most important 4 things

Olivia_Munn - Sanctuary

It is agreed that Veno's are a support class when in a party. I've read several people's ideas on what they should be focusing on. So I was wondering what would you say are the 4 or 5 things any Veno wishing to be a GOOD Veno should do...

I'll start with a couple of things that I do:

1.) Keep everyone brambled.

2.) Send chi when asked by a cleric/barb or tank

3.) Use Ironwood and Lucky Scarab

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

Use Amplify Damage.

Bramble all melee classes (though I've met some sins that didn't want it) and only bramble ranged classes if they ask for it (some have a phobia for the little bit of aggro being hit while brambled would give them.)

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver

1 - Amp bosses and if the team is weak on the DD side, some of the tougher mobs.

2 - Ironwood most instance mobs. I think Ironwood is highly underrated and unknown to most non-Venos. Amp gets all the airplay, but it is highly possible that Ironwood may contribute more to shortening an instance especially if its un-wined.

3 - Protect the Cleric. In so many random teams these days, the poor cleric saves everyone's life, but no one looks out for them. It seems like everyone just wants to DD, regardless of endangering the Cleric. It is also saving your time in the long run. Nothing stops an instance faster than a dead cleric without a rez scroll.

4 - Pull - Pull Bosses, and pull single mobs out of packs of mobs. If overly aggressive DD'ers refuse to stop long enough for you to pull single mobs out of a pack of mobs, resist the urge to run in and join them, but hold back and be ready to protect the cleric when the burrito hits the fan. If you invested in a Herc, invest in a good alternative just for pulling. There is nothing worse than forgetting to stow and recall your Herc before a pull which results in the boss and all the minions to come calling. (If you pull with the Herc's Reflect buff working, it will bring most of the mobs back.)

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

1) Ironwood Scarab , its an absolute necessity to be maxed and used. it increases ur pet dmg and the Physical dmg of the rest DD in ur squad. Since most of them should be assassins and BM , lower def means more attack , more heals from bloodpaint , less stress for the healer and faster killing (crucial for not so easy bosses such as Pole / Nob or FF and TT (GBA Boss)

2) Bramble . Must on the tan kand the physical dmg DDs. Squishies shouldnt generally be buffed unless they ask u to. If they want it , give them the buff , most probably they can utilize it well. Bramble is a great thing in FF monster pulls cause the barb can have evey mob on him due to the dmg he does with reflect and BB wont attract heal aggro so the cleric can use it immediately = successful pull.

3) Venomous , Blazing , Lucky = DD , venos are DD , they dont score high dmg such as wizzies and psys , but their skills are fast in general , and the MP cost is far lower compared to other classes. That means u can build dmg constantly.

4) Chi , this is related to 3) cause Venomous is nice to gain chi (especially sage) , lucky gives 15 chi , and blazing gives a nice 20 chi ( well only reason worth using unless u have Genie skills or apothecary items). Chi is needed for Lending Hand (passinng sparks to barbs , Clerics and DDs ) , Ironwood (obvisously , the skill is chi burner), and the mighty Parasitic Nova which is nice to use in any AoE situations (Demon is especially nice as its is a second amplify for us and our squad).

5) Amplify : nothing much to say , Always have it maxed and always use it . As my main is a DD (archer) i can absolutely say i love this thing , and thats why i adore venos when i see them using it. Both Demon and Sage add a nice perk too it.Getting it is a sure boost to any veno's popularity in a squad.

6)Soul Degenaration , use quickly first if u have the Sage version.

7) Tanking : While most of the times APS people tank (even hercs are helpless tanks in that situation , it is sad) Ur a great back up tank. As a veno i always protect the squishies on my squad , and i try to grab a boss (and tank it for as much as i can) till the squad is again prepared to rejoin the battle.

6) Luring , sth all that can do , however range pets (and Storm Mistress) are a nice addition for those tight luring situations.

7)Aggro Control , we may have weaker skills , but that doesnt mean that we do weak dmg. Completely opposite , we do great dmg , but that can be fatal if we arent careful. Dont do stupid things there.

