I am a fail.

StacysMum - Dreamweaver

Oh god too tired, but somebody attacked my math so Grrrrrr flames of fury

I said exponential growth Deccy boy not multiplier.

You are probably right about the affordability thing though XD But then again if ppl got the time and money to get full Nirvana then full R9 is not really that far off, refines might take a bit longer though XD
As for using a Vit tome on a Vit build being redundant maybe you don't quite understand how obsessed some of these ppl are with VIT some even use HA, and not for the extra resistance.

Boss coming byee XD

Decus - Dreamweaver

StacysMum - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I said exponential growth Deccy boy not multiplier.

Stacy girl, it's not exponential. Get your facts straight.

StacysMum - Dreamweaver

My bad think I was a loopy. Meant difference in damage between builds was exponential as you go up in levels gear refines and adds skills etc.
Damage difference Growth (non linear)
10
50 (40)
200 (150) (110)
750 (550) (400)
is just example of what I mean

Decus - Dreamweaver

StacysMum - Dreamweaver wrote: »

My bad think I was a loopy. Meant difference in damage between builds was exponential as you go up in levels gear refines and adds skills etc.
Damage difference Growth (non linear)
10
50 (40)
200 (150) (110)
750 (550) (400)
is just example of what I mean

And from where are those numbers? On what kind of gear/build did you base your evidence? I can throw things up and make claims with them, but that doesn't make them right without any proof.

Here's my proof:

Refines/skills/procs are all directly proportional increases to one's base damage and char level is added to weapon attack, so that is irrelevant. (More on this in a sec.) I'll take a full mag theoretical level 105 build (call it A) and pit it up against a 50 vit base (call it B) at the same level with identical refines on weapons. I do not include any additional gear for the reason I stated earlier. (All dmg data is truncated and rounded up to the nearest integer.)


With a r8 glaive at +10 (at +12)

Avg mattk A --> 11676 (13953)
Avg mattk B --> 10763 (12861)
Difference --> 913 (1092)
A / B --> 1.08

With a 2nd cast glaive at +10 (at +12)

Avg mattk A --> 11831 (14281)
Avg mattk B --> 10905 (13163)
Difference --> 926 (1145)
A / B --> 1.08

With a r9 glaive at +10 (at +12)

Avg mattk A --> 12681 (15002)
Avg mattk B --> 11730 (13850)
Differece --> 951 (1152)
A / B --> 1.08

Thus the three weaps are proportionally the same and you'll see that the differences are almost within one standard deviation of each other (I blame rounding errors qq).

Now let's try something different, let's stick with a level 80 weap and go from 80 --> 90 --> 100 with the same stat distributions as before (55 str, 5/50 vit, whatever mag is appropriate at that level)...

With a TT80 sword +5 at 80:

Avg mattk A --> 4453
Avg mattk B --> 4008
Differece --> 445
A / B --> 1.11

With a TT80 sword +5 at 90:

Avg mattk A --> 4998
Avg mattk B --> 4549
Differece --> 449
A / B --> 1.10

With a TT80 sword +5 at 100:

Avg mattk A --> 5553
Avg mattk B --> 5098
Differece --> 455
A / B --> 1.09

With a TT80 sword +5 at 105:

Avg mattk A --> 5834
Avg mattk B --> 5378
Differece --> 456
A / B --> 1.08 (thus we hit the old proportion from before)

The differences are still linear and in fact the proportion of the two mattks is tending to 1. This is because the pool of mag to vit is so much larger at 105 than it is at 80. The data would suggest that the effectiveness of having 50 vit is technically greater (in terms of mattk) at higher levels than it is at lower levels.

What was it you were saying again?

StacysMum - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...difference in damage between builds was exponential as you go up in levels gear refines and adds skills etc.

Nope. b:bye

thumbs

Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't think you quite understand what Janus said earlier about affordability... Unless ofc, you think everyone can run around with this as the standard gear.

The pure is going to be more efficient with their time and MP, and thus afford better equips.

You're premise is flawed. It's redundant to use a vit tome on a vit cleric. The fact of the matter is the full int cleric will always have more mattk, and no one was arguing that. Again, I think you missed the point earlier.

