GoF is so unfair

Evinerre - Lost City

There's no justifiable reason to put GoF or SS on daggers. High base damage and high aps was bad enough, but with this add-on it's just insane. I can understand it being on axes, poles, and swords; but no APS weapon should have GoF/SS period.

But what the hell, why not. Let's add a game breaking weapon to a game breaking class. As long as people charge who's gonna care?

King_Asmodei - Lost City

idk if anyone has said this or not but GoF wont proc on caster skills. tested on a ps unless the caster uses melee attacks its useless for them. ofc if pwe added it they'd have to recode so it procs on caster skills.

Okeano - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

How is it a waiting game when you're just running and not attacking? You have to stop to attack eventually, and if the archer can kill the BM in a single stun shot and/or aim low, the range point is moot, since that is just a gear difference. My point is that an archer is forced to kite when the BM has stun immunity, because the range factor becomes moot (if you stop to attack, you get stunlocked). How does range help there? It's the stun shot/aim low that makes the difference, and not the fact that you can get off maybe 1 or 2 attacks by the time the BM reaches you.

In my experience a +10-12 R9 fully sharded BM does not take that much phy damage even with mag marrow on. The problem is that too many stick to nirvana gears and TT99 orns because they only want to APS, and these are easy enough to kill w/ an average nebulous.

And what happens when my precious anti stun with 60 seconds c/d runs out? 15 seconds of c/d on stun arrow and aim low = plenty of time to pew pew while keeping BM in place. Range helps when you can drop and instantly be out of reach while keep shooting.

But going back on topic, yes VIT barb with GoF can hit just as hard if not harder than casters, but the catch 22 is they have to be VIT build to hit hard with Arma, which make their other skills hit weak. A STR build Barb can hit harder consistently than a BM because of their armor break. So... we've come to the conclusion that BMs actually have the least raw damage output (and HF is often too costly and easily countered to use) even comparing to other melees >_> and that's why our stuns are needed.

Broederjr - Lost City

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

And what happens when my precious anti stun with 60 seconds c/d runs out? 15 seconds of c/d on stun arrow and aim low = plenty of time to pew pew while keeping BM in place. Range helps when you can drop and instantly be out of reach while keep shooting.

But going back on topic, yes VIT barb with GoF can hit just as hard if not harder than casters, but the catch 22 is they have to be VIT build to hit hard with Arma, which make their other skills hit weak. A STR build Barb can hit harder consistently than a BM because of their armor break. So... we've come to the conclusion that BMs actually have the least raw damage output (and HF is often too costly and easily countered to use) even comparing to other melees >_> and that's why our stuns are needed.

+1 for the truth

Burnout - Harshlands

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

And what happens when my precious anti stun with 60 seconds c/d runs out? 15 seconds of c/d on stun arrow and aim low = plenty of time to pew pew while keeping BM in place. Range helps when you can drop and instantly be out of reach while keep shooting.

But going back on topic, yes VIT barb with GoF can hit just as hard if not harder than casters, but the catch 22 is they have to be VIT build to hit hard with Arma, which make their other skills hit weak. A STR build Barb can hit harder consistently than a BM because of their armor break. So... we've come to the conclusion that BMs actually have the least raw damage output (and HF is often too costly and easily countered to use) even comparing to other melees >_> and that's why our stuns are needed.

Ok? What happens if a BM gets a roar off on the archer? It's the same thing there - the archer gets stunlocked for an equally long period of time. What happens if the archer stops to cast stunning arrow, expecting a stun, but the BM pops a vacuity/AD/anti-stun at the right time? The archer wastes 1.6 seconds of his time for a low-damage shot, and the BM gets a roar off.

Heck, I chain CC'ed ArmaniEx for over 20 seconds as a mystic. Those are skills, not range, that helps with that.

BM's did fairly well when pack/event gears were the best available and 3.33-5 aps was achievable with those gears. An aps bm like EmoWDF could kill a well-geared caster easily in a single occult ice proc, while still being able to tank fairly well.

Now with the Cancelcast nerf, genie expansion, and the fact that BM's are still stuck with essentially the same APS gears they had over a year ago, they are forced to go back to their intended role - low damage, high aoe CC/stunlockers.

So now you feel you're nerfed because you can't solo someone in 6 seconds like you used to? Guess what? In a group PvP a good BM is still one of my top choices as a partner. In TW a good axe BM is still a beast on the battlefield, and makes the DD's look good.