Thats all i can think of right now

tfi3f

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver wrote: »

3 - Protect the Cleric. In so many random teams these days, the poor cleric saves everyone's life, but no one looks out for them. It seems like everyone just wants to DD, regardless of endangering the Cleric. It is also saving your time in the long run. Nothing stops an instance faster than a dead cleric without a rez scroll.

The cleric tip is legit and pr0;

Also, when you pass lvl 79 don't forget to get your 79 skills and begin breaking bosses, etc.

Viper_girl - Heavens Tear

Protect the Cleric AND/or the Mystic. Secondarily squishies like the Wiz or Psy.

Although the Mystic has more skills available to help protect against strays, often times they don't have their Tank Pet out to protect them when being the main healer. Sally isn't much of a tank.

I'm leveling up both a Mystic and Cleric so I'm getting to see what lvl 50 to 70s Venos tend to do. (or not to do) and how it affects the Cleric & Mystic.

Transferring a spark is really nice. Clerics need 2 sparks for BB so if it gets interrupted/stopped in the middle of a battle, don't wait for it to be asked for just send it. If I'm in a middle of a fight I'm way too busy on my Cleric to ask for sparks. Seekers need 2 sparks for Vortex (and gaining Chi on a Seeker is slow). Mystics don't seem to need it as much. It wasn't until I started playing a Seeker that I realized how dang fast a Veno generates Chi compared to other classes.

Other than that Ironheart, Lucky Scarab on non-bosses (bosses are immune to the stun), Amp, Purge if it is one of the few bosses that buff themselves.

I notice that so many non-venos have become good at luring with the Zeal, it isn't as important except for difficult pulls. Even so sometimes the Mystic Pet which doesn't seem to get stuck on platforms sometimes works better and is faster than re-summoning and rebuffing a Herc. Nevertheless, it is a skill that should be practiced.

Aranarwa - Heavens Tear

Olivia_Munn - Sanctuary wrote: »

1.) Keep everyone brambled.

just one comment here:

keep everyone brambled you say?

No, just no.....

Never ever bramble a cleric (unless he specifically asks for it)

Crescendia - Harshlands

alright I'll write some things that veno's seem to not do.

1. Pass chi to cleric after they put up blue bubble.
2. bramble the tank(s) only
3. keep bosses pdef debuffed always.
4. Amp in coordination with tank's sparks.

i could write more but meh it's not hard to figure out what a squad needs from a veno >_>

The most important thing u should do is learn how others play to be a help. Some clerics don't need chi to be passed to them. Some aps DD's shouldn't be brambled because holding aggro for them can be fatal.... etc.

DeadRaven - Sanctuary

Aranarwa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

just one comment here:
keep everyone brambled you say?
No, just no.....
Never ever bramble a cleric (unless he specifically asks for it)

I will agree that as a rule of thumb, dont give the cleric or arcane DD bramble unless they ask for it (which is what I do) but seriously, I dont understand why some just freak out when they get brambled b:puzzled

When I am on my cleric, I am fine with getting bramble. The only exception is if the tank is significanlty lower level or weaker than me (as cleric) or the other members of the squad. Firstly, the bramble will help the squad kill bosses with an AOE faster, and secondly, if I get aggro on a mob, odds are that I am either going to holy path to tank in which case bramble will not make a significant difference for the tank to regain aggro, or else, I am simply going to kill the mob myself in which case bramble will help get the job done faster. And thirdly, when the instance is done, I am most likely going back out to grind or quest in which case, thank you for the bramble

I understand the rational around aggro control for being selective with who one brambles, but some people (a few clerics come to mind) just WAY over react to getting brambled. To those clerics....dude! it's not that big of a deal! Think it through first before freaking out. And if you do get brambled but dont want bramble, a simple "thanks, but no thanks" works well enough b:kiss

Aranarwa - Heavens Tear

DeadRaven - Sanctuary wrote: »

I will agree that as a rule of thumb, dont give the cleric or arcane DD bramble unless they ask for it (which is what I do) but seriously, I dont understand why some just freak out when they get brambled b:puzzled

