Do not get g13 nirvy daggers, its weak

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

This thread has turned into a giant pissing contest. However, I have to say the G13 sins are out-stupiding the rest with the 5apsOMGiRawesome replies. And how do some G13 sins have only 4.0. If you are going to pick a weapon that doesn't hit as hard just for the aps at least have the cheaper base gear to support it, ijs.

Btw, getting really sick of all the G13 sins out there that can't keep aggro off my bm or barb, and definitely not my Rank 8 sin. Theoretically they should at least be out DDing my claw characters but I think thats where player ability comes into play.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

I was in nirv today with a +10 G13 and a +9 G13 I tanked both runs. Of course, one was 3.33 aps and the other was 4 aps. Mind you I have 4 aps +5 R8... It's kind of silly but I dont think they know they have skills. Wolf emblem adds a lot of damage lol and keeping it on actuallly increases your dps. ****** crazy I know?!?!

I just got down right pissed off when I seen a G13 sin with no shards or refines and he had none of the TT99 finished. And was wearing a rank 6 chest... Like really? Get the basics, then work on the good shiit. G13 isn't everything kids.

FiveAps - Dreamweaver

tell that to the other 102 dreamweaver numbnut on the previous page.

and my oh my, you're 100 already... b:victory
Only gonna hit 97 today...100 in prolly 2 weeks from now.

But yeah, on topic, I'm gonna go the 4 aps +10 R8 path. I really wanna see a G13 get the aggro from those.

Honestly, getting any nirvy wep at this point, even for sins, doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah, ok I hear a lot about the bullcrap with G15 and R9.
A perfect stats G15 might be better than R9 in a very limited situation: When You don't have complete R9 gear. No one ever looks at the attk/def lvls the R9 brings when doing that math? To me that's ridiculous honestly. If someone goes for R9...I mean...go for the eeffin R9 full set, don't just to a half *** job. And to farm that **** I think 4 aps+10 r8 is just as good. Much, much cheaper, but just as good.

Traz - Dreamweaver

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

tell that to the other 102 dreamweaver numbnut on the previous page.

and my oh my, you're 100 already... b:victory
Only gonna hit 97 today...100 in prolly 2 weeks from now.

But yeah, on topic, I'm gonna go the 4 aps +10 R8 path. I really wanna see a G13 get the aggro from those.

Honestly, getting any nirvy wep at this point, even for sins, doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah, ok I hear a lot about the bullcrap with G15 and R9.
A perfect stats G15 might be better than R9 in a very limited situation: When You don't have complete R9 gear. No one ever looks at the attk/def lvls the R9 brings when doing that math? To me that's ridiculous honestly. If someone goes for R9...I mean...go for the eeffin R9 full set, don't just to a half *** job. And to farm that **** I think 4 aps+10 r8 is just as good. Much, much cheaper, but just as good.

I lol'd...

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

FiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

tell that to the other 102 dreamweaver numbnut on the previous page.

and my oh my, you're 100 already... b:victory
Only gonna hit 97 today...100 in prolly 2 weeks from now.

But yeah, on topic, I'm gonna go the 4 aps +10 R8 path. I really wanna see a G13 get the aggro from those.

Honestly, getting any nirvy wep at this point, even for sins, doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah, ok I hear a lot about the bullcrap with G15 and R9.
A perfect stats G15 might be better than R9 in a very limited situation: When You don't have complete R9 gear. No one ever looks at the attk/def lvls the R9 brings when doing that math? To me that's ridiculous honestly. If someone goes for R9...I mean...go for the eeffin R9 full set, don't just to a half *** job. And to farm that **** I think 4 aps+10 r8 is just as good. Much, much cheaper, but just as good.

Haha yea im 100 finally. Living in fc has its benefits. And doing all sin 3 man fc runs is a good exp getter and takes less time than a full squad run.

Oh and traz about the loling at +10 r8 out dding g13 idk if youre any good at math but the difference in dd power between the 2 is so minimal that slight differences such as r8 user having more dex, or demon dagger devotion or keeping wolf emblem on is more than enough to make up that difference. And don't get me started on 1 socket g13s lol. Im sorry traz but youre 1 socket g13s arent any better than 4 aps r8 trololol. Be ignorant all you want it doesnt change the math.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Haha yea im 100 finally. Living in fc has its benefits. And doing all sin 3 man fc runs is a good exp getter and takes less time than a full squad run.

