Relentless Courage vs Wind Shield on Genie.

Buff_me - Raging Tide

I can't chose what is better to have on genie for sin..

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

I like wind Shield. it depends on DEX , which teams up well with Poison and Tree of Protection. + the 15% reduce dmg is good when ur not under BB.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Relentless Courage is pretty much a waste.

It eats so much energy off your genie that it's not even nearly spammable.

Overall, Wind Shield will add more damage. Not to mention that low cost means you can combo Wind Shield with Tangling Mire and Extreme Poison.

Empu - Sanctuary

Relentless courage is only good on a high str genie, because at low str it's just weaker then windshield and taking more energy.

Windshield can be used 2 ways : either just lvl1 (with a mag/vit based genie) to make it more spammable, or lvl it to 10 (with a dex based genie) to have a damage reduction effect that is strong.

Personally I don't like relentless courage because of the cooldown. It only lasts 8 sec and a 30 sec cooldown (got it on a str based genie I use only in vana actually). The energy cost also sucks, cause you need 80 str to make it worth using, so your genies regen is slow. In the end you can use it like 1 time per boss.

On my other genie, which is mag based and I use more soloing stuff, I got lvl1 windshield that I can spam non-stop for a minute or 2. I use windshield quite often, contrary to relentless courage. Even if relentless courage is "better" on the 8sec, on long run windshield is more efficient pve wise. I never considered windshield lvl10 on a dex based genie since I'm sage, so the reduction itself is quite useless : when I need damage reduced I spark and don't use windshield.

Buff_me - Raging Tide

But what is more useful in pvp?

Nymphali - Dreamweaver

Wind shield is that skill you may often use to speed up stuff while avoiding to spark.
Relentless courage is not that useful, get Extreme poison instead. b:victory

Dont ask me why i have RC on my genie, im not telling b:chuckle

Buff_me - Raging Tide

Why cant i leave RC on lvl 1(energy cost 50) and spam it but with higher aps(str build)?

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Buff_me - Raging Tide wrote: »

Why cant i leave RC on lvl 1(energy cost 50) and spam it but with higher aps(str build)?

Because level 1 RC has a 3.5 second duration.

Even if you had enough str to get him to a 25% increase, which would be 80 strength, you'd still be stuck at a 3.5 second duration with a 30 second cooldown.

Whereas level 1 Wind Shield has a 10% increase at a spammable cooldown and a duration of 8 seconds.

For example, let's assume the following:
4.0 APS base
Level 1 RC vs Level 1 Wind Shield

RC will get you from 4.0 to 5.0, last 3.5 seconds out of every 30 seconds. That means that the average APS you'd get is:
(3.5/30)*5 + (26.5/30)*4 = 4.116 (~2.9% more DPS)

Wind Shield will get you from 4.0 to 5.0, last 8 seconds out of every 15 seconds. That means that the average APS you'd get is:
(8/15)*5 + (7/15)*4 = 4.533 (~13.3% more DPS)

I chose 15 seconds for Wind Shield because of the 8 second duration: 15 seconds is the duration of a single spark and using Wind Shield twice during a spark might prove redundant. This is also the easiest way to make sure it's always spammable.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Now Olbaze, I am wondering.

Let's say I have a 120 str infliction, which is possible. With the description of RC, I'll be getting a 35% increase to my attack rate.

Does that mean that it'll boost my 2.86 APS with R9 to 5? 25% is the same boost as a Demon spark, which brings me up to 4, but what about RC?

Just wondering XD It might be fun to try it out.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Simple math would say no, Skai.
2.86*1.35=3.861. It would still only boost you to 4aps.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Now Olbaze, I am wondering.

Let's say I have a 120 str infliction, which is possible. With the description of RC, I'll be getting a 35% increase to my attack rate.

Does that mean that it'll boost my 2.86 APS with R9 to 5? 25% is the same boost as a Demon spark, which brings me up to 4, but what about RC?

Just wondering XD It might be fun to try it out.

At 2.86 aps, you're looking at an interval of 0.35. So, we get this:

0.35 * (1-0.35) = 0.35 * 0.65 = 0.2275

However, that would unfortunately round to 0.25, or 4.0 aps. The reason for this is that the game rounds intervals to an accuracy of the neares 0.05, always favoring the player. What this means is that you need at least 0.225 interval to get there.

Now, to answer the follow-up, how much +attack speed% would we need to get there? Well, here we go:

0.35 * (1-x) = 0.225
1-x = 0.225/0.35
x = 1-0.225/0.35
x = 0.3571...
x = 36%

The next question would be: What would your average APS be if you were able to get this? However, I think that question is silly for two reasons. 1. A 124 strength Infliction Genie is highly implausible 2. You obviously can't recover the amount of energy in the passing 30 seconds. And besides, I can't remember how long level 10 Relentless Courage is.

Simple math would say no, Skai.
2.86*1.35=3.861. It would still only boost you to 4aps.

