Aps and me.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

I'm level 94 as you can see, rank 8, but can't use it til im 100. And am currently wondering where to go from here. I got r8 out of the way first because of the nice daggers to use til i got Barrier Thorn. But... idk what to work on first. Cheapest first? Or most improvement first? Cape since I can use it now? Or TT99 wrists/boots/neck/belt for same price but an extra -.1 int, instead of -.05 for the cape, slightly more for TT99, but more for my money. I currently have 90mil to my name and my set up looks like this.

http://pwcalc.com/923b7af865bb199d

So in your opinion, what should be knocked out first aps wise? And what else would you consider getting for shot term improvement?

And I already have the shards/orbs for the rank 8.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

First of all:
TT99 wrists and boots

Then, either TT99 Lionheart ornaments or a Lunar Cape.

After those, Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. Or the leggings.

And btw, I'd sell that Lunar ring.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Agreed, wrists first (-0.1) then boots to finish off the 2 pieces LA TT99 set bonus for another -.05. Then ornies or boots? I'd go ornies because you can refine them for pdef since you're getting the aps that you'll be tanking alot more. Ornies will give you both the -int and the defense you're looking for to tank. Then cape.

As for Rank 8 or G13, Search around and see what you want to spend your money on. You may decide you don't even want G13.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

I'm guessing your name is a joke then?

anzor2680

hi, me sin (demon) , http://pwcalc.com/578ccb5c78cdbdab end got in game 2.5 aps , please tell me, what i do for get 3.33 aps . just dont give me it. i using nirvana dagger, meybe i can`t get 5 aps

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

First of all:
TT99 wrists and boots

Then, either TT99 Lionheart ornaments or a Lunar Cape.

After those, Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. Or the leggings.

And btw, I'd sell that Lunar ring.

Ok thanks. But what should i replace the ring with?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Agreed, wrists first (-0.1) then boots to finish off the 2 pieces LA TT99 set bonus for another -.05. Then ornies or boots? I'd go ornies because you can refine them for pdef since you're getting the aps that you'll be tanking alot more. Ornies will give you both the -int and the defense you're looking for to tank. Then cape.

As for Rank 8 or G13, Search around and see what you want to spend your money on. You may decide you don't even want G13.

Isn't G13 way more dps because of the extra aps?

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm guessing your name is a joke then?

You are correct. Sarcasm, oxymoron whatever you wanna call it.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

anzor2680 wrote: »

hi, me sin (demon) , http://pwcalc.com/578ccb5c78cdbdab end got in game 2.5 aps , please tell me, what i do for get 3.33 aps . just dont give me it. i using nirvana dagger, meybe i can`t get 5 aps

Those aren't nirvana daggers.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Isn't G13 way more dps because of the extra aps?

With everything else and highly refined r8 daggers, not necessarily.
Simple comparison here. As Olbaze has stated many times before, money wise +10 r8 is comparable to +0 Barrier Thorn, so this is such.
3.33 Ocean Supreme
14,360-21,356 averages to 17,585
17,585*3.33=59,467 dps
5.0 Barrier Thorn
9,238-12,147 averages to 10,693
10,693*5.0=53,462.5
Not to mention r8 are automatically 2 socket, saving a ton on socket stones for Barrier, making them a tad more powerful. Plus, the r8 has more crit.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You are correct. Sarcasm, oxymoron whatever you wanna call it.

Lol ok :P

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

anzor2680 wrote: »

hi, me sin (demon) , http://pwcalc.com/578ccb5c78cdbdab end got in game 2.5 aps , please tell me, what i do for get 3.33 aps . just dont give me it. i using nirvana dagger, meybe i can`t get 5 aps

Those are r8 daggers. Barrier thorn will give you 5 Aps.

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Those aren't nirvana daggers.

With everything else and highly refined r8 daggers, not necessarily.
Simple comparison here. As Olbaze has stated many times before, money wise +10 r8 is comparable to +0 Barrier Thorn, so this is such.
3.33 Ocean Supreme
14,360-21,356 averages to 17,585
17,585*3.33=59,467 dps
5.0 Barrier Thorn
9,238-12,147 averages to 10,693
10,693*5.0=53,462.5
Not to mention r8 are automatically 2 socket, saving a ton on socket stones for Barrier, making them a tad more powerful. Plus, the r8 has more crit.

Lol ok :P

Ahh true. But in terms of max dps if i had the ability to +10 nirv dags it would be better long term.

And that's not his gear, he took my calc and changed it a bit.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Those are r8 daggers. Barrier thorn will give you 5 Aps.


Ahh true. But in terms of max dps if i had the ability to +10 nirv dags it would be better long term.

And that's not his gear, he took my calc and changed it a bit.

I didn't use anyone's gear, I just threw in the normal 5aps gearing.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

I didn't use anyone's gear, I just threw in the normal 5aps gearing.

no the random dude saying he used nirv daggers when it was r8. its exactly like mine but he put in TT99 stuff. He just took my calc and changed it lol.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no the random dude saying he used nirv daggers when it was r8. its exactly like mine but he put in TT99 stuff. He just took my calc and changed it lol.