Should a BM be upset now that they can't solo people as well as they used to? Should they really have the best aoe CC/disruption and still have high damage? A good axe BM CAN solo people, but it takes awareness, a bit of luck, good timing, and patience. But now all I see are BM's QQ'ing that they are useless because they can't be good at solo pvp anymore with outdated nirvana/TT99 APS gears vs other's R9.



The top faction on our server is top for a reason. They have a core of the best BM's on the server, along with well-geared barbs and strong DD's backing up a killer frontline. This keeps their relatively undergeared clerics well protected. What does the #2 faction have? Like half the guild is archers who refined their bow to +12 while keeping their armors +3, and the other half is clerics, along with some mediocre barbs and like 2 decently strong BM's? How long do you think a frontline composed of something like that is going to last against a full Cata push?

ReMakaBo - Archosaur

In one thread

"I can one shot yer HA *** neener neener neers!"

Next thread

"QQ you haz GoF and can get up on me and hurtz me QQ moar, and lemme QQ moar"

Okeano - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Ok? What happens if a BM gets a roar off on the archer? It's the same thing there - the archer gets stunlocked for an equally long period of time. What happens if the archer stops to cast stunning arrow, expecting a stun, but the BM pops a vacuity/AD/anti-stun at the right time? The archer wastes 1.6 seconds of his time for a low-damage shot, and the BM gets a roar off.

Badge, anti stun pew pew?

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

BM's did fairly well when pack/event gears were the best available and 3.33-5 aps was achievable with those gears. An aps bm like EmoWDF could kill a well-geared caster easily in a single occult ice proc, while still being able to tank fairly well.

Now with the Cancelcast nerf, genie expansion, and the fact that BM's are still stuck with essentially the same APS gears they had over a year ago, they are forced to go back to their intended role - low damage, high aoe CC/stunlockers.

So now you feel you're nerfed because you can't solo someone in 6 seconds like you used to? Guess what? In a group PvP a good BM is still one of my top choices as a partner. In TW a good axe BM is still a beast on the battlefield, and makes the DD's look good.

Should a BM be upset now that they can't solo people as well as they used to? Should they really have the best aoe CC/disruption and still have high damage? A good axe BM CAN solo people, but it takes awareness, a bit of luck, good timing, and patience. But now all I see are BM's QQ'ing that they are useless because they can't be good at solo pvp anymore with outdated nirvana/TT99 APS gears vs other's R9.

The top faction on our server is top for a reason. They have a core of the best BM's on the server, along with well-geared barbs and strong DD's. This keeps their relatively undergeared clerics well protected. What does the #2 faction have? Like half the guild is archers who refined their bow to +12 while keeping their armors +3, and the other half is clerics, along with some mediocre barbs and like 2 decently strong BM's?

When did this became BM QQ? It's been caster QQ I believe and I've been merely pointing out why GoF isn't unfair because it's balanced out by other factors. We aren't talking about interval and fists.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Just to derail the topic a bit, I wonder what would happen to GoF APS Sins if we took away Bloodpaint in PvP/added a lesser bramble (since most people agree that the current bramble returns too much damage and would be an OP buff if it worked in world PvP). There'd be a hella lot of suicide going on.

Also, there is a fist with SS on it; I've seen it on an Archer before. Buddha: Peace is the name of it; not sure if it's TT90 gold or whatever, but I doubt that the DPS with it would compare to Deicides. Otherwise, people would be using it..

And just to throw this out there, occult ice should be a class specific skill. Whatever dev thought that putting a ranged six second stun with a fifteen second cooldown on classes who can already stun lock quite well would be a good idea must have been drunk. On BMs it's not as problematic, but can still be used to chain stuns for a very long time if the opponent doesn't have some sort of genie stun resist. And for Sins.. Yeah. Occult needs a nerf. Longer cooldown, more energy required to use it, or something.

Okeano - Harshlands

Occult Ice is balanced out by Badge, Fortify and Expel, for BM at least. Sin's just a f***ed up class entirely on its own.

Burnout - Harshlands

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

Just to derail the topic a bit, I wonder what would happen to GoF APS Sins if we took away Bloodpaint in PvP/added a lesser bramble (since most people agree that the current bramble returns too much damage and would be an OP buff if it worked in world PvP). There'd be a hella lot of suicide going on.

Also, there is a fist with SS on it; I've seen it on an Archer before. Buddha: Peace is the name of it; not sure if it's TT90 gold or whatever, but I doubt that the DPS with it would compare to Deicides. Otherwise, people would be using it..

