their heads and make them realize that without clerics there would be no squad in the first place. Or heals. Or buffs.

So how do i make them understand?

jmmcrary

First of all, let them die. As a retired cleric, I spent far too much time dead from saving some nab. If someone acts like a dumb *** let them die. Some sins are nice, yes some think that they're the 3rd coming of jesus. To be honest sin has an advantage to start (stealth) after which they can stun lock. It's kind of easy for a cleric to kill a sin. You'll need the following: Crab Meat, Herb Yuianxiao, Plume Shell, IH, and Chromatic Seal. A sin will either 3 shot you or die usually. After you're stunned spam click Crab Meat until it cycles, if you're still alive use Chromatic Seal immediately. Next Holy Path to max range, stack 3 IH, then again Crab Meat, then Herb Yuianxiao, then Plume Shell. Next Wield Thunder and Cyclone. To complete the cycle PM them what a fail they are when they're on the ground. b:byeb:victoryb:chuckle

thumbs

I agree: let them die. Let them lose kills and xp or they won't learn.

As a cleric; I didn't care for the aggro pong on polearm, or decaying fragrance. I didn't care for the sins that didn't attack ever on a particular because they'd supposedly steal aggro. Didn't care for the ones that would by erupting instead of using Subsea Strike. - I could go on.

As a 4aps base sage Assassin; I don't care for the idiot clerics that heal me instead of dd/ debuff. I don't like the Chromatic Beam spamming. I don't like them setting BB on a lure.

There are bad stereotypes on both sides, and playing both classes helps some become better at each. In either case, or any time I play in a squad: I adapt to the squad. Reckless players get less healing attention. Bad clerics get a slower more precautious dd/ tank, and some just get a new position in the squad to fill.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Funny thing is I find my sin being killed more by clerics than my cleric being killed by sins. Sins are more efficient 1v1ing mobs, even if they have many on them. So my sin runs in, grabs 10 mobs, and starts 1v1ing with bloodpaint healing me fine... and then cleric starts healing me. Now 9 turn on the cleric, I tele, aoe, get aggro on the 9 but I've lost position and hp and I end up dieing because some clerics assume I'm aggroing everything rather than watching to see if I actually am.

Then there are the aggro hungry sins who pull aggro and die, or almost die, and cause the designated tank to not get the heals because we're spending time "fixing" stupid sins.



Good sins and good clerics don't conflict, though. Here are some tips:

Watch for what a sin damages, rather than just assume he has aggroed everything.
Stack a sin before he starts attacking a mob, then debuff for him.
Sleep mobs he's not attacking, this will prevent heal aggro until sleep wears off.
Don't assume the person with the highest hp is the tank. Talk about this before the boss.
If a sin pulls aggro on a boss and dies and you think he'll do it again, don't rez until the boss is almost dead. Hard to pull aggro while being a dead fish.
Occassionally stack the sin with an IH as a "just in case."

Sins should:
Watch behind them for cleric channeling. Learn to recognize the channeling of heals like chromatic so you don't tele at mobs and immediately get heal aggro.
Dagger throw mobs off the cleric.
Don't shadow escape too near a cleric (unless looking for a laugh).
Ribstrike bosses.
Instead of triple sparking on bosses, try channel canceling and subseaing to avoid over aggroing.

Spirit_Healr - Sanctuary

Sakubatou, the cleric probably got aggro cuz he thought u were gonna die...and nobody likes dying. We can't have that. I would make the same mistake because i don't know anything about sins. I only have a lvl22 one lol.

jmmcrary, ty for the tip! never thought would be possible to kill a sin in duels...

thumbs, in sanctuary, sins try to tank caves... they're DDs... a lvl84 one wanted me to come and heal him cuz he didnt want to **** his charm. He took on like 20 mobs at once and had to wait for him to use an aoe skill or something so i wouldnt get heal aggro and get the other half of the mobs chasing me. When he finally hit them all, i started healing him. So yah he called me a fail cleric cuz of that...

Aizza - Harshlands

jmmcrary wrote: »

First of all, let them die. As a retired cleric, I spent far too much time dead from saving some nab. If someone acts like a dumb *** let them die.

I have to agree - but you need to set some ground rules before the team even starts walking forward and Barbs/Clerics actually have an upper hand in this since most squads can't begin the instance w/o them. So, before you enter - set ground rules.

1 - Please don't run ahead and engage mobs > Clerics do tend to run slower and even w/ Genie skills, there are cool off times inbetween using Holy Path.

2 - If we are on an AOE boss, and you get aggro while I am tanking the Barb, I need you to simply stop hitting to drop aggro. I can't heal him, you and the group at one as well.