Oh and traz about the loling at +10 r8 out dding g13 idk if youre any good at math but the difference in dd power between the 2 is so minimal that slight differences such as r8 user having more dex, or demon dagger devotion or keeping wolf emblem on is more than enough to make up that difference. And don't get me started on 1 socket g13s lol. Im sorry traz but youre 1 socket g13s arent any better than 4 aps r8 trololol. Be ignorant all you want it doesnt change the math.

I'm 502 dex 40 crit +12 2 drakeflames to quote someone, "I really wanna see a r8 get the aggro from those." Funny part is that's been posted in this thread like 2 pages ago and you still didn't see it. They were +10 for 2-3 months no one has ever pulled aggro from me unless G15/r9. kthnxbai b:bye

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Haha yea im 100 finally. Living in fc has its benefits. And doing all sin 3 man fc runs is a good exp getter and takes less time than a full squad run.

Oh and traz about the loling at +10 r8 out dding g13 idk if youre any good at math but the difference in dd power between the 2 is so minimal that slight differences such as r8 user having more dex, or demon dagger devotion or keeping wolf emblem on is more than enough to make up that difference. And don't get me started on 1 socket g13s lol. Im sorry traz but youre 1 socket g13s arent any better than 4 aps r8 trololol. Be ignorant all you want it doesnt change the math.

4.0 R8 +10 Sin: 114,939 dps
5.0 Nirvana +10 1 socket Sin: 116,068 dps

You were saying?

And before you ask, yes I took Wolf Emblem into account. And no, adding attack levels wouldn't change it as they'd have the same attack level and therefore it'd only be a scaling multiplier.

Oh and btw:
1. Dexterity and crit% are already taken into account when counting DPS.
2. Comparing 2 setups that each cost 300m+, one of them 500m+ and yet the latter not being able to spare 2m for a skillbook doesn't happen.
3. You can keep Wolf Emblem up by using it during the immunity period of the spark.

Obviously, G13 Nirvana might not be the best option out there in terms of cost efficiency or DPS, but in a high-end setup where costs are ignored, G13 is superior to Rank 8.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

4.0 R8 +10 Sin: 114,939 dps
5.0 Nirvana +10 1 socket Sin: 116,068 dps

You were saying?

And before you ask, yes I took Wolf Emblem into account. And no, adding attack levels wouldn't change it as they'd have the same attack level and therefore it'd only be a scaling multiplier.

Oh and btw:
1. Dexterity and crit% are already taken into account when counting DPS.
2. Comparing 2 setups that each cost 300m+, one of them 500m+ and yet the latter not being able to spare 2m for a skillbook doesn't happen.
3. You can keep Wolf Emblem up by using it during the immunity period of the spark.

Obviously, G13 Nirvana might not be the best option out there in terms of cost efficiency or DPS, but in a high-end setup where costs are ignored, G13 is superior to Rank 8.

Wasnt aware an extra 2k dps is considered "any better."

Less than 1% increase in dps sure is "better". You got me man. And I believe it is 3-4% more dps if G13 has 2 sockets, which is hardly ever (10% of the time). So yea, all you showed me was 2 set ups with virtually identical dps (.9% difference). And well.. if wolf emblem can be kept up, maybe the rest of the sin world should be informed cuz I see a lot of sins use wolf emblem at the start of a nirv boss... then never again for the rest of the boss fight. Which is usually 2-5 spark cycles depending on boss and squad quality. Oh and demon dagger devotion is 20mil, not 2 trololol. Nice joke though.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm 502 dex 40 crit +12 2 drakeflames to quote someone, "I really wanna see a r8 get the aggro from those." Funny part is that's been posted in this thread like 2 pages ago and you still didn't see it. They were +10 for 2-3 months no one has ever pulled aggro from me unless G15/r9. kthnxbai b:bye

if you're dumb enough to put drakes in G13's and +12 em, then thats your problem, someone with your budget should really be rocking a good pair of G15's honestly. And I'm pretty sure he meant of almost equivelant value. Obviously +12 G13s will out DD R8 rofl. Same as +12 R8 with 2 drakes would OBVIOUSLY out DD average G13's with far inferior refines and shards. Your arguments are all about your epeen. We compare equivelant gear, and you jump in LOOK AT MY AWESOME GEAR NOOBS YOURE ALL WRONG BECAUSE I HAVE BETTER GEAR THAN THAT! HAHA. Just shut up damn.