And just to throw this out there, occult ice should be a class specific skill. Whatever dev thought that putting a ranged six second stun with a fifteen second cooldown on classes who can already stun lock quite well would be a good idea must have been drunk. On BMs it's not as problematic, but can still be used to chain stuns for a very long time if the opponent doesn't have some sort of genie stun resist. And for Sins.. Yeah. Occult needs a nerf. Longer cooldown, more energy required to use it, or something.

A single fortify is enough to break a stunlock chain. It costs 5 wood. The genie affinities/skils are geared so that you can either have a genie designed for stunlock, but have very little skills to escape out of a stunlock, or you can be slippery with badge and 5+ sec long fortify, but be unable to rely on occult for stunlocking. Both types of genies cancel each other out in a way.

Edit: There's also an alternative to an anti-stun genie : faith. Faith purifies any stuns/seals/paralyze on you and prevents all negative status effects for 5 s, but in exchange you give up damage immunity like AD/expel. This means it's only really viable for well-geared players who can tank the damage and retaliate with big damage themselves. The affinities are actually very well balanced, imo, so that you can't have a genie that "does it all".

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

A single fortify is enough to break a stunlock chain. It costs 5 wood. The genie affinities/skils are geared so that you can either have a genie designed for stunlock, but have very little skills to escape out of a stunlock, or you can be slippery with badge and 5+ sec long fortify, but be unable to rely on occult for stunlocking. Both types of genies cancel each other out in a way.

Edit: There's also an alternative to an anti-stun genie : faith. Faith purifies any stuns/seals/paralyze on you and prevents all negative status effects for 5 s, but in exchange you give up damage immunity like AD/expel. This means it's only really viable for well-geared players who can tank the damage and retaliate with big damage themselves. The affinities are actually very well balanced, imo, so that you can't have a genie that "does it all".

I have fortify on my genie; I know how valuable it can be in BM fights. As a Seeker, with a four second anti-stun, a lot of kiting, a possibility to disable the BM from using any weapon for six seconds, and being able to fortify during expel can make it very difficult for the BM to catch and kill. But I can only imagine what happens to those who don't have as much anti-stun potential on their genies when fighting a BM who has an occult ice that succeeds 80% of the time. Still not a huge problem, but it can lead to one hell of a stun lock.

And Oke, I wouldn't count expel as that much of a factor against BMs, although it does help. Roar of the Pride works through expel, occult works through expel, fortify (iirc) doesn't block anything but stun, which means you can still occult, and if you are really close to killing your target and they expel, a BM with three sparks can DBB and then DB, which would stun through expel. For these reasons, against BMs, I save expel as a last resort.

Burnout - Harshlands

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

I have fortify on my genie; I know how valuable it can be in BM fights. As a Seeker, with a four second anti-stun, a lot of kiting, a possibility to disable the BM from using any weapon for six seconds, and being able to fortify during expel can make it very difficult for the BM to catch and kill. But I can only imagine what happens to those who don't have as much anti-stun potential on their genies when fighting a BM who has an occult ice that succeeds 80% of the time. Still not a huge problem, but it can lead to one hell of a stun lock.

And Oke, I wouldn't count expel as that much of a factor against BMs, although it does help. Roar of the Pride works through expel, occult works through expel, fortify (iirc) doesn't block anything but stun, which means you can still occult, and if you are really close to killing your target and they expel, a BM with three sparks can DBB and then DB, which would stun through expel.

Occult is essentially the same as a stun, so fortify works vs Occult, as well as badge. Don't ask me why the devs decided to let it stack with and overwrite normal stuns.

Okeano - Harshlands

XXZeonXx - Harshlands wrote: »

And Oke, I wouldn't count expel as that much of a factor against BMs, although it does help. Roar of the Pride works through expel, occult works through expel, fortify (iirc) doesn't block anything but stun, which means you can still occult, and if you are really close to killing your target and they expel, a BM with three sparks can DBB and then DB, which would stun through expel. For these reasons, against BMs, I save expel as a last resort.

Works well on me since I don't use Occult anymore and I usually open with Roar and then wouldn't waste 3 sparks to stun through it with Bash. It's more of the "stall" factor in group PvP. I didn't list it at first but added for the annoyance factor.

XXZeonXx - Harshlands

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

Occult is essentially the same as a stun, so fortify works vs Occult, as well as badge. Don't ask me why the devs decided to let it stack with and overwrite normal stuns.

Hmm. They should've made fortify work against immobilize and sleep as well. Then it'd be useful against not only BMs, but Sins.