3 - etc...

It is very important for them to understand your expectations. Identify the main and sub-tankers, quickly ask if anyones having connectivity or lag issues - take control, quickly ask questions and identify issues.

If a Sin still gets aggro and you cannot heal - and they do not stop hitting, well everyone heard you warn them.

Look, don't be so desperate for any squad. Take the time to go w/ folks you trust or others in your squad trust. Be vocal. This is YOUR time, YOUR effort and YOUR Experience if it mucks up. By doing this, you also help protect your squad. If someone is in the squad that has a history of causing squad wipes, whisper the team organizer and tell them.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Funny thing is I find my sin being killed more by clerics than my cleric being killed by sins. Sins are more efficient 1v1ing mobs, even if they have many on them. So my sin runs in, grabs 10 mobs, and starts 1v1ing with bloodpaint healing me fine... and then cleric starts healing me. Now 9 turn on the cleric, I tele, aoe, get aggro on the 9 but I've lost position and hp and I end up dieing because some clerics assume I'm aggroing everything rather than watching to see if I actually am.

Use subsea strike on the mobs and you won't have this happen. It's a very quick skill, and it will actually improve your bloodpaint because you're doing more damage. This way you have aggro over the whole group without having to constantly AOE and lose hp because you're casting Earthen rift. I do and have never got a cleric killed because I was fighting and they decided to toss me a heal. I almost did one time beause the squad was afk, so I decided to stealth over to the bishops and take them down, only for the group to spring into action and the cleric to come running toward me when I didn't expect them. Since they were afk and I thought I had a minute, I hadn't bothered establishing aggro. I quickly got it though and saved him in the nick of time. If they are grouped together you can sometimes also just get the initial aggro using earthen rift from stealth as it takes them a second or two to snap into action. Most of the time when I've gotten a cleric killed its when the tank asked me to reverse pull and they'll catch them, so I do pull but it ends up being too many of them and they drop.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then there are the aggro hungry sins who pull aggro and die, or almost die, and cause the designated tank to not get the heals because we're spending time "fixing" stupid sins.



Good sins and good clerics don't conflict, though. Here are some tips:

Watch for what a sin damages, rather than just assume he has aggroed everything.
Stack a sin before he starts attacking a mob, then debuff for him.
Sleep mobs he's not attacking, this will prevent heal aggro until sleep wears off.
Don't assume the person with the highest hp is the tank. Talk about this before the boss.
If a sin pulls aggro on a boss and dies and you think he'll do it again, don't rez until the boss is almost dead. Hard to pull aggro while being a dead fish.
Occassionally stack the sin with an IH as a "just in case."

Sins should:
Watch behind them for cleric channeling. Learn to recognize the channeling of heals like chromatic so you don't tele at mobs and immediately get heal aggro.
Dagger throw mobs off the cleric.
Don't shadow escape too near a cleric (unless looking for a laugh).
Ribstrike bosses.
Instead of triple sparking on bosses, try channel canceling and subseaing to avoid over aggroing.

I agree with everything else though.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Use subsea strike on the mobs and you won't have this happen. It's a very quick skill, and it will actually improve your bloodpaint because you're doing more damage.

Yah, I will typically round them up, triple spark, attack till I have full hp and the mobs have all moved in close then I'll use the subsea (tab, F1 attack, tab, F1 attack, Tab F1....) Its those first few seconds where I'm rounding things up and triple sparking that an ambitious cleric might start healing me.

Part of it is a throwback from soloing everything. It becomes a habit to do it the more efficient way, which is single attacking, than to do it the slower way and aoe. The problem is considering the cleric "wants" to heal you, then you have to get into the other habit of aoeing before they heal. I'm good at predicting what others will do and covering for it, but its one of those things that "If I can solo the instance, why does the cleric feel the need to heal me when I have 100% hp?" I only have about 8k hp on my sin, but paint can heal that in 4-6 attacks.

Oh, another thing. I did the math once when people where telling me how "squishy" aps barbs are. My aps barb gets about the equivilant of 2.5 full 15 second IH stacks in heals from bloodpaint alone when spamming triple spark on a boss. Sins have even better damage. With a sin, you can rarely save them because either their paint will heal themselves better than you could or they are losing hp too fast for your heals or their paint to actually save them. That's why so many like bb over IH stacks, it slows down the hp loss, even if it is a weaker total heal than an IH stack.