What I'm saying is, take similar builds, R8 is similar to G13. So similar the change in dps is smaller than 1%. See what Im saying? I dont give a **** what you have, youre irrelevant and no one cares about your gear, get over yourself. Youre like yulk seriously lol. You go way off topic and ignore anything anyone says, yet refuse to back up what you say. Except the whole "I have better gear than that so youre wonrg, idiot". Just leave please, no one needs you dumbing down the sin forums.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Wasnt aware an extra 2k dps is considered "any better."

Less than 1% increase in dps sure is "better". You got me man. And I believe it is 3-4% more dps if G13 has 2 sockets, which is hardly ever (10% of the time). So yea, all you showed me was 2 set ups with virtually identical dps (.9% difference). And well.. if wolf emblem can be kept up, maybe the rest of the sin world should be informed cuz I see a lot of sins use wolf emblem at the start of a nirv boss... then never again for the rest of the boss fight. Which is usually 2-5 spark cycles depending on boss and squad quality. Oh and demon dagger devotion is 20mil, not 2 trololol. Nice joke though.

Um... there is another difference.

4.0 aps gains 300 chi in 15 seconds, whereas 5.0 aps gains it in 12 seconds. Since sparking comes with a downtime, which I believe is 3 seconds, this means the following:

4.0 aps:
3 second downtime
15 seconds of hitting
Repeat

5.0 aps:
3 seconds of downtime
12 seconds of hitting
Repeat

So, even if the DPS is equal, 4.0 aps is spread across 18 seconds whereas 5.0 aps is spread across 15. That alone gives you 20% more DPS.

And then there's the whole argument that Asterelle brought up somewhere, more sparking = more heals and more immunity, therefore more survivability.

And it is better. Granted, not by much, but it's still there.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um... there is another difference.

4.0 aps gains 300 chi in 15 seconds, whereas 5.0 aps gains it in 12 seconds. Since sparking comes with a downtime, which I believe is 3 seconds, this means the following:

4.0 aps:
3 second downtime
15 seconds of hitting
Repeat

5.0 aps:
3 seconds of downtime
12 seconds of hitting
Repeat

So, even if the DPS is equal, 4.0 aps is spread across 18 seconds whereas 5.0 aps is spread across 15. That alone gives you 20% more DPS.

And then there's the whole argument that Asterelle brought up somewhere, more sparking = more heals and more immunity, therefore more survivability.

So my G13s (using the charts where = stuff is calculated to r9) are 20% closer then everything thinks? In theory that is.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um... there is another difference.

4.0 aps gains 300 chi in 15 seconds, whereas 5.0 aps gains it in 12 seconds. Since sparking comes with a downtime, which I believe is 3 seconds, this means the following:

4.0 aps:
3 second downtime
15 seconds of hitting
Repeat

5.0 aps:
3 seconds of downtime
12 seconds of hitting
Repeat

So, even if the DPS is equal, 4.0 aps is spread across 18 seconds whereas 5.0 aps is spread across 15. That alone gives you 20% more DPS.

Huh? At 4 aps you can perma spark, at 5 aps you can perma spark. There's no downtime except the action of sparking. They can both spark once they hit 3 sparks and can keep it up until they get another 3 sparks, which will be before their spark expires either way. All you said is 5 aps can spark sooner, but it doesnt matter if they can spark sooner, the spark effect lasts until 4/5 aps gets another 3 sparks. The whole "5 aps gets more chi" argument is arguing more flexibility with skills such as powerdash etc.

Both can perma spark, both can respark before their current spark expires, changing dps by 0%. Since they can both use spark cycles once their spark expires. All 5 aps would do by sparking at 12 seconds instead of 15 is overwrite their existing spark. Come on now...