When I am on my cleric, I am fine with getting bramble. The only exception is if the tank is significanlty lower level or weaker than me (as cleric) or the other members of the squad. Firstly, the bramble will help the squad kill bosses with an AOE faster, and secondly, if I get aggro on a mob, odds are that I am either going to holy path to tank in which case bramble will not make a significant difference for the tank to regain aggro, or else, I am simply going to kill the mob myself in which case bramble will help get the job done faster. And thirdly, when the instance is done, I am most likely going back out to grind or quest in which case, thank you for the bramble

I understand the rational around aggro control for being selective with who one brambles, but some people (a few clerics come to mind) just WAY over react to getting brambled. To those clerics....dude! it's not that big of a deal! Think it through first before freaking out. And if you do get brambled but dont want bramble, a simple "thanks, but no thanks" works well enough b:kiss

If the cleric aggros just one mob in an instance..your comment is fair enough.
But...if the tank pulls a larger number of mobs and the cleric for whatever reason (be it lag, be it a fail tank..whatever..) takes heal aggro, it is near impossible for anyone to take the aggro away from him fast enough...all because of the bramble.
Seriously... do NOT bramble the cleric (unless he asks for it).

But meh..this is going a wee bit off topic now.


On topic (only just now I realized I forgot that on my first post b:surrender):

1) bramble the close range physical damage dealers (and any others if they want you to)
2) pass chi
3) debuff the boss
4) lure

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver

Viper_girl - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Transferring a spark is really nice. Clerics need 2 sparks for BB so if it gets interrupted/stopped in the middle of a battle, don't wait for it to be asked for just send it. If I'm in a middle of a fight I'm way too busy on my Cleric to ask for sparks. Seekers need 2 sparks for Vortex (and gaining Chi on a Seeker is slow). Mystics don't seem to need it as much. It wasn't until I started playing a Seeker that I realized how dang fast a Veno generates Chi compared to other classes.

I wish someone would do a mini-guide on how and when to pass chi. I have yet to get my cleric or barb alts leveled past 35, so I don't have first hand experience with it from the recipient side.

The topic confuses me greatly because I have had several clerics get bent out of shape after I have passed them chi during BB with out asking. Same thing with Barbs. I really have no idea when it is appropriate to pass a spark to them. People rarely ask for it.

At this point for me, I pass chi to the cleric when they BB and I see their mana hit 50% or less. I pass to tanking barbs on bosses the same way. I am not sure if it is effective as only a few ever say thanks.

Itori - Lost City

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I wish someone would do a mini-guide on how and when to pass chi. I have yet to get my cleric or barb alts leveled past 35, so I don't have first hand experience with it from the recipient side.

The topic confuses me greatly because I have had several clerics get bent out of shape after I have passed them chi during BB with out asking. Same thing with Barbs. I really have no idea when it is appropriate to pass a spark to them. People rarely ask for it.

On my barb, I only had problems with chi in frost 80-88. After 89 I went sage, got sage bestial and never got short of chi again. I also used to run frost with my demon barb husband. He never asked me for chi, if he really needed it he would ask.
Same deal with clerics, if I saw BB drop, I automatically saw Master Li's technique, or Cloud Eruption animations. People were not very used to running with venos.