Bottom line: You are responsible for yourself and they are responsible for themselves. You get to pick the opportunities to heal them, so heal aggro ultimately is your fault. But don't risk yourself. You can always rez them, but they can't rez you.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yah, I will typically round them up, triple spark, attack till I have full hp and the mobs have all moved in close then I'll use the subsea (tab, F1 attack, tab, F1 attack, Tab F1....) Its those first few seconds where I'm rounding things up and triple sparking that an ambitious cleric might start healing me.

Part of it is a throwback from soloing everything. It becomes a habit to do it the more efficient way, which is single attacking, than to do it the slower way and aoe. The problem is considering the cleric "wants" to heal you, then you have to get into the other habit of aoeing before they heal. I'm good at predicting what others will do and covering for it, but its one of those things that "If I can solo the instance, why does the cleric feel the need to heal me when I have 100% hp?" I only have about 8k hp on my sin, but paint can heal that in 4-6 attacks.

Oh, another thing. I did the math once when people where telling me how "squishy" aps barbs are. My aps barb gets about the equivilant of 2.5 full 15 second IH stacks in heals from bloodpaint alone when spamming triple spark on a boss. Sins have even better damage. With a sin, you can rarely save them because either their paint will heal themselves better than you could or they are losing hp too fast for your heals or their paint to actually save them. That's why so many like bb over IH stacks, it slows down the hp loss, even if it is a weaker total heal than an IH stack.

Bottom line: You are responsible for yourself and they are responsible for themselves. You get to pick the opportunities to heal them, so heal aggro ultimately is your fault. But don't risk yourself. You can always rez them, but they can't rez you.

Ah different strokes for different folks I guess. I typically use subsea, chi skill (it feels traitorous also calling it IH here for some reason XD), and then triple spark auto attack. If I don't have enough chi for that to work, I stealth over to the mobs, pop an hp pot and cast earthen rift. Use chi skill and typically thats good enough to triple spark on. I'm rarely without chi. XD The few seconds of immunity is more than enough time for a cleric to get in their heal. I personally try my best to protect the cleric, which is probably why i haven't got one killed by not getting aggro. XD I mean yeah, it's technically their fault if they get heal aggro but I'm willing to accept that if someones rushing in and their health is sinking, my actions may cause them to reflexively heal. Plus, clerics are slow. A lot of times they assume you've aggroed all the mobs when they round the corner and throw you a heal rather than take a chance. I guess I just consider it my job to get aggro before attacking a single mob, whereas you'd rather get your health straight and then aggro them all as it's more efficient for you. And you're right bloodpaint is a pretty decent heal, especially triple sparked.

I guess I just know how aggravating it is having played a cleric for two years when a DD rushes ahead of me, so I can't see what skills they've cast and then doesn't take aggro. So that when I get there, trusting them to have taken aggro and seeing their health depleting, I find myself with heal aggro and annoyed. Besides, not all sins are built equally. Some of their health bars go up and down because they can handle, they just got low hp. Some of them drop like a stack of bricks and causes everyone to die.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

If you rush in, aggro a bunch and don't AOE and a cleric heals you and gets heal aggroed by a mob of mobs, it's your fault. Whether you can solo the whole lot or not.

Kanmi - Sanctuary

Spirit_Healr - Sanctuary wrote: »

jmmcrary, ty for the tip! never thought would be possible to kill a sin in duels...

Genie and crab meat in duel really ?
His tactic could work in pk (maybe) but if u use genie and pots in duel on Sanctuary, most people will laugh at you (you can still use MP pots tho)
Some people already got mad when a cleric heal themselves...

Sleep wont work most of time if they have Tidal Protection on (They even avoid my SoG, driving me crazy b:angry)
You can't 1 shot them if they have Deaden Nerve on .

Also don't really bother about duel, it's just to test skills . It doesn't mean you couldnt kill those who duel you in real pvp situation (where there is no restriction like pots/genie/apo)

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

jmmcrary wrote: »

First of all, let them die. As a retired cleric, I spent far too much time dead from saving some nab. If someone acts like a dumb *** let them die.

yeah, part of being a good DD is being able to measure your aggro control. Going all out 24/7 in any kind of situation is just useless stupidity that even a bot can do.

He took on like 20 mobs at once and had to wait for him to use an aoe skill or something so i wouldnt get heal aggro and get the other half of the mobs chasing me. When he finally hit them all, i started healing him. So yah he called me a fail cleric cuz of that...

wow that sure is a dumb sin. Hint me the name lol

thumbs

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you rush in, aggro a bunch and don't AOE and a cleric heals you and gets heal aggroed by a mob of mobs, it's your fault. Whether you can solo the whole lot or not.

Yep; you're fault for rolling with a fail cleric.