No; it's redundant to stat vit when you could have used a vit tome instead.

Arguing DPS is silly for arcanes... And again, no one said full vit hits more than full int.

Arguing DPS isn't silly for arcanes. Many of the melee DD's out there are far from 5.0, Assassins don't even exist as 5.0 unless they spark, and for most clearing; melee's aren't sparking on each mob and are far from 5.0 w/o spark. My veno's dps humbles most archers and is extremely effective for flying through dailies or taking down Barbs / BMs in TW.

ridiculouss

Ah, I see. Thanks for the "shard with Garnets" reply: I'll change it right away. As for refines go, they'll be at least +5 if not more. I will specifically be a demon TW cata cleric with r8 and Archangel sleeves + sash. I doubt I'll be killing anyone, and my build is largely focused on tanking others via pk mechanisms. I however will NOT use LA nor HA as I still want to be a decent cleric in squads.

I've been told I do a great job as a cleric many times over, and I've made some nice friends.
My BB however does seem to be struggling. I do seem to pop a lot of Herbs (token food) as well.

Genie: Zeal
Level: 73

Stats:
Str: 49
Des: 3
Vit: 50
Magic: 50

Skills:
Earthflame lv. 1
Holy Path lv. 10
Second Wind lv. 10
Tree of Protection lv. 9
Absolute Domain lv. 4

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

The pure is going to be more efficient with their time and MP, and thus afford better equips.

No; it's redundant to stat vit when you could have used a vit tome instead.

Arguing DPS isn't silly for arcanes. Many of the melee DD's out there are far from 5.0, Assassins don't even exist as 5.0 unless they spark, and for most clearing; melee's aren't sparking on each mob and are far from 5.0 w/o spark. My veno's dps humbles most archers and is extremely effective for flying through dailies or taking down Barbs / BMs in TW.

Your veno's DPS didn't humble any archers in any BH I ever went with you on, nor any archers in rebirth beyond the obvious initial aggro veno's may get. You can stop making stuff up now.

thumbs

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Your veno's DPS didn't humble any archers in any BH I ever went with you on, nor any archers in rebirth beyond the obvious initial aggro veno's may get. You can stop making stuff up now.

Sorry you're fail, but can you cry alone instead of publicly?

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

Sorry I'm fail, but can I cry alone instead of publicly?

Apology accepted, and yes, you may do so now. b:cute

StacysMum - Dreamweaver

DPS has nothing to do with APS they are completely seperate things

Yes a cleric does have DPS just because each attack is longer than a second does not make the mean attack value per second not DPS.

Why would it be worth it? I dunno, maybe knowing one value to calculate how long you gonna take to kill something when spamming the same combos.

As far as asking where I got the values from I said they were an example. Of course if you wanna get squiffy you could then try and tell me the damage difference between a lvl 50 VIT and Mag build is the same as at lvl 105 with +12 weapon?

Doesn't really matter where the numbers come from because even if the damage difference increases are linear the moment you add a buff like +25% mag attack you imediately get a better gain on the MAG build than the VIT build.
Purely hypothetical figures:

5000 damage vs 6000 damage add 25% buff = 6250 vs 7500
damage difference goes from 1000 to 1250. 250 damage increase
10000 damage vs 12000 damage add 25% buff = 12500 vs 15000
damage difference goes from 2000 to 2500. 500 damage increase

The reducing effect of attack levels is irrelevant is it applies exactly the same to both builds as it is not reliant on any other stat

So every % increasing or decreasing effect better benefits the MAG cleric and the greater the damage difference the greater these effects have on the overall damage output.

Of course you could also try and BS that a cleric that stats 50 VIT hits anywhere near a pure MAG one. Give two R9 clerics a wand (if one doesn't have VIT build then I dunno give em 2 resets XD) and get them to buff and debuff something (don't really matter what it is) in fact make sure they are both demon. Just use MAG seal debuff plus demon weild thunder and EP. Come back and then tell me how pathetically small the difference is between their outputs.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

^ I lol'd.

Who in this forum suggests that a vit build will hit exactly on par with a full magic build? Seriously. Quotes? No, I didn't think so. Straw men unite.

