Would i be correct?
Vital_Slash - Sanctuary
Posts: 123 Arc User
I recently put this reply to a mystic's question about channelling and i was wondering if i would be right about my statement. Also i'd like to know the math behind this for Im too lazy to do the math on my own and what-not and other excuses people would use to get out of not helping me make sure im not giving the mystic false hope.
He is a Mystic and has 490 magic due to Equipment as he states and is lvl 94.
[Magic > Chan is what i would say. I play a wiz and the biggest thing that comes up is Channelling but its no use due to casting time(animation). So simply the higher magic the more damage dealt.
Channelling overall may shred some time off what you want to cast yet think about it. Say you had a lot of channelling gear but lacked magic. You'd Cast faster but your
magic would be weaker. And due to Animation + Cooldown its less likely to cast any faster than what you'd think and also the chan cap is -95% and the only class to reach that without -chan gear is the wiz due to Sutra. But then you find yourself stumbling to cast spells if you didn't think ahead.
Magic on the other hand is the thing all spellcasters need for many obvious reasons. With your 490 mag you'd hit harder than a channelling geared person. People may say that with faster channelling they would damage/heal on par with you but keep in mind the animation time and cooldown. Plus most of your power comes from your weapon so upgrade your weapon and you can laugh at those who think they can Damage/heal as good as you just because of Channelling.]
He is a Mystic and has 490 magic due to Equipment as he states and is lvl 94.
[Magic > Chan is what i would say. I play a wiz and the biggest thing that comes up is Channelling but its no use due to casting time(animation). So simply the higher magic the more damage dealt.
Channelling overall may shred some time off what you want to cast yet think about it. Say you had a lot of channelling gear but lacked magic. You'd Cast faster but your
magic would be weaker. And due to Animation + Cooldown its less likely to cast any faster than what you'd think and also the chan cap is -95% and the only class to reach that without -chan gear is the wiz due to Sutra. But then you find yourself stumbling to cast spells if you didn't think ahead.
Magic on the other hand is the thing all spellcasters need for many obvious reasons. With your 490 mag you'd hit harder than a channelling geared person. People may say that with faster channelling they would damage/heal on par with you but keep in mind the animation time and cooldown. Plus most of your power comes from your weapon so upgrade your weapon and you can laugh at those who think they can Damage/heal as good as you just because of Channelling.]
Its ok... IM AN ARTIST!
Post edited by Vital_Slash - Sanctuary on
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Comments
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yeah channeling is nice but it should be a fairly low priority for any wizard. Your dps will be slightly better, but we're not a dps class. we're all about the damage per hit. I consider crit, mag, +magattk, pdef, hp, and pretty much anything else worth more than channeling.0
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Lenestro - Sanctuary wrote: »yeah channeling is nice but it should be a fairly low priority for any wizard. Your dps will be slightly better, but we're not a dps class. we're all about the damage per hit. I consider crit, mag, +magattk, pdef, hp, and pretty much anything else worth more than channeling.
^
After 20-30% which you tend to get from rings / wrists / weapon anyway it doesnt make much difference. It is nice to be able to cast an ulti during a seal but... Sutra ftw, **** chan gear, crit ftw.0 -
sacrificing magic att or crit % for -chan defeats the purpose of our class in my opinion. When you're going for lesser damage and faster hits, you're just being a psychic wanna-be.
We're wizards, we make **** go boom. Crit % and firepower ftw.0 -
-Channeling used to be good when you could reach -79% and then with a demon wellspring quaff +20% you'll be instant cast, i.e. 0 channeling and 0 casting time. But obviously this was too broken, so now casting time stays the same even when channeling time is 0.
For wizard, suppose the average channeling time is 2.0s and casting time is 1.5s. I did some calculation
+4% crit = +4% increase in DPS and DPH
-6% channeling = 3% increase in DPS, does not affect DPH
+10 Magic = 2% increase in base magic attack, hence < 2% increase in DPH/DPS
Conclusion:
+4% Crit > -6% Channeling > +10 Magic.