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

thumbs wrote: »

Yep; you're fault for rolling with a fail cleric.

No, it's your fault for using a solo playstyle in a party situation.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No, it's your fault for using a solo playstyle in a party situation.

Its both peoples faults. It's a courtesy of the sin to aoe to allow the cleric to do their job and heal. Its the job of whoever choses to tank to grab aggro, also. But, its the clerics job to know enough of what they're doing to avoid getting heal aggro.

If a cleric isn't paying attention or heals before things are aggroed then the blame falls on them. If a dd dies because they didn't aggro, the blame falls on the dd.

Shared responsibility, because the cleric is responsible for themselves. In fact, I kind of consider things this way: Only I can get myself killed. I chose to follow tanks, or to pick up aggro of mobs, or at the very least I chose my squad and chose to enter the instance.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its both peoples faults. It's a courtesy of the sin to aoe to allow the cleric to do their job and heal. Its the job of whoever choses to tank to grab aggro, also. But, its the clerics job to know enough of what they're doing to avoid getting heal aggro.

If a cleric isn't paying attention or heals before things are aggroed then the blame falls on them. If a dd dies because they didn't aggro, the blame falls on the dd.

Shared responsibility, because the cleric is responsible for themselves. In fact, I kind of consider things this way: Only I can get myself killed. I chose to follow tanks, or to pick up aggro of mobs, or at the very least I chose my squad and chose to enter the instance.

thing is about low level dps DD is that since dps is accumulated dmg over time, you pretty much never know when the hate will switch. There are no forewarnings, such like a ping pong aggro. And IF a mob hits hard, and the barb is tanking smoothly, and a sec later a sin gets aggro and dies... well cant really blame the cleric there :P

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its both peoples faults. It's a courtesy of the sin to aoe to allow the cleric to do their job and heal. Its the job of whoever choses to tank to grab aggro, also. But, its the clerics job to know enough of what they're doing to avoid getting heal aggro.

If a cleric isn't paying attention or heals before things are aggroed then the blame falls on them. If a dd dies because they didn't aggro, the blame falls on the dd.

Shared responsibility, because the cleric is responsible for themselves. In fact, I kind of consider things this way: Only I can get myself killed. I chose to follow tanks, or to pick up aggro of mobs, or at the very least I chose my squad and chose to enter the instance.

I certainly see that point of view, but consider this. Clerics run a lot slower than you do. A LOT LOT slower. Often they cannot tell whether or not you've gathered all the aggro from the mobs when they get there, so they trust you do your job in squad. Just as you trust them to do theirs.

If you're going to take this attitude, you should at least do the courtesy before runs to let the cleric know that you're one of those sins/bms that feel that way and NOT to heal you until they see your AOE for themselves no matter how low your HP falls since you would consider that death your fault anyway. Whenever I get heal aggro from a DD it's because they rushed ahead of me and did this, and I not seeing what skill they used, heal them and hoped they did their job.

The clerics job is to heal, and the rest of the squads jobs is to keep mobs from killing them because she healed them. If you rush ahead, then get aggro of the mobs. Otherwise slow down and stick with the cleric so they can see what you're doing. Everyone has a role, and just like a cleric shouldn't be DDing because it's more mana efficient/fun, a DD shouldn't be playing as though they are solo. Just my two cents, i would like to note that I am not exaggerating when I say a cleric has NEVER died because of heal aggro when I rushed into mobs. edit: Well, that was my fault anyway. Have had clerics get themselves killed because they healed too early, but that's not my fault/problem. I got them killed other ways, to be sure. Like taking on something and doing a nab job at it and dying, causing their death shortly after. Or accidentally running into a group of mobs when I'm rushing to catch up with everyone one else, and shadowing escaping only to see the cleric channel heal two seconds later cuz they were behind me. :P I always apologize profusely when I do it though and am willing to admit when I was the one that caused their death. I don't think they share responsibility just because they squaded with me. They had no good reason to not to, as they needed the same instance as me and I don't have a bad reputation as I don't steal drops and don't take aggro from bosses I know I can't handle.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

oh and before anyone mentions holypath to keep up

theres a limit on how many u can spam b:chuckle while more melee use that + their own speed skill

NinnaXXX - Sanctuary

Kanmi - Sanctuary wrote: »

Genie and crab meat in duel really ?
His tactic could work in pk (maybe) but if u use genie and pots in duel on Sanctuary, most people will laugh at you (you can still use MP pots tho)
Some people already got mad when a cleric heal themselves...

Sleep wont work most of time if they have Tidal Protection on (They even avoid my SoG, driving me crazy b:angry)
You can't 1 shot them if they have Deaden Nerve on .

