How to nerf Assassins

sachelfunlol

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yup, took just an average number, 75k, like I've said, not even trying too much. Can you fail more on reading comprehension? I also have 3 other toons (r8 wiz, 5 aps bm, r8 cleric) so I have a pretty good grasp of what's going on at endgame. What this sin can do, and he's the worst equipped with the worst defenses out of the 4 just makes any other class useless...oh well , yeah, maybe good for buff wh*res and the occasional BB. And I'm currently raising another sin on a friend's account, to basically cut in half my farming time.

Yup, no, I don't understand the assassin class, what it can do and what it can't. Nope, not at all. Good thing someone like you who capped at 2.8 aps can get the most out of it. Kewl, keep it up.
/sarcasm.

No you only understand what they can do, not what they are. And no R8 sins are not capped at 2.8 aps they are capped at 2.86 unsparked and 4 sparked and do more damage than most 5aps sins around, so yeah move along.

Mooooooooo - Lost City

sachelfunlol wrote: »

No you only understand what they can do, not what they are. And no R8 sins are not capped at 2.8 aps they are capped at 2.86 unsparked and 4 sparked and do more damage than most 5aps sins around, so yeah move along.

if you are doing more damage sparked with 4 aps using r8 daggers than most (> 50%) 5aps sins around, then I can logically conclude that you are an idiot.

Proof:

5aps sins use NV first cast or second cast with -0.05 daggers. Very very few sins that can afford max interval and NV daggers will refine them to less than +10.

Therefore +10 first cast NV dagger dps is below the average of all 5aps sins, so we use this as a lower bound and we see that the dps in demon spark (not considering atk levels since it's the same for NV or R8 dagger) according to the stats here are http://pwcalc.com/cede3ce200f9603d is:
(15620+18606)/2 * 1.38 * 5.0 = 118079

Now keeping every other piece of gear the same and changing the NV dagger to R8. we find the minimum refinement on the R8 dagger that would would beat the above dps while still being 4.0 demon sparked is this at +11 here http://pwcalc.com/5550b3b3160f7bf3 with a dps of:
(17505+24689)/2 * 1.41 * 4.0 = 118987

Of course this is assuming he will still be perma sparking at 4.0, which is NEARLY true so we'll just give you benefit of the doubt.

Now why you would +11 or +12 an R8 dagger (which I'm sure you will agree logically concludes from your statement that you out dps most 5.0 sins) is beyond me, but the fact that you would spend at least 300m worth of refines on a dagger that is not even nearly the best shows that you are an idiot.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

sachelfunlol wrote: »

No you only understand what they can do, not what they are. And no R8 sins are not capped at 2.8 aps they are capped at 2.86 unsparked and 4 sparked and do more damage than most 5aps sins around, so yeah move along.

wow, so i know what a sin can do, but i don't understand the metagame and what is their contribution to the greater good in all this.
4 aps r8 do more damage than most sins around? how many g13 have you seen below +10 refines? how many r8 over 10?
so yeah, move along, you have no idea what you're talking about. None, nada, zip.
stop writting totally re.tard posts and follow your advice: move along, minesweeper and solitaire challenges are waiting ahead of you

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wow, so i know what a sin can do, but i don't understand the metagame and what is their contribution to the greater good in all this.
4 aps r8 do more damage than most sins around? how many g13 have you seen below +10 refines? how many r8 over 10?
so yeah, move along, you have no idea what you're talking about. None, nada, zip.
stop writting totally re.tard posts and follow your advice: move along, minesweeper and solitaire challenges are waiting ahead of you

I see a ton of <+5 g13s lol. and my 4 aps r8 tanks most nirv runs over g13s, unless the sin is a g15/r9 sin. then i dont tank q.q

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

if you are doing more damage sparked with 4 aps using r8 daggers than most (> 50%) 5aps sins around, then I can logically conclude that you are an idiot.

Proof:

5aps sins use NV first cast or second cast with -0.05 daggers. Very very few sins that can afford max interval and NV daggers will refine them to less than +10.