Feel free to correct me.0 -
Deteriorate - Harshlands wrote: »^
After 20-30% which you tend to get from rings / wrists / weapon anyway it doesnt make much difference. It is nice to be able to cast an ulti during a seal but... Sutra ftw, **** chan gear, crit ftw.
^this
I personally like ~30% because wellspring bumps that to ~50% and I dun sacrifice much in terms of dmg/crit/deff (Lunar rings
)
You're basic -30% is this. Its an "average" build, most people have something along these lines.
warsoul helm(3%), R8 top(6%), tt99 wrists and boots (9%), & 2 lunar rings (-6% ea)
Though a -13% recast NV glaive b:dirty
In what base did you start those calculations?X_Rays - Sanctuary wrote: »-Channeling used to be good when you could reach -79% and then with a demon wellspring quaff +20% you'll be instant cast, i.e. 0 channeling and 0 casting time. But obviously this was too broken, so now casting time stays the same even when channeling time is 0.
For wizard, suppose the average channeling time is 2.0s and casting time is 1.5s. I did some calculation
+4% crit = +4% increase in DPS and DPH
-6% channeling = 3% increase in DPS, does not affect DPH
+10 Magic = 2% increase in base magic attack, hence < 2% increase in DPH/DPS
Conclusion:
+4% Crit > -6% Channeling > +10 Magic.
Feel free to correct me.
Edit- So I'm no good at math so I hope an archer will sense the disturbance @ a wiz playing with numbers and come along this thread and help.
An average build (used the NV wand since it has the smallest difference in highest and lowest attack)
http://pwcalc.com/e2b350fb1743c6e2 -10% Chan wep (-40 chan, 8% crit, 9621-9774 m-atk )
http://pwcalc.com/590e10d7a4844f7b -6% Chan wep (-36 chan, 8% crit, 9621-9774 m-atkl)
http://pwcalc.com/5546732efe6e84fc +4% crit (-30% chan total, 12% crit, 9621-9774 m-atk)
http://pwcalc.com/0566792d4ca02fbf +10 mag (-30% chan 8% crit, 9785-9940 m-atk)
....and I dun know how to build a proper formula to test avg dph/dps so Ima leave this open endedI A lot of people0 -
Say you have 0% crit, and your DPH is 1000.
Suppose your crit now is 1%, then every hit you do, you have 1% chance to hit 2000, and 99% chance to hit 1000. So in average you'll hit 2000*1% + 1000*99% = 1010. Now compare 1010 to 1000, there is a 1% increase in DPH.
So the conclusion is x% increase in crit = x% increase in DPH.
For +magic, I just played with the PWI calculator and found that every +10 magic will bring about 2% increase in base magic attack.
Edit: Here is how I got the number for channeling:
Suppose skill has 2.0s channeling and 1.5s cast (total of 3.5s)
After -6% channeling, your skill will have 1.88s channeling, and 1.5s cast (total of 3.38s)
original DPS = DPH/3.5s
new DPS = DPH/3.38s
Change in DPS = (DPH/3.38 - DPH/3.5)/(DPH/3.5) = roughly 3.5%
So the conclusion is 6% decrease in channeling = 3.5% in DPS
So my conclusion of the conclusions is crit>all. Channeling vs Magic is situaltional. If you like to use gush/pyro/hailstorm/phoenix more than you like to use glacial/sandstorm/ultis, then you should not bother with -channeling.0 -
@x_ray
instant cast was never reached in any official server, it was patched long before anyone crafted that kind of gear. you can't calculate what gives better dps/dph between cast, crit, or int(but int is obviously the lowest).
crit = a chance, it's unreliable. cast = constant, it's reliable. kthx.
your theory/experience of dph/dps is as stupid as your claims that instant cast was reachable in any official server.