Also don't really bother about duel, it's just to test skills . It doesn't mean you couldnt kill those who duel you in real pvp situation (where there is no restriction like pots/genie/apo)

lol uhu what she said.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I certainly see that point of view, but consider this. Clerics run a lot slower than you do. A LOT LOT slower. Often they cannot tell whether or not you've gathered all the aggro from the mobs when they get there, so they trust you do your job in squad. Just as you trust them to do theirs.

If you're going to take this attitude, you should...

1. Clerics can look at mobs to see if damage has been done to them.
2. Clerics should keep up with the squad
3. As I said earlier, I switched my gameplay for squads. It took me once or twice of having to rescue a nub cleric who doesn't watch heal aggro to go "oh, I'll have to aoe the mobs or the cleric will kill themself" so I either go way ahead so they can't heal aggro or I do a smaller puller and aoe so the cleric can heal me.

And yes Deceptistar, I am going to mention HP. Its my clerics biggest expense in an instance is constant holypathing to keep ahead of my squad because I prefer to get an IH on them before they encounter mobs. If they stop to DD mobs I heal them then move in front of them as they finish killing the mobs so that I'm ahead when they start running again. Lots of classes have sprints+HP but they conserve their genie for other uses, like amps/stuns/ToP. If they sprint, double sprint, and triple HP then I still should be in range to see whats going on, or at least able to check the mobs to see if they've been damage. If they somehow manage to get beyond that, then they probably never expected to get heals which is what they'll probably get. But really, my cleric should never be behind a squad.

Kanmi - Sanctuary

I dont like being left behind that's why i always carry Charger Orb, being slow butt cleric sucks b:cold

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. Clerics can look at mobs to see if damage has been done to them.
2. Clerics should keep up with the squad
3. As I said earlier, I switched my gameplay for squads. It took me once or twice of having to rescue a nub cleric who doesn't watch heal aggro to go "oh, I'll have to aoe the mobs or the cleric will kill themself" so I either go way ahead so they can't heal aggro or I do a smaller puller and aoe so the cleric can heal me.

And yes Deceptistar, I am going to mention HP. Its my clerics biggest expense in an instance is constant holypathing to keep ahead of my squad because I prefer to get an IH on them before they encounter mobs. If they stop to DD mobs I heal them then move in front of them as they finish killing the mobs so that I'm ahead when they start running again. Lots of classes have sprints+HP but they conserve their genie for other uses, like amps/stuns/ToP. If they sprint, double sprint, and triple HP then I still should be in range to see whats going on, or at least able to check the mobs to see if they've been damage. If they somehow manage to get beyond that, then they probably never expected to get heals which is what they'll probably get. But really, my cleric should never be behind a squad.

DO you mostly run with fac mates and friends? Because to be honest, 99% of the time they don't use their genies for anything other than pulling and running faster. At least pre-100 they don't. IDK maybe it's different in Nirvana. Or maybe it's a server difference. Because on my server they holy path and speed skill into large groups of mobs, do a half assed aoe that only covers about half of them because they don't wait for them to be gathered up (if they aoe at all), and then triple spark.If I heal them at all at this point, it's because their health is dropping fast and I don't have time to tab through the mobs to see if they've all been hit. Just Aoe them. It's a clerics job to heal and everyone else's job to grab aggro. IF you're going to tank a group of mobs, get aggro. Would you be likewise as kind to a barb that didn't get aggro during pulls and only hit one mob a time, so that when you went into to aoe, you were killed? Because it's the same exact thing.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

DO you mostly run with fac mates and friends? Because to be honest, 99% of the time they don't use their genies for anything other than pulling and running faster. At least pre-100 they don't. IDK maybe it's different in Nirvana. Or maybe it's a server difference. Because on my server they holy path and speed skill into large groups of mobs, do a half assed aoe that only covers about half of them because they don't wait for them to be gathered up (if they aoe at all), and then triple spark.If I heal them at all at this point, it's because their health is dropping fast and I don't have time to tab through the mobs to see if they've all been hit. Just Aoe them. It's a clerics job to heal and everyone else's job to grab aggro. IF you're going to tank a group of mobs, get aggro. Would you be likewise as kind to a barb that didn't get aggro during pulls and only hit one mob a time, so that when you went into to aoe, you were killed? Because it's the same exact thing.

I do mostly run with friends, but have no issues running with randoms either. In fact, poorly geared nubs that don't know what they're doing are great practice for getting your skills up and they create "unsual" situations.

