Rank 8 vs. G13

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I've seen alot of sins taking **** for having rank 8 and less aps than a G13, I've experience some of the hate myself, and have been in squads that took the +4 G13 5 aps sin over the +10 Rank 8 4.0 because "5.0 > 4.0 and 5 aps is always better...."

So, in an attempt to wisen myself and the sin community I thought I'd throw some numbers out there. I remeber these calcs were popular during the first General Summer's Sale comparing Rank to G13 but I haven't seen any in the last few months. This is an attempt to remain object, explore both hi and low refines, and to educate myself. So here goes my study:

What I consider a reasonable late game sin build. I will also do calcs with a Pan Gu's tome. I won't be considering attack levels because gear won't change and neither weapon contains attack levels themselves, not to mention the difference in use of attack levels in PvE vs PvP.

Rank 8 Dagger
G13 Nirvana Barrier Thorns



Unrefined Damage average of Rank 8: 887 dph
Unrefined Damage average of G13: 753.5 dph
Rank 8 has an initial dph that is 17.7% higher thank G13


Refine Rates.....Rank 8........ G13
1.................... +19........ +21
2.................... +38......... +42
3.................... +57......... +64
4.................... +81......... +90
5.................... +108........ +120
6.................... +143........ +158
7.................... +189........ +208
8.................... +247........ +273
9.................... +323........ +358
10.................. +423........ +468
11.................. +551........ +609
12.................. +712........ +787

Oddly enough, Rank gear refine rates suck. Despite being grade 14 they refine at a rate closer to G12 giving an edge to Nirvana the higher its refined.

Calcs: When calculating I will be using average Physical Attack Damage from the character info sheet on pwcalc, multiplying it by crit rate, then multiplying that by attack rate. Both characters will have demon dagger devotion selected. I will be using Garnets G11 x 2. This favors the G13 daggers by adding dph equally to both weapons and G13 having the higher attack rate. Also, the chances of having a 2 socket rank weapon is 100% but only 10% for G13, but assume both have 2 sockets.

Refines + 10, unsparked
Rank 8 = 33369 dps
G13 = 37544 dps
Difference = G13 deals 12.5% more

Refines + 0, sparked
Rank 8 = 70948 dps
G13 = 83228 dps
Difference=G13 deals 17.3%

Refines +10, sparked
Rank 8 = 89895 dps
G13 = 114010 dps
Difference = G13 deals 26.8% more

Refines + 0 sparked, Using Pan Gu's Tome
Rank 8 = 87000 dps
G13 = 84993 dps
Difference = Rank 8 deals 2.4% more

Refines +10 sparked, Using Pan Gu's Tome
Rank 8 = 110235 dps
G13 = 116427 dps
Difference = G13 deals 5.6% more

If the G13 only has 1 garnet in it the difference is 5-8% closer towards Rank 8.

Prior to getting a Pan Gu's, the G13s out dps the Rank 8 weapon 17-27% (an average difference of about 3 refine levels). The rank 8 consistently had a higher dph with equal refines. When a Pan Gu's tome is used the Rank 8 weapon will out DD the G13s at lower refines but G13 catches up and passes Rank 8 when refined. This happens at +6 refines.



SAGE + 10, unsparked
Rank 8 = 67504 dps
G13 = 75926 dps
Difference = G13 deals 12.5% more

SAGE +10 sparked, Using Pan Gu's Tome
Rank 8 = 78846 dps
G13 = 93147 dps
Difference = G13 deals 18.1% more

Wanted to also point out that because interval grows exponentially the difference is not as great for sage who have naturally lower aps and do not benefit from the -.1 interval as much, but who's mastery would benefit the higher base damage of Rank 8.


Overall impression: G13 wins in most comparisons. The difference between rank 8 and G13 daggers is about 2-3 levels of refining usually. The lower the refine on the weapon, the more rank 8 is favored and the higher the refine G13 becomes favored. For sage, G13 may be favored to help get near perma sparking, but the difference between the two weapons is even less for Sage Sins. Rank 8 + Pan Gu's is almost equivilant to G13 daggers.