@ot
everything is situational; but, as the slowest channeling class.. you should, yano.. want some channeling gear. 4x% is pretty comfortable as a mage, imo, but the 20-25% these pwi mages end with is depressing.
also, deteriorate, you do notice more than 20-30%.. i'll assume you've never had more than 12%? b:surrender0 -
Ohh that makes sense.
...I never was good at math
Though the problem I see in all of it that you assume everyone has the same build (granted I did too with my other examples)
but say someone to get as much crit as they could, vs someone aiming for more channeling
like http://pwcalc.com/081db52ca7e72d37 (crit)
and http://pwcalc.com/f5489b5c2b33b03a (-chan)I A lot of people0 -
@x_ray
instant cast was never reached in any official server, it was patched long before anyone crafted that kind of gear. you can't calculate what gives better dps/dph between cast, crit, or int(but int is obviously the lowest).
crit = a chance, it's unreliable. cast = constant, it's reliable. kthx.
your theory/experience of dph/dps is as stupid as your claims that instant cast was reachable in any official server.
@ot
everything is situational; but, as the slowest channeling class.. you should, yano.. want some channeling gear. 4x% is pretty comfortable as a mage, imo, but the 20-25% these pwi mages end with is depressing.
also, deteriorate, you do notice more than 20-30%.. i'll assume you've never had more than 12%? b:surrender
I disagree. Spike damage is unreliable in pk but that's what you need to bypass a charm tick. That's just my opinion.0 -
Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »Ohh that makes sense.
...I never was good at math
Though the problem I see in all of it that you assume everyone has the same build (granted I did too with my other examples)
but say someone to get as much crit as they could, vs someone aiming for more channeling
like http://pwcalc.com/081db52ca7e72d37 (crit)
and http://pwcalc.com/f5489b5c2b33b03a (-chan)
What I meant was 4% increase in crit is better than -6% channeling in general. If I have 40% crit, I will be able to 1-shot people a lot more. That's what wizards are for: 1-shotting people. If you want more channeling, you can always use instant cast pots, as well as essential sutra. DPS-wise, psychic does better. b:thanks0 -
@x_ray
instant cast was never reached in any official server, it was patched long before anyone crafted that kind of gear. you can't calculate what gives better dps/dph between cast, crit, or int(but int is obviously the lowest).
crit = a chance, it's unreliable. cast = constant, it's reliable. kthx.
your theory/experience of dph/dps is as stupid as your claims that instant cast was reachable in any official server.
@ot
everything is situational; but, as the slowest channeling class.. you should, yano.. want some channeling gear. 4x% is pretty comfortable as a mage, imo, but the 20-25% these pwi mages end with is depressing.
also, deteriorate, you do notice more than 20-30%.. i'll assume you've never had more than 12%? b:surrender
Ive messed with 50% before. The losses in defence arnt worth it. As for crits, they become pseudo reliable. You dont bank on a BIDS crit with 5% crit, however you can rely on getting something to crit in a Sutra chain failry often at 20% crit.
Most gear that comes with crit or atk levels is damn good gear. Most chan is absolute ****.0 -
Deteriorate - Harshlands wrote: »Ive messed with 50% before. The losses in defence arnt worth it. As for crits, they become pseudo reliable. You dont bank on a BIDS crit with 5% crit, however you can rely on getting something to crit in a Sutra chain failry often at 20% crit.
Most gear that comes with crit or atk levels is damn good gear. Most chan is absolute ****.
My purify mage should have around 50% with 2 ohys ornies and full g 15 armor oncee I finish it at no loss to mag attack hp or crit...
Then again I'm weird.Gifs are hard to make work here0 -
@x_ray:
until you've done endgame pvp, don't try to argue about it.Deteriorate - Harshlands wrote: »Ive messed with 50% before. The losses in defence arnt worth it. As for crits, they become pseudo reliable. You dont bank on a BIDS crit with 5% crit, however you can rely on getting something to crit in a Sutra chain failry often at 20% crit.
