Considering A Cultivation Change - An Analysis

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Jezus. 500 in PVP is HUGE difference.

If your opponent has 10k HP, what is the difference between hitting him for 11k or 10.5k?

Arenaceous - Lost City

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If your opponent has 10k HP, what is the difference between hitting him for 11k or 10.5k?

And what if your opponent has 11k? :O 500 difference with what spell btw?

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If your opponent has 10k HP, what is the difference between hitting him for 11k or 10.5k?

If every hit is +- 500 difference it's a huge advantage for you. To kill some you need maybe 4 hits and it's already 2000 difference.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Arenaceous - Lost City wrote: »

And what if your opponent has 11k? :O 500 difference with what spell btw?

Mountain Seize

If your opponent has 11k, you just bypass their charm b:surrender

Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear

That is a very broad argument you presented. Your opponent has 10k hp but you hit him for 10.5k, unnecessary? No, he's not the only opponent out there. On no opponent, will you have a set amount of damage "if they're a challenge, anyone else isn't worth it". Do you hit that +12 full DoT sin for 20k damage when he has 8k hp? Why did you bother +12ing your weapon then. Ah right, so you could the other opponents out there that have 20k, 30k, 40k, 50k HP.

That's like saying a sin shouldn't bother getting 5 aps since they can kill someone with 4 aps.

OMalley - Dreamweaver

I don’t really ever post, but I have enjoyed reading this thread, and truth be told, both culti’s are strong. I was really torn when I was choosing my culti, but chose Demon and have not regretted it once. The choice ended up coming down to fun in my mind (as really any video gaming decision should); imo, there are a greater diversity of useful skills in demon. Obviously, the masteries and BIDS are huge pluses for Sage, but you should see the variety of skills Demons tend to use. It is a blast trying to decide which skill is best for which situation rather than relying on a few "old faithful" type skills. I simply think Demon is more fun, plain and simple, and I play to have fun.

PS... all those stuns and FoW shorter cool-down does not hurt either.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

^that is how a culti choice should be made. Not crunching numbers, no asking for opinions. Just simply picking the path that makes you happy and makes you enjoy the game more.

Kalishana - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

^that is how a culti choice should be made. Not crunching numbers, no asking for opinions. Just simply picking the path that makes you happy and makes you enjoy the game more.

Right... but when fun=not dying every 5 seconds at TW and being able to be as good as all other wizards/classes then we need to ask more experienced players who will say stuff like:

1. What makes Sage really the better choice? (and then list them below)
2. What makes Demon really the better choice? (and list them below)
3. What made you choose your path? (Where you talk about why you choose such a path)

Cuz like about 2 months ago, Adroit and a bunch of other sage wizards totally got me wanting to be sage but before i even got past 75, now a bunch of people are like Oh hey Demon is probably better... and im like **** im stuck again... (no one really wants to spend a billion years releveling a wizard to level 89 again... or paying a few hundred million to change)

X_Rays - Sanctuary

For 1v1 I would go demon without a doubt. Longer distance shrink, 2 more stuns, better control, faster glacial snare, faster channeling, more frequent force of will.... Sage BID is overrated in uber geared 1v1. Also I notice in PWIC more wiz are demon.

Kalishana - Archosaur

Whoa how could you tell... and where did you get PWIC vids...
The ones i saw were kinda blurry and i couldn't tell which were wizzies

X_Rays - Sanctuary

Kalishana - Archosaur wrote: »

Whoa how could you tell... and where did you get PWIC vids...
The ones i saw were kinda blurry and i couldn't tell which were wizzies

I saw them on the Chinese forum. Here is a random video that I just found. Sure enough the wizard demon sparked in the beginning.

http://bbs.178.com/thread-3267312-1-1.html

Arenaceous - Lost City

http://s1.directupload.net/images/111128/oq7dx8nx.jpg

So many skills to learn. x.x

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Kalishana - Archosaur wrote: »

Right... but when fun=not dying every 5 seconds at TW and being able to be as good as all other wizards/classes

Not dying every 5 seconds will be because of your gear, genie, and kiting ability. Your culti choice has pretty much no bearing on how often you'll die in TW.