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So my G13s (using the charts where = stuff is calculated to r9) are 20% closer then everything thinks? In theory that is.

Well yes, assuming that you spark as soon as you get 300 chi.

Huh? At 4 aps you can perma spark, at 5 aps you can perma spark. There's no downtime except the action of sparking. They can both spark once they hit 3 sparks and can keep it up until they get another 3 sparks, which will be before their spark expires either way. All you said is 5 aps can spark sooner, but it doesnt matter if they can spark sooner, the spark effect lasts until 4/5 aps gets another 3 sparks. The whole "5 aps gets more chi" argument is arguing more flexibility with skills such as powerdash etc.

Both can perma spark, both can respark before their current spark expires, changing dps by 0%. Since they can both use spark cycles once their spark expires. All 5 aps would do by sparking at 12 seconds instead of 15 is overwrite their existing spark. Come on now...

There are a few problems with what you're saying:
1. 4.0 aps can only permaspark assuming that you either use chi skills or never miss.
2. 5.0 aps can permaspark always, unless they happen to miss 15 times, which would be ridiculous.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So my G13s (using the charts where = stuff is calculated to r9) are 20% closer then everything thinks? In theory that is.

No. He's confused.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Overwriting a spark does not give you more dps. sparks dont stack.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

No. He's confused.

I've had +12 with Drakes in my G13s for 6 months kiddo b:bye

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I've had +12 with Drakes in my G13s for 6 months kiddo b:bye

Thats awesome, this isnt 6 months ago. Time to upgrade.

Almost forgot to use b:bye. Because the post isnt good enough unless you use b:bye

So again, to look like I won the argument Ill just say b:bye

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thats awesome, this isnt 6 months ago. Time to upgrade.

Almost forgot to use b:bye. Because the post isnt good enough unless you use b:bye

So again, to look like I won the argument Ill just say b:bye

When you can farm 1.6 billion in less time, then you have a say in telling someone else to upgrade. This being my first 2x I'm even able to play in 6 months.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

When you can farm 1.6 billion in less time, then you have a say in telling someone else to upgrade. This being my first 2x I'm even able to play in 6 months.

All im saying is im tired of you trying to negate everyones arguments by comparing YOUR G13s to someone elses R8.

This is a discussion of equivelant builds. And which is better if all gear is equal, because thats how you tell which weapon has "better" dps. And which is worth the cost. If youre too stupid to understand that then there's no hope for you.

Well actually, it isnt, I take that back. MY thread was, this thread is some idiot posting about how **** g13 is, as much as i dislike g13, I wont go that far, it has its benefits, same as R8 has its benefits. G13 has more chi gaining ability, allowing for more skill flexibility and survivability. R8 allows you to spend the money on a tome which you will need for true endgame daggers, while skipping G13 altogether. Its a take your pick scenario, I started my dps thread to show people that R8 is not inferior to G13 in terms of dps if shards and refines are equivelant. So to the idiots asking for 5 aps only, youre stupid. +5 R8 > +3 G13. You went way off topic and as much as I have tried to explain the point of my thread to you, youre too stubborn to admit you misunderstood the concept of the thread and you let your epeen get in the way and wouldnt listen to a word i said. You make yourself look like an idiot when you do that btw.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

All im saying is im tired of you trying to negate everyones arguments by comparing YOUR G13s to someone elses R8.

This is a discussion of equivelant builds. And which is better if all gear is equal, because thats how you tell which weapon has "better" dps. And which is worth the cost. If youre too stupid to understand that then there's no hope for you.

Well actually, it isnt, I take that back. MY thread was, this thread is some idiot posting about how **** g13 is, as much as i dislike g13, I wont go that far, it has its benefits, same as R8 has its benefits. G13 has more chi gaining ability, allowing for more skill flexibility and survivability. R8 allows you to spend the money on a tome which you will need for true endgame daggers, while skipping G13 altogether. Its a take your pick scenario, I started my dps thread to show people that R8 is not inferior to G13 in terms of dps if shards and refines are equivelant. So to the idiots asking for 5 aps only, youre stupid. +5 R8 > +3 G13. You went way off topic and as much as I have tried to explain the point of my thread to you, youre too stubborn to admit you misunderstood the concept of the thread and you let your epeen get in the way and wouldnt listen to a word i said. You make yourself look like an idiot when you do that btw.