Most gear that comes with crit or atk levels is damn good gear. Most chan is absolute ****.
I'll assume you've never done pvp or used endgame gear?
I can have 45% cast with 18% crit. I don't cash shop, so a +12 set isn't really in my reaching range, but I can still have over 10k hp with a +10 set. I'll settle with 73 atk levels and 45 defense levels. my 20k max matk? that's higher than full rank 9 characters.. my pdef offers about 8% more reduction than these full +12 people as well.. what am i loosing exactly?
ah.. some attack levels(about 30-35), when a +7 r9 sword w/ 30 atk levels 1 shots 90% of the server with gush anyway.
b:shutup I'm also not sage.0 -
@x_ray:
until you've done endgame pvp, don't try to argue about it.
I'll assume you've never done pvp or used endgame gear?
I can have 45% cast with 18% crit. I don't cash shop, so a +12 set isn't really in my reaching range, but I can still have over 10k hp with a +10 set. I'll settle with 73 atk levels and 45 defense levels. my 20k max matk? that's higher than full rank 9 characters.. my pdef offers about 8% more reduction than these full +12 people as well.. what am i loosing exactly?
ah.. some attack levels(about 30-35), when a +7 r9 sword w/ 30 atk levels 1 shots 90% of the server with gush anyway.
b:shutup I'm also not sage.
Stop assuming ****.
And rank IX doesnt count, its a waste of space and a pointless addition. (imo of course). Its not like, as you pointed out, you need to crit much to kill anyone. Cept other R9s. Which wouldnt be there if noone had it.
Either way, go and enjoy your opinion. You can channel fast and il oneshot frequently, woooo.
Never assumed you were sage.0 -
funny story:
you cast slow and one shot frequently
i cast fast and one shot frequently(more frequently if you you consider faster kills)0 -
funny story:
you cast slow and one shot frequently
i cast fast and one shot frequently(more frequently if you you consider faster kills)Deteriorate - Harshlands wrote: »Stop assuming ****.
And rank IX doesnt count, its a waste of space and a pointless addition. (imo of course). Its not like, as you pointed out, you need to crit much to kill anyone. Cept other R9s. Which wouldnt be there if noone had it..
Prof don't you read?
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@Op
as we all posted around -30% is the avg, some prefer more, others like more crit instead. It's a personal choice thing.
personally I'm aiming for 45% with a 13% crit rateI A lot of people0 -
i read quite well, thank you; however, i don't think you do. nothing in the 2 post you quoted imply i misunderstood anything he said.0
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i read quite well, thank you; however, i don't think you do. nothing in the 2 post you quoted imply i misunderstood anything he said.
Than you misinterpret because you're pushing an argument that's ended. Ya'know the whole, who cares if ya can cast fast and 1-shot people you have R9 its an OP and pointless addition to the game.I A lot of people0 -
Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »Than you misinterpret because you're pushing an argument that's ended. Ya'know the whole, who cares if ya can cast fast and 1-shot people you have R9 its an OP and pointless addition to the game.
This. You get 2% crit, 10% chan, 205HP, 30 atk levels and 11 MAg. Theres no choice, that covers every base, the channeling one more than anything else.
Dont know what im aiming for anymore, depends on how the adds work out on the R8 recast armor. I suspect itl be mix+match but im going for purify on weapon so il likely not see much crit aside masteries and rings. Unless I shard Primevils, which I might do.0 -
Why is 4% crit being compared to -6%ch? -6% is extremely common; 4% crit is RARE! Also; many end game equips come with both -ch and crit.
Many don't seem to understand that -ch helps survival. It's not just about evasion, HP, and defense. Also: The toon that can 1 shot first is the winner.
Consider that crit is based on percent. Some argue that we aren't DPS toons and then go on to compare crit dps vs -ch! If you add 1% crit; you only have 1 in 100 chance of using it, and you're relying totally on luck!