Sir_Puma - Raging Tide

Not sure about PvP use cause I don't PvP/TW, but a good way to do "good" damage on a bm (let's say 3.33 aps sparked like I am is :

Full genie --> Demon spark --> cloud eruption --> HF

Yah u lose like 6.66 hits of ur spark while u cast/channel HF but the 18-20 others will be 2x damage. With a good crit %, I think it can surpass sheer damage of a axe's GoF (that might proc or not) in a 10-12 seconds timeframe.

I think , in the end, if we would compare possible damage output in a 30 mins timeframe for all physical and magic classes (let's forget sins for obvious reasons), both must not have a large margin.

Although, melee classes (especially aps ones) can refill a chi bar a lot faster then a wizard refills his to recast a BIDS. But, one casted on a mob with debuffs will definitly do more damage IN ONE SHOT, then any other classes could do (again except maybe our broken sins) in the same amount of time. i.e counting the cast/channel time of BIDS versus any attacks by anyone in that period, aps or not..

So to resume, for pure sheer damage in one shot, casters can win. For damage over time, it would depend on many factors (aps or not, GoF procing or not, misses..etc etc...)

Burnout - Harshlands

Sir_Puma - Raging Tide wrote: »

Not sure about PvP use cause I don't PvP/TW, but a good way to do "good" damage on a bm (let's say 3.33 aps sparked like I am is :

Full genie --> Demon spark --> cloud eruption --> HF

Yah u lose like 6.66 hits of ur spark while u cast/channel HF but the 18-20 others will be 2x damage. With a good crit %, I think it can surpass sheer damage of a axe's GoF (that might proc or not) in a 10-12 seconds timeframe.

I think , in the end, if we would compare possible damage output in a 30 mins timeframe for all physical and magic classes (let's forget sins for obvious reasons), both must not have a large margin.

Although, melee classes (especially aps ones) can refill a chi bar a lot faster then a wizard refills his to recast a BIDS. But, one casted on a mob with debuffs will definitly do more damage IN ONE SHOT, then any other classes could do (again except maybe our broken sins) in the same amount of time. i.e counting the cast/channel time of BIDS versus any attacks by anyone in that period, aps or not..

So to resume, for pure sheer damage in one shot, casters can win. For damage over time, it would depend on many factors (aps or not, GoF procing or not, misses..etc etc...)

TBH that's an awesome pve tactic, but an absolutely horrible pvp tactic.

That would probably kill most targets you successfully pull it off on, but the problem is that it requires 5 sparks. This means you can't use it at the start of a fight, or they'll just counter with an AD, and now you're out 5 sparks and no genie energy. Since you can't occult or Drake bash, if they press w you're screwed too, unless they die in the <1 seconds of stun time you have left after using HF and triple spark (I'm not even sure you'd have time to do that, they'd go out of stun mid-HF). You could feasibly get just enough chi for a bash w/ 3.99 sparks, but that's then blowing 6 sparks for a one-trick pony that's countered by a single badge/AD/expel/pressing forward walk.

You could try to bait their AD/badge, but you can't really spend any sparks doing it, save for perhaps a roar since it's relatively cheap. But if you can make someone blow genie defensive genie skills without using any chi then you don't need 6 sparks to kill them in the first place.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Burnout - Harshlands wrote: »

I agree with you on the debuff spear is worthless part.

I'm still trying to convince a few BM's on my server that spending 5 minutes whacking someone with a +2 purge pole is *not* a good use of your time as a BM in TW.

The point of purge is to weaken someone down to the point where they can be easily killed. Why is purge awesome on an archer? Because if an archer gets a purge they have the damage to kill the target entirely by themselves, or with minimal help.

But a BM whacking someone with a pole for laughable damage? You need at least another DD with you to kill in a reasonable time in TW, and if there's a wiz assisting you, the wiz has to **** around while waiting for the purge to proc. At that point, might as well just go axe, stun him, and dragon him while the wiz blows a fully buffed target up anyway @ double damage. Or better yet, have a veno come up and guarantee a purge and save the 2 sparks.

Imagine that same BM with R9 adv. purge axes. Red sprint/immuned in to the back line DD groups with a chance to purge on HF, fissure and drake sweep. Suddenly Roar starts to sound like a waste of chi. b:pleased

I know zerk does proc on some genie skills... I wonder if there is an aoe genie skill that will proc with adv. purge.... hmm.

b:pleased

NightLace_ - Sanctuary

o-o;;

BMs have somewhat crappy damage...

Sins outclass them in p-damage by far.

Just to throw my 2 cents into this topic, I'd say without the APS, even with GoF, mage classes do way heavier damage than phys classes regardless.

If APS didn't exist, I'd probably roll a psy.

PSY > SIN b:byeb:bye

Other than that
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>_>