I'm not the one that brought up my characters specific weapon.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not the one that brought up my characters specific weapon.

You're right on that one. FiveAps said lets see a G13 in general take agro from his R8. Which is silly, a +12 G13 with drakes would do it easily. But I think he meant to say lets see an equally refined/sharded G13 steal agro. Which would be a more accurate claim. Although the math shows G13 1 socket with same level shards as a +10 R8 would out DD R8 by a whopping 1,100 damage. (.7% increase in dps)

The difference in damage is so slight, it probably wouldn't be noticable. it would come down to build and skill choice to see who tanks, and honestly, they'd prob just play agro tag with eachother.

Is the math getting through to you? R8 users get criticized for +10ing their weapon because "its a dead end weapon." (As if g13 isnt) And for what? Omg you do .7% less damage at +10 wtf noooooooooobbbbbbb!!!!

Im done writing, if you dont understand by now nothing I say will make it any clearer. Have fun trolling the forums.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Ok, I was going to post a lengthy re-analysis of what I wrote, but I decided against it because I figured it wasn't worth it.

Anyway, without any actual details, my conclusions were the following:
1. If both 5.0 and 4.0 spark as soon as they gain 3 sparks, the 5.0 has higher survivability due to spending longer time in immunity state and healing more often.
2. If the 5.0 instead chooses to spark at the end of their spark, they can use Subsea to gain more DPS. The exact numbers of the DPS are a bit too complicated to bother with.

Also, my actual analysis was done on my own numbers comparing +10 1x Garnet Gem Barrier Thorn Nirvana to a +10 2x Garnet Gem R8 Dagger.

The original claim about 5.0 automatically getting more DPS was a slight mistake of mine, which was the result of forgetting about the repetitions of the immunity period at the start of a spark.

Also, a 5.0 can always choose to drop to 4.0 with added survivability.

Just to clarify my own stance: I'm a sage, I got 2.5 aps and I'm fully intending to stick with my Rank 8 dagger.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're right on that one. FiveAps said lets see a G13 in general take agro from his R8. Which is silly, a +12 G13 with drakes would do it easily. But I think he meant to say lets see an equally refined/sharded G13 steal agro. Which would be a more accurate claim. Although the math shows G13 1 socket with same level shards as a +10 R8 would out DD R8 by a whopping 1,100 damage. (.7% increase in dps)

The difference in damage is so slight, it probably wouldn't be noticable. it would come down to build and skill choice to see who tanks, and honestly, they'd prob just play agro tag with eachother.

Is the math getting through to you? R8 users get criticized for +10ing their weapon because "its a dead end weapon." (As if g13 isnt) And for what? Omg you do .7% less damage at +10 wtf noooooooooobbbbbbb!!!!

Im done writing, if you dont understand by now nothing I say will make it any clearer. Have fun trolling the forums.

G13 gets reforged to G15 there is nothing dead end about it. We'll see what happens with r8 reforging and all that jazz, but as of now it is completely dead end. At some point r8 will be replaced by something better, just like mine are about half (750m saved) way to be replaced. Even then they aren't truely replaced as some instances I will use the G13s.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um... there is another difference.

4.0 aps gains 300 chi in 15 seconds, whereas 5.0 aps gains it in 12 seconds. Since sparking comes with a downtime, which I believe is 3 seconds, this means the following:

4.0 aps:
3 second downtime
15 seconds of hitting
Repeat

5.0 aps:
3 seconds of downtime
12 seconds of hitting
Repeat

So, even if the DPS is equal, 4.0 aps is spread across 18 seconds whereas 5.0 aps is spread across 15. That alone gives you 20% more DPS.

And then there's the whole argument that Asterelle brought up somewhere, more sparking = more heals and more immunity, therefore more survivability.

And it is better. Granted, not by much, but it's still there.