I made a Mystic partly because I could share equips with it. The Mystic benefits far less from -ch equips as most of the time the skills I'm using on Mystic channel very fast already. One thing we have over Psy's is Undine Strike. -Ch allows us to get more hits in that limited time.
Dragon's Breath isn't very dependent on -ch, but it's mostly good for Rebirth and there comes a point in Rebirth that your dps isn't such an issue.0 -
roll wiz for tw for lucky group kills..roll archer for better range and dpsb:chuckleThis game is like washing hair with shampoo... Rinse and repeat if desired.
Proud owner of many mains.101 bm,101 seeker,101 demon sin,100 sage sin,101 archer,101 barb,100 cleric,100 wiz( first toon since sept 08 finally made it in 2013)newly added mystic 100 HA,72 psy.0 -
@prof
At first I thought he had something constructive to say. Now I'm disappointed to find that all his comments were similar to "this is stupid," or "I'm more experienced than you so you should be quiet." So I'll not waste any more time trying to reason with a fool who is so full of himself.0 -
Why is 4% crit being compared to -6%ch? -6% is extremely common; 4% crit is RARE! Also; many end game equips come with both -ch and crit.
because I can in a theoretical point of view. Also, game equips are changing if you notice, starting with the new rank8 recast.Consider that crit is based on percent. Some argue that we aren't DPS toons and then go on to compare crit dps vs -ch! If you add 1% crit; you only have 1 in 100 chance of using it, and you're relying totally on luck!
Similarly, if you add 1% channeling, will that make you cast sandstorm/snare a lot faster?
Just my thoughts.0 -
other than tomes theres no -1% chan item,X_Rays - Sanctuary wrote: »because I can in a theoretical point of view. Also, game equips are changing if you notice, starting with the new rank8 recast.
Similarly, if you add 1% channeling, will that make you cast sandstorm/snare a lot faster?
Just my thoughts.
it better to compare 1% crit to -3% chan
or 2% crit to -6%
or 4% crit to -10%I A lot of people0 -
Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »other than tomes theres no -1% chan item,
it better to compare 1% crit to -3% chan
or 2% crit to -6%
or 4% crit to -10%
In that case, channeling is better than crit. b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
**** - Harshlands wrote: »In that case, channeling is better than crit. b:chuckle
Too lazy to do the calculation again. but intuitively I believe you.
0 -
X_Rays - Sanctuary wrote: »Say you have 0% crit, and your DPH is 1000.
Suppose your crit now is 1%, then every hit you do, you have 1% chance to hit 2000, and 99% chance to hit 1000. So in average you'll hit 2000*1% + 1000*99% = 1010. Now compare 1010 to 1000, there is a 1% increase in DPH.
So the conclusion is x% increase in crit = x% increase in DPH...
No, it is so:
x% increase in crit = x% increase in DPS,
because you can't be sure, that every other hit will be with crit, but you can be sure, that among every 100 hits
x hits will be with crit (in average).X_Rays - Sanctuary wrote: »...
Edit: Here is how I got the number for channeling:
Suppose skill has 2.0s channeling and 1.5s cast (total of 3.5s)
After -6% channeling, your skill will have 1.88s channeling, and 1.5s cast (total of 3.38s)
original DPS = DPH/3.5s
new DPS = DPH/3.38s
Change in DPS = (DPH/3.38 - DPH/3.5)/(DPH/3.5) = roughly 3.5%
So the conclusion is 6% decrease in channeling = 3.5% in DPS
So my conclusion of the conclusions is crit>all. Channeling vs Magic is situaltional. If you like to use gush/pyro/hailstorm/phoenix more than you like to use glacial/sandstorm/ultis, then you should not bother with -channeling.
You forget, that hailstorm/phoenix have long cooldown time, gush/pyro have cooldown time also, so Wizard must use other skills too.