And a cleric's job is not to heal, but to support a squad. Yes, 75% of the time that means heal but depending on your squad that can mean debuff, dd, or whatever.

In the situation you used, if a barb didn't grab aggro on everything I would make a judgement call; Let him die, or tank what he didn't grab aggro on. Same with sins. I know most people treat clerics with kids gloves and "omg, cleric's can't take damage!!! Save them" but if the cleric has spent anytime on their gear they can tank damage better than most classes. So I'd probably plume shell then bb and tank the mobs till people got aggro, honestly. If I was feeling particularly cheeky I'd let the barb/sin die unless they grab aggro, making sure to HP away so I don't die too, then let them know what they did wrong and what cleric's expect. If I think it'd be better I may just siren's kiss/feathers/tempest and kill everything.

Put it this way, in the exp room the barb starts a pull and a dumb cleric starts healing him (because clerics are suppposed to heal!) in the middle of his pull then rages because "he didn't grab aggro" even though the barb wasn't finished pulling. Who's fault is this? Same with a sin pulling then 1v1ing the mobs. If they're not ready to be healed, don't heal, simple as that.

thumbs

sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Put It This Way, In The Exp Room The Barb Starts A Pull And A Dumb Cleric Starts Healing Him (because Clerics Are Suppposed To Heal!) In The Middle Of His Pull Then Rages Because "he Didn't Grab Aggro" Even Though The Barb Wasn't Finished Pulling. Who's Fault Is This? Same With A Sin Pulling Then 1v1ing The Mobs. If They're Not Ready To Be Healed, Don't Heal, Simple As That.

+1,2,3,4,5

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

thumbs wrote: »

+1,2,3,4,5

How the heck did my name become uncapitalized, but every word in the quote became capitilized but a few?

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I do mostly run with friends, but have no issues running with randoms either. In fact, poorly geared nubs that don't know what they're doing are great practice for getting your skills up and they create "unsual" situations.

And a cleric's job is not to heal, but to support a squad. Yes, 75% of the time that means heal but depending on your squad that can mean debuff, dd, or whatever.

In the situation you used, if a barb didn't grab aggro on everything I would make a judgement call; Let him die, or tank what he didn't grab aggro on. Same with sins. I know most people treat clerics with kids gloves and "omg, cleric's can't take damage!!! Save them" but if the cleric has spent anytime on their gear they can tank damage better than most classes. So I'd probably plume shell then bb and tank the mobs till people got aggro, honestly. If I was feeling particularly cheeky I'd let the barb/sin die unless they grab aggro, making sure to HP away so I don't die too, then let them know what they did wrong and what cleric's expect. If I think it'd be better I may just siren's kiss/feathers/tempest and kill everything.

Put it this way, in the exp room the barb starts a pull and a dumb cleric starts healing him (because clerics are suppposed to heal!) in the middle of his pull then rages because "he didn't grab aggro" even though the barb wasn't finished pulling. Who's fault is this? Same with a sin pulling then 1v1ing the mobs. If they're not ready to be healed, don't heal, simple as that.

Eh, the way I see it is that every person has a role in the squad. IF everyone does there role in squad, no deaths will occur and potentially no charms will tick. As i've said (and advised clerics plenty of times before) if they won't grab aggro let them die. However I think tanks SHOULD be grabbing aggro. If you're the tank, and you don't have aggro, what point is there in you being in squad? You should consider this, you're way is limited to your own playstyle. The other way is not, and it gives success to everyone in the entire squad regardless of communication barriers, gear, level, or amount of knowledge of the class.

If there is a clearly better way of doing things, that gives success to everyone, every single time that most of the player base operates under; and you do things differently without telling anyone. You should consider any bad results (at least) partially your fault for not communicating to the squad. Like I said, if I see that they haven't aggroed the mobs. I don't heal them. I watch them drop and then rez them and tell them why the died. I don't tank the hits, it's not my role to tank the hits. I'm the support, not the tank. I'm not saying the cleric is completely innocent in that situation, as I said earlier I can see what you mean, but to say that it's the clerics "fault" when you have not communicated anything to them, and they trusted you to do things the most common ways or tell them otherwise (especially when they couldn't see what you were doing) is also not accurate in the slightest.


As for the cleric healing a barb mid pull in big room, that's clearly the clerics fault. If the cleric has bb up all ready and the barb didn't take aggro from them before running into BB, "because the cleric can take it" then it's the barbs fault. NOT the clerics for putting bb up too early. If they played that way, they should have said something. 99% of people do not.