Therefore +10 first cast NV dagger dps is below the average of all 5aps sins, so we use this as a lower bound and we see that the dps in demon spark (not considering atk levels since it's the same for NV or R8 dagger) according to the stats here are http://pwcalc.com/cede3ce200f9603d is:
(15620+18606)/2 * 1.38 * 5.0 = 118079

Now keeping every other piece of gear the same and changing the NV dagger to R8. we find the minimum refinement on the R8 dagger that would would beat the above dps while still being 4.0 demon sparked is this at +11 here http://pwcalc.com/5550b3b3160f7bf3 with a dps of:
(17505+24689)/2 * 1.41 * 4.0 = 118987

Of course this is assuming he will still be perma sparking at 4.0, which is NEARLY true so we'll just give you benefit of the doubt.

Now why you would +11 or +12 an R8 dagger (which I'm sure you will agree logically concludes from your statement that you out dps most 5.0 sins) is beyond me, but the fact that you would spend at least 300m worth of refines on a dagger that is not even nearly the best shows that you are an idiot.

You're comparing a weapon with a 100% chance at 2 sockets with a weapon with a 10% chance of 2 sockets. 90% of G13 vana daggers will actually do 112,943 dps while 2 socket rank 8 +10 does 111,824. A difference of less than 1%.

A few things that are wrong with this is wolf emblem favors the higher crit rate of Rank 8 daggers since WE only effects critical hits. And as you pointed out, 4.0 is not really straight dps calcs because any skill usage means you either have to use a chi skill or fall short of permaspark, favoring G13s. A G13 user has an easier time permasparking while using skills and a G13 user has the option of dropping the tt99 ornies for something better if they have a tome.

Lastly, you made it sound like higher refines favor Rank 8, when in actuality rank 8 has a higher base attack but refines poorly, while G13 has a weaker hit but refines better. Equal refines on anything less than +10 actually favors rank 8.

All in all, its almost equal and I would fully expect a rank 8 sin to out dd a G13 sin and visa versa.

The relevance to this post would be rank 8 has a better dph and would be favorable to pvp because of its stronger spike hits. You are more likely to see the 20k+ hits in pvp using rank 8 over G13. Summation, G13 for pve but Rank 8 for pvp.

sachelfunlol

Mooooooooo - Lost City wrote: »

if you are doing more damage sparked with 4 aps using r8 daggers than most (> 50%) 5aps sins around, then I can logically conclude that you are an idiot.

Proof:

5aps sins use NV first cast or second cast with -0.05 daggers. Very very few sins that can afford max interval and NV daggers will refine them to less than +10.

Therefore +10 first cast NV dagger dps is below the average of all 5aps sins, so we use this as a lower bound and we see that the dps in demon spark (not considering atk levels since it's the same for NV or R8 dagger) according to the stats here are http://pwcalc.com/cede3ce200f9603d is:
(15620+18606)/2 * 1.38 * 5.0 = 118079

Now keeping every other piece of gear the same and changing the NV dagger to R8. we find the minimum refinement on the R8 dagger that would would beat the above dps while still being 4.0 demon sparked is this at +11 here http://pwcalc.com/5550b3b3160f7bf3 with a dps of:
(17505+24689)/2 * 1.41 * 4.0 = 118987

Of course this is assuming he will still be perma sparking at 4.0, which is NEARLY true so we'll just give you benefit of the doubt.

Now why you would +11 or +12 an R8 dagger (which I'm sure you will agree logically concludes from your statement that you out dps most 5.0 sins) is beyond me, but the fact that you would spend at least 300m worth of refines on a dagger that is not even nearly the best shows that you are an idiot.

Thanks for the reply, how about fill in all the stats next time you do a calc, first link is not complete. Math is nice, but does not completly reflect what happens in the game. It is just a general starting point. None the less the math on the calc is off anyway. Even before I started adding DoT's to my gear I always pulled agro from g13 niv's +10 and below. +11 or +12 was a back and forth battle for agro. I was paying attention to this during the 100 or so niv runs i did during 2x that was just r8/g13 sins, I tanked 90% of them. It was that last determining factor for me to ditch the idea of getting niv daggers. G15's were similar, but was hard to determin as 3 sins 2 bm's and a aps barb, we were 1 sparking all the bosses, so really not enough time to notice. R9, well ofc not. Yes i +11 my r8 daggers, was lucky enough to get 1 orb while PWI had their 11/12 sale. I would have gotten a 12 to, but just did not have enough coin to buy one at the time

The only time i notice that i could not perma spark is in niv and some other bosses in other instances. probaly slow or such.