Umm, a spark lasts 15 seconds regardless of whether you are 4.0 or 5.0. The difference is the number of times you hit in that 15 seconds and that has already been calculated into the dps calculations previously posted. You are basically comparing 4.0 to 5.0, saying there's a 20% difference, then comparing it again saying there's another 20% difference.

ImNotFiveAps is right on this one. The difference is 1% one way or the other. In my calculations Rank 8 is better than a 1 socket G13, worse than a 2 socket. G13 gives more survivability because its a more frequent heal. Wolf Emblem adds more to Rank 8 damage because of the higher crit rate, and WE only effects critical hits so basically its a 1.4% (WE dmg multiplier) x 1.04% (more critical hits)dps boost. so about 1.5% anyways.


Rank 8 should out DD G13 90% of the time because 90% of G13s are 1 socket. If 2 socket there is about a 5% difference

Refines +10 sparked, Using Pan Gu's Tome. Wolf Emblem unconsidered.
Rank 8 = 110235 dps
2 socket G13 = 116427 dps
Difference = G13 deals 5.6% more
If the G13 only has 1 garnet in it the difference is 5-8% closer towards Rank 8.

The other huuuuuuuge factor is a G13 sin is more prone to sparking early before their spark is up, losing dps. The Rank 8 sin get 300 chi in 15 seconds and then will spark. The G13 sins gets it after 12 seconds (60 hits) and is likely to spark before before 15 seconds has fully passed (75 hits) meaning they can lose 1-15 hits per triple spark. This is why lower refine, lower aps, worse weaponed players can steal aggro off of other players.

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well yes, assuming that you spark as soon as you get 300 chi.

There are a few problems with what you're saying:
1. 4.0 aps can only permaspark assuming that you either use chi skills or never miss.
2. 5.0 aps can permaspark always, unless they happen to miss 15 times, which would be ridiculous.

Misses still give you chi. That's why a barb can chi up by dueling you and "miss miss miss miss hit miss miss miss miss..." Even so, 4.0 is perma spark. For a sin 3.33 is perma spark. 2.86 with a sin can spark 3 times without stopping using chi skills but then you hit cooldowns.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

G13 gets reforged to G15 there is nothing dead end about it. We'll see what happens with r8 reforging and all that jazz, but as of now it is completely dead end. At some point r8 will be replaced by something better, just like mine are about half (750m saved) way to be replaced. Even then they aren't truely replaced as some instances I will use the G13s.

Well word on the streets is most people keep their G13 when tanking bosses they dont want Gof/S.S on. Therefore a lot of people will just farm another set of G13's. R8 would be put in the same situation. Idk, you're different I guess, way to break from the mold.

Empu - Sanctuary

The main argument in favor of 5 aps G13 over 4 aps R8 with pretty much equal dps (depending on the number of sockets and grade of shards, the dps diffence is actually so small that a simple crit can turn the favors around) is more solo-related imo.

In practical situations, it won't make you use subsea/pd more, since squad goes with pulling all the tricks right after spark. So both will use inner harmony for that.

The "real" advantage for me would be to not get forced to a not-sparked status due to a stun/seal/sleep. In squad this would also matter a little ofc, but since you usually start of with 399 chi + tidal/focussed mind and bosses go down way faster, it's not as noticable. When soloing bosses, it can be an advantage though.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

The "real" advantage for me would be to not get forced to a not-sparked status due to a stun/seal/sleep. In squad this would also matter a little ofc, but since you usually start of with 399 chi + tidal/focussed mind and bosses go down way faster, it's not as noticable. When soloing bosses, it can be an advantage though.

Thats the advantage I see. But hey, with a high mag genie like mine (177), I can just use cloud eruption to pop me back up to 3 sparks, then once im unsealed Demon spark > WE > tangling mire and auto attack, which is what Ive been doing in nirv for the last 3 days since I dinged 100.

After using cloud eruption for 130 chi, I only need 48 chi to cast tangling mire. Which I reach about .4 seconds after I cast CE lol. So the benefit there isn't really doing it for me, since it can be made up with my genie.

But soloing yes G13 does give more survivability and chi to play with. Im just not sure thats worth 240mil.

Razorburn - Dreamweaver

240 mill is barely any money these days.
Soloing tt 3rd act for instance easily nets me 50 mill a day. I only get 4 nirvy keys a day and i have to pay 5 openers so tt is actually more lucrative.