Recomendations: If you see G15 or Rank 9 as your endgame, go for Rank 8 save yourself 275 mil and get a Pan Gu's now instead. If you see Rank 8 or G13 as something you'll have for a long time, go G13. If you can't afford G13 and need a farming weapon then use Rank 8 because its a few refines or a better shard away from being equal. Rank 8 may be preferable to G13 for PvP because of the larger dph.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Excellent comparison chart. I've seen the question of r8 vs. g13 brought up so often lately that this should be stickied b:victory

AlbireoTwo - Lost City

Without a pan gus tome, would rank 8 make a good weapon? I'm not sure how it works, but 2.5 aps unsparked seems like it would do rather low damage (excuse me for my ignorance in this part....). And what would make a better weapon- Hitman legends or rank 8? Hitman legends would make the aps 3.33 unsparked, whereas rank 8 would be 2.5. Although the price difference would mean the rank 8 could be refined higher, I would like a comparison of unrefined weapons.

Empu - Sanctuary

Something also take into account : r8 now seems the first thing to get for "end-game" gear, since it gives the chest part, and daggers/leggings that are good even if you wish to replace them later on. You take into account 2.5 aps from armor (like you say, endgame), but from my experience r8 is obtained even before tt99 parts. I you put in shards and refines on r8 daggers, is it really worth the extra cost for G13 ? (If you consider you get r8 for the chest part, the daggers are near free, while G13 is rather expensive, especially 2 sockets) Is it worth getting G13 before the armor comes to end-game setup, to save sharding/refining r8 dagger ? I think the hardest part in r8 vs G13 is the evolution context, especially now both can be considered as "intermediate" weapons, and not really the best dps.

Also, a little thing of myself, the dph is something that can make someone prefer r8 to G13 too :P

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

@AlbireoTwo Hitman legends would only bring you from 2.5 unsparked to 2.86 unsparked. If the calculators haven't updated by now, Hitmans only give -0.05 int, not -.1.

and @Empu

The dilemma you mention with the evolution context is what I went through. Albeit I was a tad bit late on that. When I got my R8 armor and daggers, I was still in my clawsin gear. I liked the DPS gain I got from R8, but I was still slightly ignorant of permasparking with R8 daggers.

The first dilemma I ran into was: "Would it be worth it to refine my R8 daggers to +10 to help me farm? Or just stick with 5 aps Deicides or even low refined R8 until I farm up G13 vanas?"

Luckily for me, because of my friendly nature, reputation, and sin-know how, I was able to get into good vana squads often, and eventually farmed up my first cast daggers.


At this point I restatted to dex, sold my Deicides for shards/refines for my new daggers, and immediately +10'd and 2 G11 garnet'd them. As I've said in another post, I thought that these daggers were going to be my permanent end-game ones. XD Oh how little did I know back then.

I finally hit 5 aps with daggers, and used those to farm up my 2nd cast legs and helm. Then, after going into the faction I'm in now, and meeting a lot of very informative and awesome people/sins, I learned about how much better R9 and G15/2nd cast daggers were. I saw the DPS of +12 R9 in front of my own eyes, and how it only took him 1 hit to kill a 50k hp lvl 80 mini-boss, and how that my crits aren't even close to his.

I was in awe because I didn't know that the sin DPS can go up that high. And from there I ran into my 2nd dilemma, R9 or G15.

For me, because I sharded and refined my G13 vanas so quickly, the cost of getting R9 ring and G15 vanas with all of the refines/sockets/shards of my G13 would cost about the same as getting the R9 ring and R9 daggers. Plus there were reforging costs to think about.

In the end, I went R9, and I'm loving it quite a bit


But I want to reiterate how dilemmas are the hardest to deal with when you're aiming for end-game. Mainly the concept of "how will I get there?"

You could refine your R8 to a high number to aid in getting your G13 vanas quickly, or save the money and not refine high, and use that money, as well as more time, to farm G13 vanas in a different manner.

Or after you obtain your G13 vanas, will you shard them and refine them high to basically serve as a weapon you'll be using for a long time, or don't shard/refine them well and save that money to eventually upgrade to a G15 or even R9?

And even then, you'd have to think how it would go. Lower refines/shards means you save money, yes, but you'll have slower Vana runs that can be frustrating at times. Higher refines/shards means you'll start off with a lot less money, but runs would be quicker and you'll find squads a lot faster with your much-higher DPS.

It just keeps going on. I'm just glad I passed all of that stage and am finally a +12 R9 4 aps demon sparked sin. XD

Empu - Sanctuary

@ Skai : yes, there is a "what is my final goal?" and then the "how do I get there?". The end goal of most is pretty much the same (armor setup for maximum aps, then r9 or G15 with -0.05 int and sacr ***/GoF). However, the path to get there differs a lot. You can't base only on dps, like seem to be the general idea. The armor you have to start with, the time/effort you are willing to put in, the real cash, your friends, maybe having another main toon, personal preference for survivability or damage, etc. I think all those things bring in more weight then the actual dps difference between both weapons.