On my gear below i had to add stats to the rings to reflect ring add-ons they allow now. With that build I usualy (sparked) do 11-22k dmg on 150 bosses and 45K-110k on reg bosses. Under HF my max crit now is 180k on reg bosses and around 50-60k on 150 bosses. That is just off the top of my head. Generally that amounts to 2 sparking etheral in Brim solo, and 2 sparking the 1m< bosses in fc,. I used etheral as he is not really that hard, just has alot of hp and is a comparison i use for myself anytime i ajust stats and/or gear. That is one instance I love because of farming books there. 5-6 mins to kill 3 bosses and the drops I npc usualy pay better than selling heads, plus plenty of molds and misc books for the faction bank.

The int bonus on niv daggers are not worth it for me to get mediocre dmg increase, and r9 is just something i may eventualy get.
I will post when i get home from work my actual stats(pic), they maybe similar
stats>> http://pwcalc.com/6b0916fddf66ccaf

sachelfunlol

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wow, so i know what a sin can do, but i don't understand the metagame and what is their contribution to the greater good in all this.
4 aps r8 do more damage than most sins around? how many g13 have you seen below +10 refines? how many r8 over 10?
so yeah, move along, you have no idea what you're talking about. None, nada, zip.
stop writting totally re.tard posts and follow your advice: move along, minesweeper and solitaire challenges are waiting ahead of you

i have seen plenty of g13 +10 or more on the non agro side of me plenty of times

and i am still looling about it

b:laugh

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver

I wonder what the real calculation is when the sin actually knows how to play. Once you take into effect the effects of sub sea and powerdash synergized with genie skills. You know the added benefit of atually being a faster chi dagger.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I wonder what the real calculation is when the sin actually knows how to play. Once you take into effect the effects of sub sea and powerdash synergized with genie skills. You know the added benefit of atually being a faster chi dagger.

when I got to 100 I looked at both options: R8 and G13. I was actually planning to go the R8 route...But then I was thinking well, 160 mil won't make me or break me, so before refine one of them to +10 or above I made a g13. Sure, the R8 might come close to G13 in terms of raw DPS, but there are so many things that the -int on weapon brings into play: Better ornaments (At least 1000 HP gain from cube+warsong ornaments) , accuracy ( i can bet sachelfunlol is still missing a lot with those two rings, so he's not even close to being permaspark) some extra mdef and then the biggest advantage of them all: chi. As ppl were discussing on other topics, the luxury of having chi for anything: Tripple spark -> Subsea, powerdash and still be able to stay permasparked + genie amps, since I don't need to use chi skills on genie to cover the time lost casting the amp skills.
On 4 aps any deviation from those 4 attacks/sec will set you back on chi gain. Sure, there are ways to get the chi back, but those have cooldowns/high genie energy consumption. I don't have that problem at 5 aps and I can use all my additional skills just for amps.
Another issue where more aps is better than a hypothetical 3% dmg is sleep/debuff bosses. Being stuck at 2.86 with about 100-120 chi with all chi skills in cooldown and no energy on genie and being debuffed to 0 pdef/mdef isn't a nice place to be.
There's more than math to 5 aps G13 vs 4 aps R8 sins. And even if we stick to math, the difference is almost nothing and there is no question about > +10 refines. And really, guys, whoever has money to +10 and 2 garnet gem a G13 will have the 80 mil required for 2nd socket. So let's not compare apples with oranges, in the hope someone who put 300+ mil into a dagger can't fork out another 80. That's a few days of farming outside x2 when you already have a +10 G13 with 1 Gem.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I wonder what the real calculation is when the sin actually knows how to play. Once you take into effect the effects of sub sea and powerdash synergized with genie skills. You know the added benefit of atually being a faster chi dagger.