Also your 240 mill amount is highly inflated. 100 raps can be bought at 1.5 each and two socket 99 daggers are about 10-20 mill depending on socket stone cost an luck. About 22 mill for transferr stones if bought on sale. So generally speaking g13 double sockets are under 200mill. If you don't care about the second socket they are more like 160 mill.

I have squaded with some good sins that had +10 rank 8 and I wouldn't say they sucked damage wise, they were not any better than g13.

The idea that nirvana is a waste of money is a matter of opinon an not one that the majority share.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Umm, a spark lasts 15 seconds regardless of whether you are 4.0 or 5.0. The difference is the number of times you hit in that 15 seconds and that has already been calculated into the dps calculations previously posted. You are basically comparing 4.0 to 5.0, saying there's a 20% difference, then comparing it again saying there's another 20% difference.

As I pointed out later, I missed something. As I pointed out later, assuming that you spark as soon as you can, the 5.0 will spend more time in immunity, which adds survivability and obviously sparking more often, therefore healing more. If not, then the 5.0 has the advantage of getting more chi and can therefore use Power Dash or Subsea once a while for additional DPS instead.

The other huuuuuuuge factor is a G13 sin is more prone to sparking early before their spark is up, losing dps. The Rank 8 sin get 300 chi in 15 seconds and then will spark. The G13 sins gets it after 12 seconds (60 hits) and is likely to spark before before 15 seconds has fully passed (75 hits) meaning they can lose 1-15 hits per triple spark. This is why lower refine, lower aps, worse weaponed players can steal aggro off of other players.

That's true.

Misses still give you chi. That's why a barb can chi up by dueling you and "miss miss miss miss hit miss miss miss miss..." Even so, 4.0 is perma spark. For a sin 3.33 is perma spark. 2.86 with a sin can spark 3 times without stopping using chi skills but then you hit cooldowns.

It depends on how you do it. Personally, I use a chi skill right after sparking, meaning that I can pull off at least five consecutive triple sparks before I run into any kind of issues. I haven't tested it yet, but I'm pretty sure that I should be able to reach 300 chi if I use Tackling Slash after sparking at 399 chi.

Empu - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Thats the advantage I see. But hey, with a high mag genie like mine (177), I can just use cloud eruption to pop me back up to 3 sparks, then once im unsealed Demon spark > WE > tangling mire and auto attack, which is what Ive been doing in nirv for the last 3 days since I dinged 100.

After using cloud eruption for 130 chi, I only need 48 chi to cast tangling mire. Which I reach about .4 seconds after I cast CE lol. So the benefit there isn't really doing it for me, since it can be made up with my genie.

But soloing yes G13 does give more survivability and chi to play with. Im just not sure thats worth 240mil.

Ofc, you can use genie. I do so too, but you can't negate that using genie for chi means you can't use it for something else. Thus, needing to use your genie for chi represents a sort of opportunity cost.

Razorburn - Dreamweaver wrote: »

240 mill is barely any money these days.
Soloing tt 3rd act for instance easily nets me 50 mill a day. I only get 4 nirvy keys a day and i have to pay 5 openers so tt is actually more lucrative.

I always see you post about soloing TT 3-x, however, that barely has anything to do with weapon. It's majorly about armor, and your ability to regenerate hp back in 1 to 2 sec maximum. If you got armor to withstand hits even when slept/purged/stunned, and a weapon that generates your hp back fast enough (that would be hitman, r8, g13, g15 and r9, but maybe also lower daggers with epic refines), you can solo 3-x. A better weapon would only make it faster.

The reason you seem to think r8 can't solo 3-x, is that r8 is currently more a "low cost" weapon, and thus used by "average" geared players. Put a r8 weap with equal refines + shards on your build, and you will still be able to solo 3-x in pretty much the same time.

Besides, if 240 mil is nothing these days, wtf are you doing with g13? Why don't you have full r9 with JoSD yet? Cause that's just multiple "no money" after all. Thing is, the richer you are, the more money you will make. Soloing 3-x doesn't even apply to 95% of the sin population wearing g13.