I used r8 a long time (was rank8 before they started to sell it in cashshop), and loved them because I like a good dph. There were 2 main reason for r8 : a high dph weapon, and not using a lvl60 chest like most did that time (as an original barb player, I focus a lot on survivability). Even though a lot changed since then (at that time you could consider the difference being -0.05 int because nobody had a chest part with -0.1 int), I never regretted. Pure dps calculations only suit vana imo, and even there with all the seals and moving that is questionable, for the rest there is more to take into account then just that.

Ursa - Dreamweaver

yeah, I've been doing the same math for my sin today, and came to the exact same results.
with a interval tome, R8 and Nirv daggers come painfully close in DPS. So close in fact, that if you're thinking R9 as endgame gear, it's not even worth it to get G13 for farming.

thanks OP though for putting up some nice numbers with diff combos of refines and DPS. Good job, Sticky ASAP!

HellWariorB - Raging Tide

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

@AlbireoTwo Hitman legends would only bring you from 2.5 unsparked to 2.86 unsparked. If the calculators haven't updated by now, Hitmans only give -0.05 int, not -.1.

and @Empu

The dilemma you mention with the evolution context is what I went through. Albeit I was a tad bit late on that. When I got my R8 armor and daggers, I was still in my clawsin gear. I liked the DPS gain I got from R8, but I was still slightly ignorant of permasparking with R8 daggers.

The first dilemma I ran into was: "Would it be worth it to refine my R8 daggers to +10 to help me farm? Or just stick with 5 aps Deicides or even low refined R8 until I farm up G13 vanas?"

Luckily for me, because of my friendly nature, reputation, and sin-know how, I was able to get into good vana squads often, and eventually farmed up my first cast daggers.


At this point I restatted to dex, sold my Deicides for shards/refines for my new daggers, and immediately +10'd and 2 G11 garnet'd them. As I've said in another post, I thought that these daggers were going to be my permanent end-game ones. XD Oh how little did I know back then.

I finally hit 5 aps with daggers, and used those to farm up my 2nd cast legs and helm. Then, after going into the faction I'm in now, and meeting a lot of very informative and awesome people/sins, I learned about how much better R9 and G15/2nd cast daggers were. I saw the DPS of +12 R9 in front of my own eyes, and how it only took him 1 hit to kill a 50k hp lvl 80 mini-boss, and how that my crits aren't even close to his.

I was in awe because I didn't know that the sin DPS can go up that high. And from there I ran into my 2nd dilemma, R9 or G15.

For me, because I sharded and refined my G13 vanas so quickly, the cost of getting R9 ring and G15 vanas with all of the refines/sockets/shards of my G13 would cost about the same as getting the R9 ring and R9 daggers. Plus there were reforging costs to think about.

In the end, I went R9, and I'm loving it quite a bit


But I want to reiterate how dilemmas are the hardest to deal with when you're aiming for end-game. Mainly the concept of "how will I get there?"

You could refine your R8 to a high number to aid in getting your G13 vanas quickly, or save the money and not refine high, and use that money, as well as more time, to farm G13 vanas in a different manner.

Or after you obtain your G13 vanas, will you shard them and refine them high to basically serve as a weapon you'll be using for a long time, or don't shard/refine them well and save that money to eventually upgrade to a G15 or even R9?

And even then, you'd have to think how it would go. Lower refines/shards means you save money, yes, but you'll have slower Vana runs that can be frustrating at times. Higher refines/shards means you'll start off with a lot less money, but runs would be quicker and you'll find squads a lot faster with your much-higher DPS.

It just keeps going on. I'm just glad I passed all of that stage and am finally a +12 R9 4 aps demon sparked sin. XD

can i PM u ingame for some tips for an R9 sin plss

DarkShadowz$ - Sanctuary

Yea I Also Did The Maths and Found Your Results Very Similar to mine therefore im heading towards the rank 8 path and hopefully after getting the tome my next aim would be r9 but i have a long way to go.b:chuckleb:chuckle

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

HellWariorB - Raging Tide wrote: »

can i PM u ingame for some tips for an R9 sin plss

Sure, but it's better to just post here. That way I can see your question, and other R9 sins can help too.

HellWariorB - Raging Tide

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sure, but it's better to just post here. That way I can see your question, and other R9 sins can help too.

well i asked because i want to see for myself and ask few tips in person - need some advice on gears and refines and farming options on the R9 sin

his gears approximatively http://pwcalc.com/41713721be993fc3

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

With that gear, you should be fine duoing 3-1 to 3-3 TT with a cleric friend, as long as you know what you're doing.