The straight forward math is assuming people know how to play their class. The math loses its accuracy when people don't know how to play and spend time outside of triple spark, or using unneeded skills. These are also just straight dps calcs with no Wolf Emblem, PD, Subsea considered or stuns, sleeps, random aggro. It also assume both parties start at 3+ sparks and stay at 3+ sparks and their only goal is to poke poke 15 seconds at a time. Basically, math=perfect potential outside of human error.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

when I got to 100 I looked at both options: R8 and G13. I was actually planning to go the R8 route...But then I was thinking well, 160 mil won't make me or break me, so before refine one of them to +10 or above I made a g13. Sure, the R8 might come close to G13 in terms of raw DPS, but there are so many things that the -int on weapon brings into play: Better ornaments (At least 1000 HP gain from cube+warsong ornaments) , accuracy ( i can bet sachelfunlol is still missing a lot with those two rings, so he's not even close to being permaspark) some extra mdef and then the biggest advantage of them all: chi. As ppl were discussing on other topics, the luxury of having chi for anything: Tripple spark -> Subsea, powerdash and still be able to stay permasparked + genie amps, since I don't need to use chi skills on genie to cover the time lost casting the amp skills.
On 4 aps any deviation from those 4 attacks/sec will set you back on chi gain. Sure, there are ways to get the chi back, but those have cooldowns/high genie energy consumption. I don't have that problem at 5 aps and I can use all my additional skills just for amps.
Another issue where more aps is better than a hypothetical 3% dmg is sleep/debuff bosses. Being stuck at 2.86 with about 100-120 chi with all chi skills in cooldown and no energy on genie and being debuffed to 0 pdef/mdef isn't a nice place to be.
There's more than math to 5 aps G13 vs 4 aps R8 sins. And even if we stick to math, the difference is almost nothing and there is no question about > +10 refines. And really, guys, whoever has money to +10 and 2 garnet gem a G13 will have the 80 mil required for 2nd socket. So let's not compare apples with oranges, in the hope someone who put 300+ mil into a dagger can't fork out another 80. That's a few days of farming outside x2 when you already have a +10 G13 with 1 Gem.

Not alot of sins are missing attacks when they have 480 dex. Even if they were, you still gain chi when an attack misses. Don't believe me, then let a barb chi up on you. If his misses didn't also give him chi it'd take a year for him to get 4 sparks.

Your point thats G13 users can switch ornies and still be 5.0 assumes they have a -int tome so you have to add that in too if doing a cost comparison. Me personally, it was either a -int tome or G13 daggers for almost the same price so I went with the tome because G13's aren't endgame for me, Rank 9 is. I'd still need a -int tome for rank 9 and G13's would basically be npc'd if I'd gone that route so the opportunity cost of not going G13 was a savings of about 600 mil (counting shards/refines).

I do agree that 4 aps perma sparking cuts you short on skill usage. With Inner Harmony you lose virtually no time but it can only be used once every 60 seconds. Any other chi skills and you lose dps because they take time. Most bosses don't last 60 seconds, and in fact don't last more than 1 spark, so 90% of the time its a null point, but sometimes it is punishing.

I'm not sure about the Subsea+PD combo. First off, you can't triple spark and use those together unless you are using a genie for chi, which you said you are not. So I assume you are unsparked? Why would you crit buff and subsea when unsparked? Let's say you have unlimited sparks and you Wolf Emblem, triple spark, IH, Subsea, PD. You have used up 1/5 of your triple spark castingt he 2 skills, and 1/4 of your subsea casting the second skill. Seems a much more effective combo would be Wolf Emblem, trip spark, IH, PD and use extreme poison from your genie (maybe combo with tangling mire, too) and rank 8 daggers can still do this combo and remain permasparked.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

you're going way to far and getting way to excited about it.
Tripple spark + subsea + powerdash - prolly waste of spark time. You don't need to write a whole paragraph with chi math and how much DD is lost.
Cost wise, I had the tome, I had the ornamets, I had the refine orbs, pretty much everything. And no, I didn't buy them, I HAD them. I have the tome since 2009, same for Cube neck and Wsng belt, same for lunar might rings, same for TT99 gear pieces.
200 mil for a G13 was a small investment and I wanted to see which one is best. I compared them at +5 only, I didn't care much for dmg but for what I can do with my skills and how can I amp the dmg and how long I can hold that amp. G13 won hands down.
And another point: when bosses are dropping in less than a spark, the comparison between R8 and G13 is pointless. I'm not talking about solo FC farm or 3-4 man nirv squad where 2-3 sins spark and 1 BM HFs. It really makes no difference there if you're 4 or 5 aps for those 5 secs before boss drops. But, if you want to solo anything else ( like 3- x) or even go further than big room in FC, you will love the luxury of 5 aps and fast chi build.