Also you're way ruins the fun for others, because the cleric can't get close to you until you aggro the mobs. Just in case you die. That way they won't get aggro. They have to just sit there and watch you play the game. It's actually the main reason I dislike this whenever I see it and never squad with that person again, even if they are successful. Not to mention, if you don't need the heals, the cleric could be dding. The mobs would drop faster than you trying to solo things. I've mopped up the rest of the mobs after an earthen rift/subsea strike with tempest plenty of times. Considering I was able to get the tempest off and watch 4-5 mobs die before the sin could even turns towards them, that mean that group of mobs was completed faster. So you can actually cause runs to go slower this way as well.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Eh, the way I see it is that every person has a role in the squad. IF everyone does there role in squad, no deaths will occur and potentially no charms will tick. As i've said (and advised clerics plenty of times before) if they won't grab aggro let them die. However I think tanks SHOULD be grabbing aggro. If you're the tank, and you don't have aggro, what point is there in you being in squad?

At this point, you're just repeating things I've already said. Tanks "should" grab aggro. Clerics shouldn't heal until they do... I already told you I humor my clerics and stopped 1v1ing the mobs when squaded to humor my cleric. I think I'm expecting a little more intelligence from my squad than you are, and I'm treating clerics more like players than heal bots with only one role.

I think this is partially because almost every character I have is 90+ and I'm more used to endgame play. Endgame, the lines between tank, dd, and healer blur. A cleric becomes more of a DD/debuffer because other dd's can heal themselves (paint, skills, or genies) or have no problem using pots and running on rather than waiting for the cleric. A mystic, psy, or a wizard is fine for healing in most squads.

Some clerics have insane dd and its easier just to kill the mobs and heal after rather than heal while someone tanks and slowly kills. This was kind of your question earlier about zhenning and the barb only aggros half the mobs, what would I do? Depending on the mob I may just drop a tempest and assume between my other dd all the mobs will be dead in 2.5 seconds.

90+ clerics should be able to tank most things, too. My cleric was able to pull its own FCC. She can tank Abaddon and I'm guessing (haven't tried) seat. She can hold bosses in TT up to 2-2, and can kill almost every BH boss except for pole. And I consider my cleric squishy and undergeared. So yes, the lines of a tank blur, too.


Bottom line is communication with your squad.

VenusArmani - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Bottom line is communication with your squad.

This much I can agree with, it's really key. And what do you consider undergeared? I don't think I've actually tried to tank all my bh bosses on her. I've had to tank pyro, so I know I can do that. I think I can do 79 as well. I've done Krimson, as well. But Nob? The 89 bosses? Hmm, I'll have to give it a try if your idea of undergeared isn't beyond my price range. And I'll concede that point, I'll try to do a very basic run with ppl until they can prove they can handle otherwise. That way I don't have to leave squads. Pretty much all the squads I've been in that I've left have been because of rude people vs not knowing how to play. I know I should leave fail squads, but once I accept your invite i'm your cleric. Even if someone is giving away the big room for free to my level range and I've just joined. Even if the squad kinda sucks. Even if the run is taking more than an hour. I guess it's cuz I run almost totally with randoms.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

thumbs wrote: »

+1,2,3,4,5

why are u plusing an obviously stupid action that only a rare severely tarded' cleric would do b:surrender

StreamElf - Sanctuary

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

why are u plusing an obviously stupid action that only a rare severely tarded' cleric would do b:surrender

I agree lol.. A normal sane cleric would not be so stupid to heal the barb. I do use WoP when he's halfway the pull, but that doesn't grab aggro :P

And imo barbs should use roar (? the sword thingie xD) just outside BB range before coming in, since everyone else would just start DDing anyway as soon as the barb gets close. That way everyone is protected from the start so if they get aggro of multiple mobs they won't die immediatly.

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Its both peoples faults. It's a courtesy of the sin to aoe to allow the cleric to do their job and heal. Its the job of whoever choses to tank to grab aggro, also. But, its the clerics job to know enough of what they're doing to avoid getting heal aggro.

If a cleric isn't paying attention or heals before things are aggroed then the blame falls on them. If a dd dies because they didn't aggro, the blame falls on the dd.

Shared responsibility, because the cleric is responsible for themselves. In fact, I kind of consider things this way: Only I can get myself killed. I chose to follow tanks, or to pick up aggro of mobs, or at the very least I chose my squad and chose to enter the instance.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Tanks "should" grab aggro. Clerics shouldn't heal until they do... I already told you I humor my clerics and stopped 1v1ing the mobs when squaded to humor my cleric. I think I'm expecting a little more intelligence from my squad than you are, and I'm treating clerics more like players than heal bots with only one role.




Bottom line is communication with your squad.