The easiest way to farm coin would be doing Nirvana runs during x2 (just keep saving keys). It's not as well-paying as TT during x2, but it's a lot easier to adapt to. I farm nirvy more because I just dislike TT for no apparent reason.

Just keep farming Nirvy until you have enough coin to +5 your ornaments, +10 your legs, and get 2nd cast TT nirvy LA helm (Ancestral Divine Hat). +10 that as soon as possible.

I also notice that your sin has quite a lot of extra strength that he doesn't quite need. Restatting that to dex either now or after you farm your 2nd cast hat would help you a lot in DPS.

HellWariorB - Raging Tide

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

With that gear, you should be fine duoing 3-1 to 3-3 TT with a cleric friend, as long as you know what you're doing.

The easiest way to farm coin would be doing Nirvana runs during x2 (just keep saving keys). It's not as well-paying as TT during x2, but it's a lot easier to adapt to. I farm nirvy more because I just dislike TT for no apparent reason.

Just keep farming Nirvy until you have enough coin to +5 your ornaments, +10 your legs, and get 2nd cast TT nirvy LA helm (Ancestral Divine Hat). +10 that as soon as possible.

I also notice that your sin has quite a lot of extra strength that he doesn't quite need. Restatting that to dex either now or after you farm your 2nd cast hat would help you a lot in DPS.

ty for info - still need some experience in TT- i will try to gain more experience in these domain as soon as possible

crying2

I did some math too and had bit different variables but pretty much same conclusion

Been wondering if I should keep using my H&T's when get r8 or go with r8 dagger wich seemed to me reealy good with 2 max attack +185 addons and +4% crit. or is the -0.1 int in H&Ts better.

With the pwcalc and excel
came to conclusion that r8 is way better than H&T's with 2.5 base aps sparked.

Now is the G13 worth getting? or keep R8 and farm rest -int pieces I need.

With my current gear+r8plate the r8 dagger out damaged G13!
If I get 3.33aps before dags. G13 is way better.

But if you get to all the way to 4aps the r8 is almost as good as G13
And if I got 4aps already (in year 2015) then getting r9 dags+r9 ring seems better investment than G13.

Of course higher aps would mean more chi gain wich I dont count in this sheet but after high base aps it dosent realy matter..

Here is the sheet I made. all dags r unsharded and damage output is for Dsparked. And think sharding works on rank gears favor since rank dags r always 2socket and G13 got only 10% lucky shot to go 2socket.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AoIxIa7hdYaidDViQlVvekFGVTVTSTFRYUdaMUpUM1E&single=true&gid=0&output=html

Pls check it and correct me if I am wrong.
Think will get R8 dags and farm rest of my gear and then go for R9

Damageplan/Care

endlesspsy

every nirvana weapon is a waste of money and not a smart weapon of coice right now. raptures at 2m+ Eff that. waste of money and a weak g13 weapon. g15? might as well go rank 9

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

The basic conclusion to make right now is dont get nirvy. G13 or G15, neither. Go R8 then save up for R9. By the time you get decent adds on G15 the cost is almost the same as rank 9 daggers.

endlesspsy

Theres too many dumbasses that think 5 aps is overpowered compared to 3.33 sparked rank 8. And they only take 5aps in nirvana. your basically wasting 200m just to kill bosses 10 seconds faster..Wooo big fawking difference

Olbaze - Sanctuary

endlesspsy wrote: »

Theres too many dumbasses that think 5 aps is overpowered compared to 3.33 sparked rank 8. And they only take 5aps in nirvana. your basically wasting 200m just to kill bosses 10 seconds faster..Wooo big fawking difference

Most people go for 5 aps for a few reasons:
1. To get into high APS WC nirvanas
2. To be able to use a spark macro on bosses and afk
3. Because they think aps = dps
4. Because they're demon

The first makes no sense, as a good person will be invited to Nirvanas via faction chat or whispers from people.

The second is just lazy, which isn't surprising from people. A stupid choice if there ever was one.

The third is what most people, being lazy or stupid as they are, seem to believe. Of course, figuring out the actual DPS of a person isn't really easy. Mainly because most people simply don't know how powerful certain weapons at high refines as. Which in turn has been fueled by everyone going for the same weapons, in the assassin case Barrier Thorn: Nirvana.