My 4 would be...
1) Debuff... this includes but is not limited to amp, myraids, ironwood, soul degen, purge, etc. It's kinda sad when I'm on some other char and I have to /ask/ the veno to do any of these things. A particular type seems to amp once at the beginning of the boss then never seen in fox form again. Spamming venomous is sooo pro -__-'
2) Lending Hand... I'd like to include in this, knowledge of other classes spark using skills and ability to gain chi. People say barbs or clerics are the ones they always pass sparks to, at the top of their chi giving list. For me? Wizards. See a wizard spamming distance shrink? I spark them. See a wizard just use an ulti on the pull before the boss? spark them. Course, wizzies are a bit rare, heh. Clerics are probably second in places where the boss will be interrupting BB regularly. After seekers were out for a while, I passed them a spark after every Vortex and they thanked me. Passing sparks to BMs can also let them dragon more, especially when they are low aps. Keep in mind that dragons has the same cooldown as amp, which lets you keep track of when to pass. One last thing.. let people know you can pass sparks =.= in this day and age, people can be ignorant of other classes skills or maybe dont think they can ask. Other times, pass at your own discretion.
3)Bramble... I used to be shy about who I brambled. At 9x, it was anyone with more than 5k hp unbuffed, cause thats around what I had and I did fine when I stole aggro. clerics... hardly see them aggro anyways, like the hoolahoop makes a difference. Might as well bramble everyone when the boss has a physical aoe too. Demon bramble has to be one of my favorite skills b:dirty or it was, back when I did frost. People still stop me in TW to bramble them though.
4) Pets. Dunno if this was mentioned, using your pet to it's best possible potential. Wether it is having your pet tank, luring with your pet, or using your pet to debuff the boss' def, mdef, attack, m.atck, interrupt, etc. All too often at 9x-10x do I hardly even see venos with their pets out I dont know if this is a cry for "I dont need my pet anymore!" or they just get mad cause it dies too quick, but it bothers me when a veno doesnt keep a pet out 95% of the time. I can understand some bosses have nasty aoes where keeping a pet out is just a hassle. Yet.. beside those times.. why doesnt that veno have a pet out? they do full damage on [?] mobs/bosses, they can do many useful things.. Most of the time I lead in BHs with my herc tanking the mob while I amp and myraid while I wait for everyone to catch up (hehe)

Viper_girl - Heavens Tear

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The topic confuses me greatly because I have had several clerics get bent out of shape after I have passed them chi during BB with out asking. Same thing with Barbs. I really have no idea when it is appropriate to pass a spark to them. People rarely ask for it.

At this point for me, I pass chi to the cleric when they BB and I see their mana hit 50% or less. I pass to tanking barbs on bosses the same way. I am not sure if it is effective as only a few ever say thanks.

I don't know why they would get bent out of shape but perhaps it is because you are passing DURING the BB and not after. The 2 Sparks are needed to start the BB, BB doesn't stop because Chi runs out. Also if the Cleric has 3 sparks and a full Chi bar before starting the BB he/she can start up BB again fairly quickly without outside help. You have to read the situation, if the BB gets interrupted during a fight and he/she should be starting it up again but isn't, it could be because of lack of Chi. If the BB ends after the Boss is dead it is rarely necessary to pass Chi to the Cleric.

Perhaps the Cleric was thinking you could be better using that spark to help the Tank or DDs during the battle. (so that the Boss would die faster and they could end their BB). I'm assuming that you are keeping Amp on the boss during that time and spamming Ironwood, which uses your own Chi (if you aren't they could be pissed that you are spending time lending sparks instead of speeding up the boss kill). In either case I find it strange that a Cleric or Barb would be snarky about being passed a Spark.

As far as thankyous go, I wouldn't worry about it. Often times in Dungeon runs the only thanks that gets passed around is at the end. It is nice to have some things noticed, but it would be like everyone thanking the Cleric for BBing or the Seeker for Vortexing (both which eat Mana charms/food like crazy). Everyone is expected to do their part. It doesn't mean you aren't doing a good job if you aren't being thanked during the run.

thumbs

Olivia_Munn - Sanctuary wrote: »

It is agreed that Veno's are a support class when in a party.

This is something that people who refuse to build a proper dd like to perpetuate. All classes have support roles and all have the job of dd'ing.

Marengo - Lost City

Olivia_Munn - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll start with a couple of things that I do:

1.) Keep everyone brambled.

2.) Send chi when asked by a cleric/barb or tank

3.) Use Ironwood and Lucky Scarab

1) not everyone but those who need it (or at least ask it)
2) should define when they need chi instead of making them ask
3) you are to use those skills which are needed.
3.1 what about other skills? you don't use them? xd
3.2 don't use lucky scarab on a target stunned by bm.
3.3 ironwood is useless to use when 79 debuff worked. better save chi and pass to dd, it will make more sense.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

1. Know and use your debuffs.

2. Read and understand this: http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Venomancer_Dungeons

Olivia_Munn - Sanctuary

Aranarwa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

just one comment here:

keep everyone brambled you say?

No, just no.....

Never ever bramble a cleric (unless he specifically asks for it)

Okay I am not an idiot here. I know not to bramble clerics. That is just my shorthand for keeping brambled those that want it without having to type an entire paragraph for each point.