*Facepalm*

Your answer is right. Your method is wrong. You getting the right answer is pretty much a highly-likely coincidence, considering that Demon Spark bring 2.86 to 4.0 and the cap is 5.0.

For reference, attack speed acts as a reduction to the attack interval. The same is true of attack speed reductions, which act as a multiplication to attack interval. Your attack interval, as you might guess, is 1/attack speed.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Why did you do such a complicated aps formula Olbaze? xD

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I'm pretty sure it's a little bit different "PWI" math for interval boosting via %tages, like sparks.

I used the formula before, but it's been quite a while since then.

It was something like 1 divided by your APS rate, multiplied by (1 minus the percent boost (25% for demon spark)), then take that number and round it to the value it's closest to on the interval chart, then take 1 and divide it by that number to get your end aps

So something like

(1/APS) * (1-% boost) = a
Round a to interval value on chart = b
1/b = end APS

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why did you do such a complicated aps formula Olbaze? xD

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's a little bit different "PWI" math for interval boosting via %tages, like sparks.

I used the formula before, but it's been quite a while since then.

It was something like 1 divided by your APS rate, multiplied by (1 minus the percent boost (25% for demon spark)), then take that number and round it to the value it's closest to on the interval chart, then take 1 and divide it by that number to get your end aps

So something like

(1/APS) * (1-% boost) = a
Round a to interval value on chart = b
1/b = end APS

See my edit on the post.

I find it highly funky that you'd claim to know the APS formula with that, since 3.33 * 1.25 = 4.1625, which would round to 4.0, not 5.0 and you'd not have your previous 3.33 sparking to 5.0.

Trust me, I'm fairly confident in my usage of formulas. Because I do math.

It was something like 1 divided by your APS rate, multiplied by (1 minus the percent boost (25% for demon spark)), then take that number and round it to the value it's closest to on the interval chart, then take 1 and divide it by that number to get your end aps

You're almost there, just a few explaining steps.

1. 1/APS, naturally, would be your attack interval
2. (1-attack speed%), multiplied by your attack interval would obviously be a boost to your attack speed, as it is a reduction to your attack interval
3. The actual rounding rule is that you round it to the nearest multiple of 0.05 and in case of being in the middle, you round down. The reason for the rounding lies in the fact that the game has all attack speeds measured in attack interval at multiples of 0.05.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Yeah I see it now. I don't comprehend how my method is wrong.
Her base attack rate is 2.86. The bonus in question is a 35% increase in base attack rate.
2.86*35% or 0.35 is the bonus attack rate.
2.86*1 is the base attack rate.
Thus, 2.86*1.35 is the base attack rate with the bonus added on.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah I see it now. I don't comprehend how my method is wrong.
Her base attack rate is 2.86. The bonus in question is a 35% increase in base attack rate.
2.86*35% or 0.35 is the bonus attack rate.
2.86*1 is the base attack rate.
Thus, 2.86*1.35 is the base attack rate with the bonus added on.

Your method is wrong because attack speed bonuses are applied as reductions to attack interval, not as multiplication to your attack speed.

Trust me, I'm 100% on this.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Ah, thank you Olbaze XD


This is my current genie, so getting 120 str on a 81+ LP Infliction would be possible, and other stats would be decent with the Warsong Medal genie gear.

I'm just wondering because it would be a pretty neat idea to have 5 seconds of sparked 5APS with R9. Though it wouldn't be that useful, it'd be something different to un-bore myself XD

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I know you're confident on your math, as you did the flawless work on the PWcalc's interval calculation.

The proof is all there, so if I mess up, I can always turn to experts like you XD

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I know you're confident on your math, as you did the flawless work on the PWcalc's interval calculation.

The proof is all there, so if I mess up, I can always turn to experts like you XD

Maybe I've had too much coffee and Pepsi and Coca Cola and Mountain Dew and other similar beverages in the past few years and have gone demented, but I don't recall ever being part of the PWCalc project.

I might've pointed out that the interval was still messed up when the original guy made a topic in General. The interval also used to be messed up, back in the days when they didn't own the .com URL.

Though, I'd like to point out that anything I said can also be found right here. Then again I'm probably one of the few people who actually remember the relevant formulas for damage calculation on my own class.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Maybe I've had too much coffee and Pepsi and Coca Cola and Mountain Dew and other similar beverages in the past few years and have gone demented, but I don't recall ever being part of the PWCalc project.

I might've pointed out that the interval was still messed up when the original guy made a topic in General. The interval also used to be messed up, back in the days when they didn't own the .com URL.

I remember you posted somewhere that you helped fix the calculations on interval with the PWCalc.

I mean, I'm pretty sure it was you. b:shocked

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

I remember you posted somewhere that you helped fix the calculations on interval with the PWCalc.

I mean, I'm pretty sure it was you. b:shocked

Who knows, context would be awesome.

Because back when they did not own the .com URL and it was .ru, the attack speed round-up was messed up in some cases and I was kinda always pointing that out.

I might've pointed it out when the owner of the site made the adjustments for the Assassins and made a topic asking for comments and feedback on the forum.