The difference between base 3 vit and 25 vit with, for example, a level 100 cleric using an unrefined R8 wep is roughly 300 base magic attack. The difference between a base 25 vit and a 50 vit is roughly another 300 base magic attack.

At 9000+ magic attack as far as heals go it will start to matter little in terms of keeping a tank alive whether it's 9000 or 9700, whether it's 14500 or 15200.

Clerics are not known for kill speed in PVE, are amongst the worst classes for DPS/DPH, and as far as an individual's statting vit is concerned, provided their gear is semi-adequate, some vit won't make much noticeable difference.

Just an FYI my cleric used to have around 150 vit buffed and like 400 magic with gear, was a vit based cleric, and that was simply too much. At that point, in 3-2 and 3-3 I could notice heals significantly weaker, IH/SOR was not hitting for as much. Once I re-statted down to 50 vit I was able to easily do 3-2 and 3-3, then pure magic just as easily, once I had the HP and defence to justify it.

Everyone already knows that a pure magic will hit harder with the exact same gear than a vit build. However, in respect to viability in PVE a person with 50 vit isn't going to have any issues at all. The problems with clerics and vit become when 1) they stat excessive amounts of vit, and 2) when their weapon is too weak / they are undergeared. As a cleric plays, they will be able to tell actually playing with squads whether or not their heals, and even their damage, are sufficient.

Note that the above poster's argument is like saying that an R9 wizard +12 is more DPH than an R8 wizard +12 with equivalent gear and build. We already know that, however, if a wizard is one-shotting people with the R8, the R9 doesn't matter when telling people it's simply enough. You can quit using straw men to make your argument seem more wise when most of it is common knowledge already, but tailoring advice to people isn't black and white when not everyone has the same type of funds, time, and means, and especially in this case where a player is progressing throughout low and mid range levels and telling them about R9 and all of this other **** is entirely pointless.

StacysMum - Dreamweaver

I never said that anybody thought they hit exactly on par. You were insinuating the damage was small when in reality when they actually attack the difference is quite significant. In current PVE thats doesn't matter, kinda matters when you actually have to save your *** in pvp, and surviving won't get rid of the opposition, only killing them will achieve that. Unless you are one of those ppl that run/fly for miles just to avoid a death (understandable vs certain ppl where a death would be too humiliating to bare XD)

As far as PVE goes R9 and rich ppl just made it a joke. You could stat 250 vit and probably not notice damage output vs "poor ppl". I say poor, probably should say not fanatically persistent enough to sacrifice life for ethereal gain. Or for O.o ppl simply put not wasting your life grinding enough.

As far as statting 50 Vit goes it deos nothing at end game if you take a hit that damn near kills you then you can pretty much expect the next lot to follow to finish the job XD. In PVE 50 VIT does what at end game? Save you from a one shot? When you have insane defence and HP?

Anyway how do you buff VIT (bottom of quote in last post) I never seen a way to do that O.O

My eyes maybe decieve me, I am still recovering from last 2 nights XD one more to go

How long we gonna argue over this anyway somehow we seem to change the subect slightly and its like "whats this? FUEL!!! >:O FLAME ON CAPS LOCK RAGE"

Anyway I'll end it, I was wrong its all bs, clerics suck, stats don't matter, game over.

Decus - Dreamweaver

StacysMum - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How long we gonna argue over this anyway somehow we seem to change the subect slightly and its like "whats this? FUEL!!! >:O FLAME ON CAPS LOCK RAGE"

I didn't think we were arguing or flaming. I was rather enjoying the discussion. I certainly did not see any "caps lock rage" anywhere.

thumbs

JanusZeal is just a pathetic troll that loves influencing people to be fail. -'nuff said.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

JanusZeal is just a pathetic troll that loves influencing people to be fail. -'nuff said.

Mirror mirror, on the wall?

Aeyisha - Lost City

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Mirror mirror, on the wall?

I AM the fairest of them all.

StacysMum - Dreamweaver

Your right about the caps lock rage thing, I didn't mean it literally though was just trying to get the point across that ppl were getting a bit worked up. No offense meant.

Medication working today so in a good mood b:mischievous