The idea was to talk about what YOU would list as your 4 things not nit pick at mine. Please stay on topic.

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver

My main is still my 85 veno which due to my refusal to pay to skip content may never reach endgame in my lifetime, and to but I have been leveling up a cleric.

Recently I teamed my lvl 47 cleric with a lvl 60 Veno to take down the Traitor in the Goshiki quest line. After I buffed the Veno, they came back and buffed my cleric with Summer Sprint.

Summer Sprint is a nifty veno runspeed buff that lasts for 5 minutes.

Even though I did not need it in that situation, it did make a big light bulb go off in my head.

I thought of all those times in FB/BH runs the cleric is usually way behind the team while running to the next boss. My Veno relys on a combination of Holy Path and Summer Sprint to stay up with the tank, I believe Clerics do not have any speed buffs of their own.

I am going to start buffing clerics in FB/BH runs with Summer Sprint so they will not lag so far behind the group.

As I understand it, most other professions have either faster run speed naturally or have decent speed buffs so am not aware of a need to do this except for Clerics.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My main is still my 85 veno which due to my refusal to pay to skip content may never reach endgame in my lifetime, and to but I have been leveling up a cleric.

Recently I teamed my lvl 47 cleric with a lvl 60 Veno to take down the Traitor in the Goshiki quest line. After I buffed the Veno, they came back and buffed my cleric with Summer Sprint.

Summer Sprint is a nifty veno runspeed buff that lasts for 5 minutes.

Even though I did not need it in that situation, it did make a big light bulb go off in my head.

I thought of all those times in FB/BH runs the cleric is usually way behind the team while running to the next boss. My Veno relys on a combination of Holy Path and Summer Sprint to stay up with the tank, I believe Clerics do not have any speed buffs of their own.

I am going to start buffing clerics in FB/BH runs with Summer Sprint so they will not lag so far behind the group.

As I understand it, most other professions have either faster run speed naturally or have decent speed buffs so am not aware of a need to do this except for Clerics.

Summer Sprint is a Self Blessing u cant use it on others ............. b:surrender

X$exyFox - Heavens Tear

Olivia_Munn - Sanctuary wrote: »

1.) Keep everyone brambled.

I disagree with this.
I think you should never bramble the Cleric.

BabaORiley - Dreamweaver

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Summer Sprint is a Self Blessing u cant use it on others ............. b:surrender

I could have sworn I saw the icon show up under my portrait. I remember being surprised as I was expecting to see the bramble icon, but perhaps it was too near my sack time.b:laugh

Aranarwa - Heavens Tear

Olivia_Munn - Sanctuary wrote: »

Okay I am not an idiot here. I know not to bramble clerics. That is just my shorthand for keeping brambled those that want it without having to type an entire paragraph for each point.

The idea was to talk about what YOU would list as your 4 things not nit pick at mine. Please stay on topic.

Touchy are we?

you must have missed my second post at the bottom of the same page....b:bye

Vindis - Dreamweaver

hmm interesting topic. I personally love venos in my squads though many others tend to shun them. I'll give my archer point of view on them and what I've learned from squadding veno friends.

I agree with most of the pro tips in here. I do not recommend brambling an archer or AA DD, especially if the archer is not fist build (rare I know but still likely, pre 99 fist users fail anyways due to lack of aps gear). Around 90+ was when I started asking for Bramble since I would always have aggro in FC. Before then, as a pure bow, bramble would just get me aggro faster and mobs generally die before they reach melee range unless its a pull and I'm in BoA. When I had lower defenses (pre-90) bramble was an aggro issue in bh79 and FC since aggro=death in those instances for low level LAs, especially in non-barb squads (sorry BMs, you really can't tank until 99+ b:surrender).