And being as good as other wizards/classes really just comes down to the individual. Wizards are lucky to have such dead even culti choices. Both sides really do offer a lot of positive points and at the end of the day you can do just as good for yourself with either cultivation.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Arenaceous - Lost City wrote: »

http://s1.directupload.net/images/111128/oq7dx8nx.jpg

So many skills to learn. x.x

Gratsb:cute

@Mystic-Night

My point was, I already could hit most players for half or more of their HP pretty easily even before I got all my demon skills.

The 500 damage was level 10 MS without sage earth mastery. I never had sage MS, so it is the best comparison I had.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

I remember times, when majority wizards were demons. Then came sage era.
Today I would go demon, but certainly not changing cultivation. If I made new wizy I would go demon but changing culti is not worth. My opinion.

Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Gratsb:cute

@Mystic-Night

My point was, I already could hit most players for half or more of their HP pretty easily even before I got all my demon skills.

The 500 damage was level 10 MS without sage earth mastery. I never had sage MS, so it is the best comparison I had.

Most of those people being complete non-factors. The ones that you can't do that to are the ones you need to worry about, and that 500 damage, if you play properly, can change the tide of a TW.

Arenaceous - Lost City

This isall so completely theoretical. Sure, 500 damage can be a difference - But so can be 3% crit. So can be a sage BIDS proc, or the possibility to cast MS from 35M range. You can kill most opponents as a wizard if you do it right, demon or sage it does not really matter. It's still the same class. I changed culti mostly out of curiousity. I wanted to do something new after 2 years of being sage. And it's fun.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Arenaceous - Lost City wrote: »

I got my full R9 set and things changed.

I've been saying something like this for a while now.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

But now, being able to reverse your path from sage to demon and back again, with confirmation that demon masteries stack (or, at least, more evidence than has every been present before to the point that I, eternal skeptic and proponent of sage wizards, am convinced), but more importantly with cheap rank 8 and available (if not cheap) rank 9, it really makes some of the biggest "old" benefits of sage over demon (sage masteries and the increased 1 shot potential of sage bids) irrelevant. Demon wizards with +10 rank 8 and certainly with rank 9 can 1 shot virtually just as much as a sage wizard with the same gear. On the very hardest of targets? Sure, maybe a slight edge to sage. But for the vast majority of cases?

I would still give a slight edge to sage in TW, and a more than slight edge to demon for 1 vs 1 or small group pk. So if you know you like one of those better than the other, there's your answer.

But if you really aren't sure? I would look at what books are more available/cheaper in the auction house and just go with that, and not worry that somehow you are making a big mistake. Because no matter what you choose now, you aren't.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

I am sage, but with these rank weapons I think demon is turning the tables on cultivation choice for wizards. Sage masteries imo are less important when you are hitting people for 20k anyway - adding some control skills almost HAS to be the right choice now.

b:thanks

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Not dying every 5 seconds will be because of your gear, genie, and kiting ability. Your culti choice has pretty much no bearing on how often you'll die in TW.

Wrong again.

Demon stone barrier and increased range on demon mountain seize and demon distance shrink means that you can die FAR less often in TW if you are demon.

If trying not to die in TW is something you concern yourself with as a wizard - I certainly do not.

Now, as for KILLING every 5 seconds in TW? Sage masteries and proc on sage bids and more chi mean sage should still kill more in TW, other things being equal.

Arenaceous - Lost City

Never said you didn't, I also considered the things you wrote some time ago, if that makes you happy.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Not saying you did or didn't, just saying.

And don't worry, you aren't alone. I am sure ALOT of wizards have thought about it.

