The Best Daggers

Airshark - Dreamweaver

This thread is merely a product of my curiosity.

I had shown all of my calculations to a few friends of mine, and one of them said I should post it on the forums because chances are someone else is wondering the same thing.

I was basically trying to find the "best" pair of daggers that I could get somewhat cheaply and that did a fair bit of damage. Any rep or Nirvy daggers would not fall into this category as they are very expensive. (I did, however, add them into my calculations.) I wanted to find a pair of daggers between Hook and endgame daggers.

Honestly? The vast majority of the Assassin world has Hook and Thorn daggers so, yes, I would rather have a different and less used pair of daggers that actually did a good bit of damage in comparison.

I compared a few different daggers, basically ranging from levels 80 to 101.


Long story short, I compared damage from multiple different daggers out of curiosity.

The statistics below are basically just put as Unsparked/Sparked with the average damage spaced a little aways.

(80) Hook and Thorn 
3303-4171/7338-9266	 3738/8302
3.33/5.0

(85) Ghost Cry Thorn 
3407-4423/7412-9623	 3919/8517
2.86/4.0

(90) Hitman Legend 
3516-5771/7896-12961	 4643/10428
4.0/5.0

(90) Backbiter 
3544-4509/7859-9999	 4026/8929
2.86/4.0

(90) Unconsciousness
3383-4431/7598-9951	 3907/8774
2.86/4.0

(99) Midas Touch 
3811-4886/8436-10816	 4348/9626
2.86/4.0

(100) Ocean Supreme  
4138-7043/9293-15818	 5590/12555
2.86/4.0

(100) Barrier Thorn o Nirvana 
3708-4916()/8328-11041	 4312/9684
4.0/5.0

(101) Catastrophe Stinger
4566-6193/10161-13783	 5379/11972
2.86/4.0

Now, I have the same exact "5.0" set for each pair of daggers listed in this whole thread. Nothing had refines or shards, just enough to get the highest amount of APS possible with gear. (Used PWICalc for quickness.)

What I then did with all the average numbers was I tried to average and multiply a few times so that I was able to get daggers that had APS between 2.86 and 4.0 all hitting a whole number per X seconds. They should all be pretty close, because I know my numbers are not exact. I was just trying to get whole numbers to work with.

Also pretty self explanatory, but for example, I've got a list of all the unsparked 2.86 APS daggers hitting 60 hits during the time it takes unsparked 3.33 APS daggers to make 70 hits and unsparked 4.0 daggers to make 84 hits, all of these in 21 seconds.

Unsparked
2.86: 21 sec = 60 hits
				235,140		Ghost Cry Thorn
				241,560		Backbiter
				260,820		Midas Touch
				335,400		Ocean Supreme
				322,740		Catastrophe Stinger
3.33: 21 sec = 70 hits
				261,660		Hook and Thorn
4.0: 21 sec = 84 hits
				362,208		Barrier Thorn o Nirvana

Sparked
4.0: 20 sec = 80 hits
				681,360		Ghost Cry Thorn
				714,320		Backbiter
				770,080		Midas Touch
				1,004,400	Ocean Supreme
				957,760		Catastrophe Stinger
5.0: 20 sec = 100 hits		
				830,200		Hook and Thorn
				1,042,800	Hitman Legend
				968,400		Barrier Thorn o Nirvana

I did not take into account any special chance abilities of daggers (procs?) or attack level (Cata. Stinger), which I might do later.

However, I did find it sad but interesting that TT80 Hook and Thorn (830k in 20 seconds) did better overall than TT99 Midas Touch (770k in 20 seconds), despite the level difference, simply because Hook had APS.

Unfortunately for me, it looks like it isn't really worth it to upgrade to another set of daggers until endgame. b:surrender

krisnda

Airshark - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...I had made a long post but it cut off. I'm guessing there is a post limit I wasn't aware of? @__@

I'll edit this in a few, sorry.

If you have any special characters in it, it probably wont go through.

Airshark - Dreamweaver

Krisnda wrote: »

If you have any special characters in it, it probably wont go through.

The only character I would consider special would be the "filled in circle" I used when I put in "Barrier Thorn Nirvana" (With the dot), and if that's the case I'll edit it out for the main post.

Edit: Yep, thanks!

Olbaze - Sanctuary

So.. what's new?

And btw, first you complain about the costs of reputation items, e.g. Ocean Supreme Dagger and then you put in numbers that contain Nirvana leggings, Rank 8 armor, Pan Gu, Creator. That's a bit silly. For one, those numbers have been done a million times. For two, Pan Gu, Creator costs much, much more most other -interval pieces. For three, DPS does not scale linearly with APS, so you can't just put in the maximum amount of -interval and assume that your conclusion applies to all lower amounts of -interval.