The fourth is the least of a reason. For a demon sin, it's extremely easy to end up with 5.0 aps without specifically going for it. Mainly because you only need -0.05 on your endgame weapon to get there and there's tons of choices for that: Hitman Legend, G13 Nirvana, G15 Nirvana. That's pretty much 3 out of 5 "endgame" grade weapons. And yes, I consider Ocean Supreme Dagger an endgame choice, considering that at 2.86 and endgame sharding and refining, it rivals a 5.0 aps BM in DPS.

Razorburn - Dreamweaver

While dps is important its also very important to have chi production without the need to use slow skills to get it. Im 4.0 base then 5.0 sparked and even I run out of chi alot, I can't imagine slowing down to 3.33 or 4.0.
Sure I intend to also get rank 9 someday, but honestly its expensive enough that that someday is a long ways in the future, for now I couldn't be happier with g13 and what it alows me to do in game as far as farming.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Razorburn - Dreamweaver wrote: »

While dps is important its also very important to have chi production without the need to use slow skills to get it. Im 4.0 base then 5.0 sparked and even I run out of chi alot, I can't imagine slowing down to 3.33 or 4.0.
Sure I intend to also get rank 9 someday, but honestly its expensive enough that that someday is a long ways in the future, for now I couldn't be happier with g13 and what it alows me to do in game as far as farming.

Uhhhh... What? I can perma-spark at 1.67 APS on my Sin. You should be perma-sparked very easily at 4.0. If you aren't, you're doing it wrogn.

Razorburn - Dreamweaver

Please if you can post a video of your sin soloing say 3-2 minister or emperor something comparable.
I have so much trouble keeping sparked, I usually triple spark,inner harmony,powerdash (genie debuff)-auto attack. I also use maze steps when possible driectly after a spark while tidal protection is on cool down an/or while vacuity powder is on cool down. I assure you, if i slow down or am not protected for even a few seconds minister will wipe the floor with me.
I use same opening on emperor too only I dont use vacuity powder, but while maze steps an tidal are on cool down i definitely have issues being stunned an slowing down to unsparked status.
All that an I am like i said im 4.0 base demon 5.0, So on these particular two bosses what am i doing wrong?

Missyo - Heavens Tear

... you guys still dont realize that the diferences are really small. math cant really apply when you got crit chances/GoF/SS which you dont take into consideration. my opinion: if you wanna be safe, have a good weapon (kick *** weapon) go with R9 and 4 aps. its cheapest method to get highest DPS.

Okeano - Harshlands

Missyo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... you guys still dont realize that the diferences are really small. math cant really apply when you got crit chances/GoF/SS which you dont take into consideration. my opinion: if you wanna be safe, have a good weapon (kick *** weapon) go with R9 and 4 aps. its cheapest method to get highest DPS.

Yes, the GoF and SS on R8 or G13 daggers total f**ks up the math. I mean what were we thinking, trying to use statistics and averages? What morons!

_Perses_ - Lost City

11 - 8 = 3

Three month necro.

congratz dumb veno.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Missyo - Heavens Tear wrote: »

... you guys still dont realize that the diferences are really small. math cant really apply when you got crit chances/GoF/SS which you dont take into consideration. my opinion: if you wanna be safe, have a good weapon (kick *** weapon) go with R9 and 4 aps. its cheapest method to get highest DPS.

The highest DD weapon in the game...will give us the highest dps? XD why didn't I think of that.

Actually, I did apply the statistic probability of crit rates. I can apply the statistic probability of GoF and SS. How they actually play out in real life isn't always accurate though. You'll see wall of crits when you only have a 40% crit rate and instead of a perfect 4/10 attacks being crits you just hit 18/20. Other times the person with the same weapon and 2 less refines will out dd you because you haven't hit a crit in two sparks.

The math is all kind of "what you can expect" not "what will actually happen" and if anything was to show the differences where really small, like you pointed out. I know a bunch of 4.0 r8 and r9 sins that were having trouble getting squads because "5.0 only" idiots exist. Well, mathmatically R8 4.0 can out DD a G13 5.0 and a R9 4.0 can definitely out DD a G13 sin with equal refines/skill so why are squads making an issue of it.

More important to me are things like skill level. Do you spark after 12, 13, 14, or 15 seconds? Do you genie debuff on your own sparks/ combine frenzy with other amps? Can you time your spark to the debuffs? Combine those factors with decent weapon DD and you have something.

Not to mention we're playing a computer game that is 100% based on mathmatic algorithms.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

And the necro is dragged on by Saku!
*grabs popcorn*

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

And the necro is dragged on by Typhese!
*grabs popcorn*

*grabs some of Typhyse' popcorn*