sachelfunlol

I spent about a month while leveling on deciding sage/demon and niv/or r8, then eventualy r9. Posting a pic below on my actual stats, they are not to far off from the pwcalc. I do not have any problems permsparking except on a few 150 bosses i have encountered mainly in niv, and usualy it still is not an issue, they die long before it becomes one. bubbles in fcc is a 2 spark boss, and i can usualy get ad in before sleep happens. i generaly fill up 3 sparks and upto 1/2 upto full chi through a spark. i dont really go in fcc much except for exp, but i much rather just do the daily pw or what its called by the elder and i can farm more coin from brim than selling heads even outside of 2x. i work on getting sp more than exp anyway. i do not have demon DD yet so i can squeeze a bit more dmg after i get that. only demon skill i have atm is chill. I dont use charms or chi herbs or even genie chi skills and the like except for mire ad(sometimes) and hp skills incase i am in a tight spot. i dont bother with the macro's either. Depending on what i am doing i may get some type of def herbs or similar but that is rare. reason being is i want to know what my capabilities are and i will not find that out with extra help (but i am not saying they are bad). I want to know what i can do with just bp and so far its quite a bit even with my somewhat low hp. I test myself in different instances to challenge myself where ever that maybe, brim for dmg testing, SoT and aba for survival testing. been in enough niv squads were i know i can tank all the bosses with no cleric but kfc is a pain mainly because i need a bit more hp.

but anyway have fun!

the ss below has higher def than i actualy have, when i did this pic i had the bell buff, but nothing else

http://i51.tinypic.com/2zoke92.png

note: my post came after yours, the only problem boss after head room is the first one, get past that the rest is a breeze even comical hehe

Empu - Sanctuary

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But, if you want to solo anything else ( like 3- x)

Been there, done that with 2.86 aps

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

or even go further than big room in FC, you will love the luxury of 5 aps and fast chi build.

Been there, done that with 2.22 aps


Aps is kinda overrated on bosses that force you to use chi skills anyway b:shutup

To actually relate that to topic, this is why I think something like a cd on spark would be the easiest solution that doesn't nerf sins less then the other melee classes. Any nerf strictly aps related, would also require to review the chi skills to be really fair (though I think a simple aps nerf would be better then it is now).

Btw, why did this turn into a G13 vs R8 topic?

IAetius - Dreamweaver

In China they just recently nerfed aps. They made it so once you spark you don't gain chi. I can see that being semi bad for sins but not all that terrible. Sins have chi skills so the worst that's gonna happen to them is maybe their skills are on cd or they'd have to rely on their genie for chi instead of TM or EP.

If PWE does follow China in this area I think again sins are going to come out on top. It will only put claw/ fist BM, Barb, archers, and venos (yes venos ) further down the list. The problem that needs to be taken care of is sins, no point in nerfing the other classes in that way as well.

However I do have a sin and I love her OPness very much. I find it fun to be on her but if I never made one I really would have never known how good a sin really is. Sins are like the most basic form of this game, even if you are a complete noob and lvled your sin from 1 to 100 in a month and cashed all it's gear you are still going to be godly because they are so simple to play.

Don't get me wrong there are some very talented sins out there who can expand a lot further then the basic stealth and spark combo and are actually good enough to pk with no stealth at all except for chi. I find those sins to be amazing because the simple fact that they do not use stealth but stand and fight is just outstanding.

Though even if your sin is your main you gotta admit, they're just a little too over powered. It would be nice if pwi would do something about them but honestly nothing is going to be done. If you are so mad about how strong sins are then just go make one because pwi most likely isn't going to do anything. It sucks =/

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

IAetius - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In China they just recently nerfed aps. They made it so once you spark you don't gain chi. I can see that being semi bad for sins but not all that terrible. Sins have chi skills so the worst that's gonna happen to them is maybe their skills are on cd or they'd have to rely on their genie for chi instead of TM or EP.

That change existed just on the test server for 5 days before it was removed.
Go check the 9/2 patch and 9/7 patches for more info.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

+1, change was removed, no success.
A lot of PWI/PWE income is actually based on Sins. They do damage to the gameplay, but they still create income, either from the fact that ppl raise sin alts or they are trying to gear up a much as possible to stand a chance against sins. Win/Win situation, and no, PWI/PWE will not do anything about it.