So effectively, this was all a major waste of time.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Well, I agree you seem to be missing a few pieces mathmatically because not all your daggers line up aps-wise, shards/refines are unconsidered, as well as the normal arguments about player skills. Also, Not sure if your 20 second of sparked time considered a 15 second spark for 2.86 aps or what. Anyways, I think recently I started a surge in "lets calculate and compare dagger dps" posts.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1160701 my R8 vs G13 comparison
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1165961 ImNotFiveAps's R8vs G13vs R9 vs G15 comparison.

Basically, H&T has nice interval but **** dmg.
Soul of Sea (TT90) has **** interval, nice damage, and is actually higher dps than H&T when pierce procs, especially considering the squad damage.
Rank 8 at 3.33 is out DD'd but G13 at 5.0
Rank 8 at 4.0 (tome) out DD's G13 at 5.0 if the G13 only has 1 socket. G13 wins with a second socket.
Hitman's have lower DD than Rank 8 and G13 until they hit 5.0 (tome).
Rank 8 has 33% more base dmg than G13 but refines for ****. G13 refines better. So Rank 8 at lower refines has higher dps, G13 at higher refines catches up.
Rank 9 annihilates G13 and Rank 8, and even G15 unless G15 has GoF and -int which would be your highest DD daggers in the game.
Claws are a valid choice for sage sins, dps wise.
At about +10 Rank 8 or G13, the 2% crit of demon mastery is almost equal to the 15% dagger mastery difference of sage, especially if considering attack levels). Below this sage is better, above this demon is better.


Those are all generalizations that are broadly true. Me personally, I don't consider G13 are Rank 8 endgame but are amazing farming tools. G15 with GoF and -int and another add would be the ultimate daggers but people can easily spend 5 billion coin before getting those so I consider Rank 9 daggers (about 800 mil past Rank8/G13) to be endgame. G13 users will get rank 8 for the ring and the armor anyways, so the difference is 220 mil cost for G13 or 2 mil (rank 8 weapon) + a 280 mil tome for rank 8 to be roughly equal dps wise. This means Rank 8+ a tome is 282mil vs 220 mil for G13. Both are untradable throw away weapons once you get R9 but the rank 8 step is a tome (280 mil) closer.


The biggest point I can make when deciding equipment is aps/endgame are an investment. The more you invest now the less you'll die, the more people will want you, the quicker you'll farm, the more coin you'll make.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

r9 or Sac/GoF & 1 or 2x int 2nd cast.
/endthread

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, I agree you seem to be missing a few pieces mathmatically because not all your daggers line up aps-wise, shards/refines are unconsidered, as well as the normal arguments about player skills. Also, Not sure if your 20 second of sparked time considered a 15 second spark for 2.86 aps or what. Anyways, I think recently I started a surge in "lets calculate and compare dagger dps" posts.

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1160701 my R8 vs G13 comparison
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1165961 ImNotFiveAps's R8vs G13vs R9 vs G15 comparison.

Basically, H&T has nice interval but **** dmg.
Soul of Sea (TT90) has **** interval, nice damage, and is actually higher dps than H&T when pierce procs, especially considering the squad damage.
Rank 8 at 3.33 is out DD'd but G13 at 5.0
Rank 8 at 4.0 (tome) out DD's G13 at 5.0 if the G13 only has 1 socket. G13 wins with a second socket.
Hitman's have lower DD than Rank 8 and G13 until they hit 5.0 (tome).
Rank 8 has 33% more base dmg than G13 but refines for ****. G13 refines better. So Rank 8 at lower refines has higher dps, G13 at higher refines catches up.
Rank 9 annihilates G13 and Rank 8, and even G15 unless G15 has GoF and -int which would be your highest DD daggers in the game.
Claws are a valid choice for sage sins, dps wise.
At about +10 Rank 8 or G13, the 2% crit of demon mastery is almost equal to the 15% dagger mastery difference of sage, especially if considering attack levels). Below this sage is better, above this demon is better.