Also, for Pyrogram with channeling time 1.5 and cast time 0.8 dps increase from first -6% channeling will be +4.1%, but for first -50% channeling will be 48.3%. You can't say which will be coordinates for next point of curve using 1 point (or even 2 points) of same curve (look at it yourself if you can't predict result: Damage increase dependent from channeling for Pyrogram - up to [100%+142%] = 242% total dps with increase from -channeling).
Divine Pyrogram/Glacial/sandstorm/ultis are most powerful (per hit) Wizard's skills with longest channeling time and if we will remove this channeling time, we can increase our dps at least twice (without may be or sometimes like for crit).
More, it is not possible to build Wizard with 90% crit, but it is possible to build ~90% channeling Wizard (although this is very expensive).Lenestro - Sanctuary wrote: »yeah channeling is nice but it should be a fairly low priority for any wizard. Your dps will be slightly better, but we're not a dps class. we're all about the damage per hit. I consider crit, mag, +magattk, pdef, hp, and pretty much anything else worth more than channeling.
If we can do our dps better, then we can be compared by dps with other classes ... and we are dps class.
Look at -Channeling vs. Critical chance damage increase comparison for formulas.Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »...
....and I dun know how to build a proper formula to test avg dph/dps so Ima leave this open ended
Crit% damage increase output is less than channeling% damage increase output since moment when
(ChannelingTime+CastTime)/(ChannelingTime*(100-Channeling%)/100+CastTime)>1 or >100%, so total damage will be doubled at least.
This is true for each other spell, where (ChannelingTime/CastTime)>1:
Divine Pyrogram, Pyrogram, Stone Rain, Sandstorm, Glacial Snare, Black Ice Dragon Strike, Blade Tempest, Mountain's Seize.
Now, look at possible bonuses:
for crit: +1%,+2%,+3% ...
for channeling: -3%,-6% ...
If I now have +3% crit and -15% channeling, then channeling for me is much better then crit.
Now, about magic.
+10 magic(+5 magic and +5 magic) is rare bonus, which is equivalent to ~2% increase in damage output.
From other side ... -3% channeling can be found for caster class and can be compared to ~3% increase in damage output for some spells.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
the.. argument has ended? it seems to still be going to me.Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »Than you misinterpret because you're pushing an argument that's ended. Ya'know the whole, who cares if ya can cast fast and 1-shot people you have R9 its an OP and pointless addition to the game.
before r9 even existed, many older members of this forum know that i used the 7numen sword to fight using normal skills use and a r8 sword for casting dooms/sutra. r9 has eliminated my need for 2 weapons, which i highly disagree with, but it's still there. no reason to pretend it doesn't exist.Deteriorate - Harshlands wrote: »This. You get 2% crit, 10% chan, 205HP, 30 atk levels and 11 MAg. Theres no choice, that covers every base, the channeling one more than anything else.
Dont know what im aiming for anymore, depends on how the adds work out on the R8 recast armor. I suspect itl be mix+match but im going for purify on weapon so il likely not see much crit aside masteries and rings. Unless I shard Primevils, which I might do.
this has nothing to do with r9 lol
a refined mage hits so unbelievably hard that stacking crit is pointless, because you 1 shot nearly everything without one. i used r9 as an example because it's mainstream. +7 r9 sword 1 shots 90% of lost city with gush. if that's such a troubling statement for you both, a +7 r9 sword is compared to a +10 r8 sword with damage(attack levels included).
how common is +10 r8? that's more mainstream than r9, and cost less.
b:surrender i can't figure out what xray is trying to say now0 -
I wish I lived in your world prof, it seems awesome.0
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X_Rays - Sanctuary wrote: »because I can in a theoretical point of view. Also, game equips are changing if you notice, starting with the new rank8 recast.
Similarly, if you add 1% channeling, will that make you cast sandstorm/snare a lot faster?
Just my thoughts.
You're just playing the numbers game. The only equips I know that yield -1%ch are high end tomes.0
This discussion has been closed.
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