On the subject of Lending Hand: Archers before 89 in FC are good candidates for Lending Hand as well since BoA costs 2 sparks. I know Wizard's DB only costs one and before 89 many wizards have neglected their 2 spark ulti skills (lol wizzies are few and far between now). Seekers could also be good candidates since vortex also uses 2 sparks. Possibly BMs during a boss fight as well for HF, but you could just as well use your own sparks for Amp. Amp is amazing. Use it on bosses when HF goes off. You generally want to time it with the highest DDs spark to ensure best results. b:victory

Also, Barbs have a skill which gives them chi each time they are hit. It is pretty much needed and will keep most barbs chi happy. If you notice any high chi skill used by a barb (Sunder or Armageddon for example, learn skill animations for other classes if you do not recognize them, ask). A barb may also need chi if they desire to spark on a boss. I generally ask for a spark when playing my barb.


On the subject of pulling, I recommend asking the archer in squad (if there is one) to catch a pulled mob with stunning arrow after bh59 or so when stun should be highly leveled and used quite often. Also, archer's freeze skill (Aim Low) requires one spark. So if you see an archer constantly stunlocking mobs they are probably in need of chi (that was my playstyle, hence why I went sage). I'm sure a sin could also headhunt and catch a mob, but I rarely see intelligent sins that bother with stunlock. Perma-stunlock makes the clerics job alot easier, hence making protecting said cleric even easier. Especially in non-barb squads.

Oh and another thing, sometimes its better to just stow your pet. My favourite example is in Big room in FC while fighting the boss. Often a cleric or archer is stuck doing hands and if the pet is large (Glacial, Herc, etc) it may block the view and make clicking a hand more difficult if there are many melee DDs. The hand also pops up on the pet as well making another target to watch.

@thumbs: Yep full agreement. All classes have support roles and all have to DD. Proper stunlock from archers/sins enabled clerics to DD. Timing/stacking control skills from various classes is something I see lacking far too much in squads. Same thing with stacking debuffs like HF/Subsea/Amp/Mire. Too often do I see Venos and sins neglecting these essential skills. Bosses in SoT can easily be killed if all sparks and debuffs are timed correctly regardless of having any aps DDs in squad at all.

I'd like to add another job that all classes have. Protect the cleric and protect each other. When people play solo style in a squad it is just unnecessary and puts everyone at risk. Even something simple like an Archer/Wizard duo stun/freeze/seal locking mobs saves a cleric mp pots and allows them to DD as well as saving the tank hp pots and repair bill. Keep in mind even clerics have mean sleep/freeze skills.

/rant. A bit ranty I know, but sometimes that happens lol. Prowalloftextispro

tweakz

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'd like to add another job that all classes have. Protect the cleric and protect each other. When people play solo style in a squad it is just unnecessary and puts everyone at risk. Even something simple like an Archer/Wizard duo stun/freeze/seal locking mobs saves a cleric mp pots and allows them to DD as well as saving the tank hp pots and repair bill. Keep in mind even clerics have mean sleep/freeze skills.

Agree with protecting the cleric, but it can be frustrating. 4.0 base aps Assassin with sage blood paint, wolf emblem, etc and most clerics waste their MP on spam healing out of "habit" when their debuffs would make them safer and have a better healing effect. -Most clerics in general aren't protecting themselves.

X$exyFox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I disagree with this.
I think you should never bramble the Cleric.

There's really actual little reason not to bramble a cleric while there's plenty reason to do it. The biggest reason not to is because of general perception.

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Agree with protecting the cleric, but it can be frustrating. 4.0 base aps Assassin with sage blood paint, wolf emblem, etc and most clerics waste their MP on spam healing out of "habit" when their debuffs would make them safer and have a better healing effect. -Most clerics in general aren't protecting themselves.

QFT


There's really actual little reason not to bramble a cleric while there's plenty reason to do it. The biggest reason not to is because of general perception.

maybe because most clerics just dont have the necessary gear and skill to utilize bramble correctly. This results in clueless casters screaming when they see bramble on them b:surrender

Abocanhadora - Dreamweaver

Everything as pretty much been said already... I just wanted to add a small information.

If you happen to be a demon venomancer, consider yourself in getting the demon skill crush vigor. a 50% chance of getting a free spark when casted, adding to the fact that you go to fox form anyway too cast amplify and sometimes myriad also... It may help you greatly, even more cause usually a mage venomancer dont do a lot more while he is in fox form waiting for cooldown to dissapear soo that he can go back to human form and DD.