You say that its a courtesy of a sin to do their job, and grab aggro on the mobs that they pulled by actually aggroing them so that the cleric can do THEIR job, and heal them. However, I have to disagree with that. If you are playing as a tank or DD role, then it is your job to get and try to maintain aggro on the mobs that you pull, and to do so as soon as feasibly possible. Nevermind whether you can solo the instance or not. You're NOT soloing the instance then, so you should take the time to aggro the mobs properly, and understand that its not a courtesy, but your job. That's like me saying that rezzing you after you die from whatever is a courtesy, or to heal you once you steal aggro from the tank is a courtesy, when its not. Its MY JOB to do so.

Also, you say that you "Humor YOUR clerics by AOE'ing the group of mobs", and then say that you treat them like players instead of bots. However, they are not YOUR clerics, they are the other players cleric, and it shouldn't really be considered as humoring them by doing the job that you are EXPECTED to do. I can fully understand if they are healing in the middle of a pull, but to just 1v1 after you pulled, and then when you finally do AOE, you consider as doing the cleric a favor is a bit absurd, and unfair to the cleric to do so. If you do play like this, its fine if you tell the squad that your playstyle is different from others, and that you like to pull, but only aggro one mob. Say that you can handle the aggro, and regardless of what your hp looks like, you'll be fine, so don't worry about healing you, but instead concentrate on the rest of the squad. That way, blame will not be on the cleric for not healing you, or for letting you die if you lag, etc., and the squad will know what you are doing. I'm sure that its not just the cleric that is confused once you do a pull, and don't aggro.

Also, you said that clerics should keep up with a squad at all times. Realistically speaking, you're right. However, being practical...it just isn't possible. Just about every class can outrun a cleric, or a mage type. All melee form combatants can easily dust a mage...(exempting the veno who doubles as a melee combatant and a mage.) I do my best to keep up with squads, but I simply cannot outrun a sin, bm, barb, veno, archer without using holy path x2, a switch to my running armor (yes I do have some speed armor on keys.), and speed apoth (which I don't use), so it should be understood when the cleric is a little slow in coming around that bend, or when they get there, and you've already engaged the mobs, they assume that you have gained aggro, and not that you only attacked 1 out of 10 mobs, because that's not logical. Sometimes, there is chaos going on. They try to heal as many people as they can, and bam...they heal you. Then they've got a bunch of mobs headed towards them to eat them for dinner. I've had this happen to me, and I hate it. I look for health bars, buffs, etc, but sometimes, I have to make a quick judgement. I come around the corner, and you've engaged several targets. 9/10, I won't heal you until I SEE you do an AOE, however, if on the off chance I do heal you in say a chaotic situation where I am likely to heal on impulse, then I need to know that you've properly aggroed the mobs, and that I'm not going to have death coming at me, because although you said that clerics shouldn't really be handled with kid gloves, and that a little hit here and there should be okay, I'd disagree.

Clerics are an arcane armor class. Phys. hits aren't very fun. I have better pdef than a lot of clerics that I've squaded with. (almost 4k buffed I believe), and almost 4k hp. Certain mobs hit me for 1k +, so if that mob is allowed to hit me, I'm dead, and if there are two of them, then I'm even deader. I always crab meat, plume shell, AD, run to the tank or another DD'er, etc., but if I mob is allowed to attack me consistently with a "meh...you can take it" attitude, you won't have a cleric, because I'll be either dead or dropping squad...and I've never left a squad before. Part of the difficulty, is because you're expecting that cleric to automatically and suddenly switch between healing a squad, and going into attack mode, and speaking for myself only,...that's not the easiest thing to do. I'm likely to plume shell, and holy path away to the squad to get the mob off me so that I can heal them. Thus its better if the mob is not allowed to touch me in the first place, or the squad will suffer a break in healing, and sage vanguard boosted pdef., possible charm ticks, etc., because whether I get aggro or not isn't cared about. Then I'll fall back more, and keep up with the squad less, because just like them, I don't want to die.

I agree that communication is essential, but in viewing the points that you made, I've got to say, that on this particular issue, I disagree with a lot of what you posted. Using a solo playstyle in squad mode is a recipe for disaster, just as using a squad playstyle in a solo mode is. Yes, we do need to look out for your health bar, what you are doing, and whether or not you can handle it, but you also need to understand what we are trying to do...and not consider it to be a courtesy, a favor, or humoring a cleric when you AOE the mobs that are attacking YOU, so that we can heal YOU.

I know from several of your previous posts and threads that you're knowledgeable at what you do, here on this point, we differ in opinions.