Those are all generalizations that are broadly true. Me personally, I don't consider G13 are Rank 8 endgame but are amazing farming tools. G15 with GoF and -int and another add would be the ultimate daggers but people can easily spend 5 billion coin before getting those so I consider Rank 9 daggers (about 800 mil past Rank8/G13) to be endgame. G13 users will get rank 8 for the ring and the armor anyways, so the difference is 220 mil cost for G13 or 2 mil (rank 8 weapon) + a 280 mil tome for rank 8 to be roughly equal dps wise. This means Rank 8+ a tome is 282mil vs 220 mil for G13. Both are untradable throw away weapons once you get R9 but the rank 8 step is a tome (280 mil) closer.


The biggest point I can make when deciding equipment is aps/endgame are an investment. The more you invest now the less you'll die, the more people will want you, the quicker you'll farm, the more coin you'll make.

For Crit rate, after you hit ~40%, increasing your crit rate more has a diminishing return. Going from 20-40 is a nice bump, going from 40-50 isn't much change. Going from 40-90 is noticable, obviously. If you don't have a 40+% crit rate by endgame, you're doing it wrong.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Explain how critical strikes are a dminishing return pls?

I get that attack levels are critical strike hits are a linear return and are basical 1% crit=1% dmg increase over time.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

For Crit rate, after you hit ~40%, increasing your crit rate more has a diminishing return. Going from 20-40 is a nice bump, going from 40-50 isn't much change. Going from 40-90 is noticable, obviously. If you don't have a 40+% crit rate by endgame, you're doing it wrong.

Can someone ban this guy already? He's dumbing down the sin population with unesearched claims....

And ty for the soutout Saku ;D

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Can someone ban this guy already? He's dumbing down the sin population with unesearched claims....

And ty for the soutout Saku ;D

I'm not a guy.

Going from 40% crit to 42% crit is going to be a ****ing huge increase, you'll **** yourself.

Happy?

Pyrostormz - Raging Tide

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm not a guy.

Going from 40% crit to 42% crit is going to be a ****ing huge increase, you'll **** yourself.

Happy?

your changing to point now

you said it has diminishing returns
that is incorrect

now if you say its not such a big deal, then that is a different conversation, and that in fact may be true

Okeano - Harshlands

Well in a way of % increase it's diminishing return, but if you look at concrete increase, the actual amount of hit points you gain, it's linear.

If you hit 1 damage for 100 times with 0% crit chance, you'll do 100 damage. But if you have 1% crit rate, you'll hit for 101 (statistically speaking). So adding the first crit % increased your DPS by 1%. But with the second crit %, you'll hit for 102 damage in 100 hits, but 1 extra damage is no longer 1% increase from 101 like it was from 100. 1/101 = 0.0099 or 0.99%. If you look further, if you already have 50% crit. The 51st crit % will only increase your DPS by 1/150 or 0.67%.

So adding 1% crit won't always add 1% overall DPS as you increase in crit. But on the other hand, even though you won't gain a full 1% from an extra % of crit, your base DPS is already higher so the smaller % gain from the 1% crit at 50% base crit is actually the same as the damage gained from the first crit, because it's a smaller % of a bigger number. It's easier to see in an example:

We have gained 1 damage from gaining 1% crit at 0 base crit, since 1% of 100 is 1. If you have 50% crit already, you only gain 0.66667% more damage from having 1% more crit, but 0.666667% of 150 is also 1.

To summarize, gaining 1% crit will increase your DPS by the exact same amount, in terms of actual damage, not % of your current damage, regardless of your current crit %. If you already have 75% crit, you'll hit for 175, but gaining the 76th crit will still make you hit 176, or 1 more damage, just as much gain as your first crit.

Rauldaman - Sanctuary

@Sarrafeline, we should meet one day, you seem very straight forward---rauldaman's the name mailbox me

Okeano - Harshlands

Yes, very straight forward and very wrong.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Well in a way of % increase it's diminishing return, but if you look at concrete increase, the actual amount of hit points you gain, it's linear.

...

True but thats semantics. You could look at a 1% increase of 100% damage as linear. You could look at a 1/100 increase of 101% percent as diminishing. Or you could look at the fact that each % crit means you are having less non crits, for instance a 30% crit means you are not crtting 7/10 of the time but another 30% crit means you crit 50% more! Its exponential omg crit is godly /sarcasm! The fact is its linear increase.


-Rauldaman, grats on finding out Sarrafeline has lady parts, but I think you're confusing "straight forward" with loud and wrong.

hiddenmonkey

Your calculations are very broken if Ocean Supreme is higher than Catastrophe Stinger.

Cat has both +30 attack level and chance of 2x damage. Even without the 2x the +30 makes it the superior weapon.

Warsoul is the hardest hitter flat out, but Cata jumps from second to first for its 2x. 1 in 10 2x's is all you need. And you do it so much more than that.