Now, trashing all your sage skills and actually DOING it? That's a different story.

IMO, if you want to be a good pk caster, roll a psychic. It's just not what wizards (even demon ones) are built for.

Arenaceous - Lost City

I did it, sponsored by caster nirvana spamming, and I don't regret it It's really pretty useful.

And I think "wizards not meant to PvP" is a thing we will never agree. IMO, assuming maxed out gear, wizards do better against most classes in 1 on 1 than psys. Only major difference is that psys do well against sins and wizards fail horribly. And since there are so many sins it could seem that wizards just suck in general. I am waiting for the new self purify Korren talks about and hope it helps lol.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Wrong again.

Demon stone barrier and increased range on demon mountain seize and demon distance shrink means that you can die FAR less often in TW if you are demon.

If trying not to die in TW is something you concern yourself with as a wizard - I certainly do not.

Now, as for KILLING every 5 seconds in TW? Sage masteries and proc on sage bids and more chi mean sage should still kill more in TW, other things being equal.

When you finally get it, that defense gained from demon stone barrier is USELESS at end game armor, BECAUSE of hyperbolic curve of p.def? If you have 300 more p.def it not make difference you will still have damage reduced by 70%. (EXAMPLE). Because of hyperbolic curve you need much, much more p.def than 30%(compare to sage barrier) from demon barrier to gain just 1% damage reduction.
Example. If you have 10K p.def from sage barrier and 11K from demon the reduction will be thanks to hyperbolic curve the same.( I don't remember exact numbers now, but principle is the same.) Maybe I find the graph of p.def and reduction and you will see, than at the end(armor and high refines) it doesn't make change if you have sage or demon barrier. Reduction will be the same.

Arenaceous - Lost City

Yes, but the increase of damage reduction is non linear as well. 75% to 76% is a bigger reduction than 10% to 11% for example. (Remember that 'reverse math' issue.)

Example:

Basic Hit 10000 damage:

50% reduction: 5000
51% reduction: 4900

4900/5000 = 0.98, so a 2% damage reduction.

75% reduction: 2500
76% reduction: 2400

2400/2500 = 0.96, so a 4% damage reduction.

It makes perfect sense that pdef reduction is non linear. I can also speak of experience that higher pdef does make sense. And not because I changed to demon.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Arenaceous - Lost City wrote: »

Yes, but the increase of damage reduction is non linear as well. 75% to 76% is a bigger reduction than 10% to 11% for example. (Remember that 'reverse math' issue.)

Example:

Basic Hit 10000 damage:

50% reduction: 5000
51% reduction: 4900

4900/5000 = 0.98, so a 2% damage reduction.

75% reduction: 2500
76% reduction: 2400

2400/2500 = 0.96, so a 4% damage reduction.

It makes perfect sense that pdef reduction is non linear. I can also speak of experience that higher pdef does make sense. And not because I changed to demon.

I agree. But as you can see from your example difference between 75% and 76% reduction is very small. And have 75% reduction you need how much p.def 20K? I don't remember. Because 80% is border and cannot have more. Also we speaking about PVE reduction? Because in PvP difference will be even smaller.

MrHanky - Harshlands

yer math is bogus sir

Arenaceous - Lost City

cool, then do the right maths please.

@Mummintroll: 10k is already around 7x reduction as far as I remember, 8.6k gives me 68%. Cleric buffed I am at 10.5k pdef which is 72% reduction. So close to 2k pdef give 4% additional reduction, according to my bogus math that's 12.5% damage you take less. Now talking about 20k pdef... I got close to 20k Earth defense and that's 83% reduction.

Also cap is 90%, not 80% as far as I know. You can test this by using Elemental Shell and then check your reduction with like 80k mdef. It's always 90%.

It doesn't matter if it's PvE or PvP, because we talk about percentages, not absolute numbers.