However, it is a fact that PWCalc does still have a few fuzzy rounding things here and there. Some refine numbers are off by a few points, damage numbers might be off by some. In the case of the damage, it's probably another rounding issue.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Your method is wrong because attack speed bonuses are applied as reductions to attack interval, not as multiplication to your attack speed.

I was well aware that this is how attack rate modifications from gear works, but I thought other modifiers such as demon spark, RB, genie skills, etc. were straight up bonuses to attack rate. I just did some math myself and found that is wrong.
Thank you for setting me straight.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

I was well aware that this is how attack rate modifications from gear works, but I thought other modifiers such as demon spark, RB, genie skills, etc. were straight up bonuses to attack rate. I just did some math myself and found that is wrong.
Thank you for setting me straight.

Do note that, as I mentioned, attack speed reductions, such as Rib Strike, are also applied to the attack interval, though they are applied as a positive multiplication. And all forms of attack rate changes, e.g. Chill of the Deep and Demon Spark, are additive.

Strangely, Chill of the Deep with Demon Spark creates a unique situation where having more than 5 aps before any multipliers are applies actually counts for something. The only way to get 5 aps with Demon Chill of the Deep and Demon Spark is to have an attack interval of 0.15, which in most other cases would be no different from 0.2, as that's the cap.

@Skai: I checked the PWCalc thread and the ones who point out the interval issues were Wunderkind and Okeano. Wunderkind first pointed out that it wasn't functioning properly and Okeano later explained how it worked.

Then again I doubt I'd ever flaunt something like being part of fixing pwcalc around as some kind of credential, considering that pwcalc is an unofficial project.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nonetheless your math here helped a large number of confused sins who were new to intervals, such as myself (back in the day).

Typhyse - Sanctuary

That being said, it might be possible that against someone with just the right aps, there would be no difference between level 10 and Demon Ribstrike's effect?

Well this in interesting...
Not only can you not put the debuffs of the class you choose in PWcalc on your calculation, Ribstrike is not in there. There is a row for sin debuffs but none are there.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ah I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Nonetheless your math here helped a large number of confused sins who were new to intervals, such as myself (back in the day).

Well yes, I still do that stuff. And generally speaking, my personal opinion is that the best opinion to have is one that is backed by facts. Preferably facts that make most people vomit on sight. That is, math.

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

That being said it might be possible that against someone with just the right aps, there would be no difference between level 10 and Demon Ribstrike's effect?

Well yes. Good question. But before that, I'd like to point out that the reason the way you were previously counting attack rate works is because the difference between that and the right method ranges from 0.083 - 0.25 difference in the attack speed. Or well, that's true for attack rates between 1 and 4, with Demon Spark.

As for your question, the answer is no. Well, the actual point where Demon Rib Strike is equal to level 10 Rib Strike would be at exactly 6 aps. Which, of course, never happens in the game. Interestingly, that is the only point where it happens: at the "achievable" 6.66 aps, level 10 Rib Strike would prove useless whereas Demon Rib Strike would put them at 4 aps. Similarly, at 5 aps, you're looking at 3.33 vs 2.86.

And since 6 aps doesn't exist in the game in any form at all, the answer is a definitive no.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Thank goodness. I got myself worried for a moment there that Demon Ribstrike might actually have a useless/near useless effect xD

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Thank goodness. I got myself worried for a moment there that Demon Ribstrike might actually have a useless/near useless effect xD

Well, it's not.

Interestingly, after a closer examination of the impossible interval points, I found the following:

At 0.15, Demon Rib Strike > Level 10 Rib Strike
At 0.1, Demon Rib Strike = Level 10 Rib Strike
At 0.05, Demon Rib Strike > Level 10 Rib Strike

Damn, if only I had a proper program to draw a graph of this. Because I'm quite certain that the equation goes totally bonkers after the 6 aps point.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Damn, if only I had a proper program to draw a graph of this. Because I'm quite certain that the equation goes totally bonkers after the 6 aps point.

Yeah it would, but there are only 2 points between 6.66 and no interval.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Though, I'd like to point out that anything I said can also be found right here.

While it's awesome that you linked to the wiki, I do have to point out the date of origin for that section. That part came into being in an effort to clean up the wiki within the last couple of months. As the section creator, I compiled that info from the threads on this subforum and the archer subforum. Asterelle was then kind enough to reword my lack of eloquence.

So really, that particular section was based partially off of you work.

- credit where credit is due

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah it would, but there are only 2 points between 6.66 and no interval.

That is true for PWI.

In fact, for PWI, the graph of the intervals is rather boring, since it's either not a constant graph at all or it's mostly flatlining.

Though, if you remove the rounding at the end, you'd probably end up with a funky piece. Too bad I'm
having a blackout moment and can't figure it out.

Yeah, I totally need to go sleep. I just realized that I have no clue what I've been doing for the past while. Though I can guarantee that I am right on the Demon Rib Strike matter, as it's easily verifiable.