Edit: And another thing: use elemental shell and see what you get hit for. It's far far less than with 16k mdef even tho its just around 11% more reduction. (16k mdef, my value cleric buffed, is 79%, elemental shell is 90%)

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Arenaceous - Lost City wrote: »

cool, then do the right maths please.

@Mummintroll: 10k is already around 7x reduction as far as I remember, 8.6k gives me 68%. Cleric buffed I am at 10.5k pdef which is 72% reduction. So close to 2k pdef give 4% additional reduction, according to my bogus math that's 12.5% damage you take less. Now talking about 20k pdef... I got close to 20k Earth defense and that's 83% reduction.

Also cap is 90%, not 80% as far as I know. You can test this by using Elemental Shell and then check your reduction with like 80k mdef. It's always 90%.

It doesn't matter if it's PvE or PvP, because we talk about percentages, not absolute numbers.

Edit: And another thing: use elemental shell and see what you get hit for. It's far far less than with 16k mdef even tho its just around 11% more reduction. (16k mdef, my value cleric buffed, is 79%, elemental shell is 90%)

Yes. You right cap is 90%. But still damage reduction is different in PVE and PvP in numbers, because the damage base is lower. In PvP is damage reduction already how much 75%? So if some1 doing to you 400 damage. The gained damage reduction is far less comparing if mob doing 5000 damage to you. So demon barrier bringing far less damage reduction in PvP.
Example here.
sage barrier reduction is 81%.
http://pwcalc.com/1ce0f109e6ecce57
demon barrier reduction is 82%
http://pwcalc.com/1ce0f109e6ecce57

Demon has 18238 pdef.
Sage has 16797 pdef.
So difference is 1441 p.def. But you only gained 1% more reduction than sage. Which is in PvP unnoticeable.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Wrong again.

Demon stone barrier and increased range on demon mountain seize and demon distance shrink means that you can die FAR less often in TW if you are demon.

If trying not to die in TW is something you concern yourself with as a wizard - I certainly do not.

Now, as for KILLING every 5 seconds in TW? Sage masteries and proc on sage bids and more chi mean sage should still kill more in TW, other things being equal.

I disagree for demon stone barrier. Even with my crappy armor it doesn't make that great a difference.
And yes demon MS is great for TW since your farther out of range. But then that's just one long range skill, and 80% of the time you won't be casting that one skill, you'll be using any of the other 30m skills.
Demon distance shrink is also nice for retreating in TW, but tbh level 10/sage does the trick. 25 meters is quite a bit of distance and should move you out of pretty much anyone's range unless you're standing right on top of a caster/archer.

And I do concern myself with not dying to an extent. I don't have the gear to tank hits from multiple sources for more than a second or two, so I have to concentrate on attacking when I can, then retreating.

And I wasn't wrong. Gear, genie, and kiting ability are much bigger factors for survivability in TW than your cultivation.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

I disagree for demon stone barrier. Even with my crappy armor it doesn't make that great a difference.
And yes demon MS is great for TW since your farther out of range. But then that's just one long range skill, and 80% of the time you won't be casting that one skill, you'll be using any of the other 30m skills.
Demon distance shrink is also nice for retreating in TW, but tbh level 10/sage does the trick. 25 meters is quite a bit of distance and should move you out of pretty much anyone's range unless you're standing right on top of a caster/archer.

And I do concern myself with not dying to an extent. I don't have the gear to tank hits from multiple sources for more than a second or two, so I have to concentrate on attacking when I can, then retreating.

And I wasn't wrong. Gear, genie, and kiting ability are much bigger factors for survivability in TW than your cultivation.

Of course it make difference. More crappy gear you have, more difference it makes. BUT not at the end game gear with high refines p.def ornaments. Because of hyperbolic curve more p.def you have, less defense you will gain with adding more and more p.def. With 1000 p.def and demon stone barrier is difference huge in p.def reduction. With 20K p.def is damage reduction from demon comparing sage barrier practically unnoticeable.