Yeah I realized what you meant later. That's why I removed it from my post xD

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Just wanted to reiterate what everyone has said here XD

At your stage, this is the order of things I would get:

TT99 LA Wrists
TT99 LA Boots
TT99 HA Belt
TT99 HA Necklace
Lunar Cape
TT99 LA Legs
Shadow Ashura Greaves
Barrier Thorn - Nirvana ***
Pan Gu, Creator

*** I'm starring this because G13 Nirvana -may- not be what you would want at end game. I got my G13 vana's and +10'd/sharded them with 2 G11 Garnets because I thought they would be end-game for me. But I found out that there are much higher DPS out there that only a demon sin can get. If I found out earlier, I wouldn't have gotten my G13 vanas and would have +10'd and stuck with my R8 daggers until I got my R9.

But R9 is insanely expensive, as it costs 745 gold for the weapon, and 220 gold for the ring (if my memory serves me right). That's roughly 1.15 billion coins you'll have to farm, but it's more than worth it. Also another 36 gold for the 100k rep difference.

The other alternative is upgrading your G13 daggers to G15 (2nd tier daggers). Dark Death Thorn can have some fantastic adds that make it up to par with R9 dagger damage. But it's an extra 150 Raptures on top of your first cast, and if you have refines/sockets/gems you want to move over, there's the Chienkun stone cost too. The odds are a bit slim of having good adds for the 2nd cast daggers (good adds as in at least a -int with a GoF/SS/20 attack levels add), but possible. Each reforge costs 7 Raptures (again, if my memory serves me right XD), so it can get costly if you fail at casting.

Another troublesome thing with G15 is that if you know you want to get G15, and you don't really want to spend the coin getting Chienkuns to transfer over refines/shards, then usually those people wouldn't refine past +5 on their 1st cast daggers, or wouldn't shard anything above G9 Garnets. That can affect your speed in farming the other Raptures for the next cast.


In the end, G15 daggers will cost you at least 600m (assuming Raptures are 2.2m each, and 2 socket/Chienkun costs), and most likely more if your reforge adds aren't good. And R9 would cost you roughly double that, but only because you have to get the Ring first. The R9 Ring is a beast of a ring if you haven't really looked at its stats. The gains you get from it are immensely valuable as a ring.

I have a lot of friends/faction mates who are G13 +12 or G15 +12 with good adds, and they have R9 ring as well. So if you juggle the costs, going G15 with R9 ring would cost you at least 850-900m-ish (and possibly a lot more if recasts fail in stats), and going R9 daggers and R9 ring would cost you 1150m-ish or so. Both is assuming that Raptures are at least 2.2m each, and Gold being 1.2m each.


So in the end, it's based on preference and play style, as well as opinions from the sins who actually own it all and have experience from them.

I only found out about how powerful R9 daggers were after I already +10'd etc etc my G13 vanas. I regret that I did that, as the money I could have had from not getting those daggers could have been used to get my R9 daggers faster. Because now I have both daggers, and I never use my G13 anymore.


It's a wall of text, but XD I hope it helps you.

Also, here's a small demonstration at how powerful R9 +12 daggers are. b:avoid


Edit: Another thing to note is that it's only worth going R9 if you have the coin/dedication to save up for it. Also, it's better to go R9 daggers after you get all of your other -int gear. So tome/2nd cast nirvy legs/r8 top/lunar cape/TT99 HA orns and LA wrists/boots. With all of that, you'll have 2.86 APS unsparked, and 4 sparked. In the above video, I've 4 APS sparked.

And another thing. If you happen to get extremely lucky and get a 2nd cast G15 dagger like this, then I'd think that dagger would have more uses than R9 daggers. You'd be able to switch out your ornaments for a Cube necklace and possibly R9 belt, or Warsong belt, and still have 5 APS sparked. You'll have a lot more survivability while having a DPS much better than a G13 vana.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

Just wanted to reiterate what everyone has said here XD

At your stage, this is the order of things I would get:

TT99 LA Wrists
TT99 LA Boots
TT99 HA Belt
TT99 HA Necklace
Lunar Cape
TT99 LA Legs
Shadow Ashura Greaves
Barrier Thorn - Nirvana ***
Pan Gu, Creator

*** I'm starring this because G13 Nirvana -may- not be what you would want at end game. I got my G13 vana's and +10'd/sharded them with 2 G11 Garnets because I thought they would be end-game for me. But I found out that there are much higher DPS out there that only a demon sin can get. If I found out earlier, I wouldn't have gotten my G13 vanas and would have +10'd and stuck with my R8 daggers until I got my R9.

I'd have to argue on the last three items in the list. Because really, it depends a lot. For example, Barrier Thorn: Nirvana is the cheapest out of the three in terms of coin per -0.05. On the other hand, Shadow Ashura Greaves costs the least. However, Pan Gu, Creator gives you more DPS than Shadow Ashura Greaves if you restat the +9 strength. And there's also the question of refines: they'll make Shadow Ashura Greaves and Barrier Thorn: Nirvana jump in price, but Shadow Ashura Greaves is the only piece that'll give you a notable amount of +life.

And for a Demon sin, getting all -interval pieces might be redundant, as most people aim for 5.0 aps. Which, obviously, isn't the end-all-be-all endgame choice, but it is valid.

The other alternative is upgrading your G13 daggers to G15 (2nd tier daggers). Dark Death Thorn can have some fantastic adds that make it up to par with R9 dagger damage. But it's an extra 150 Raptures on top of your first cast, and if you have refines/sockets/gems you want to move over, there's the Chienkun stone cost too. The odds are a bit slim of having good adds for the 2nd cast daggers (good adds as in at least a -int with a GoF/SS/20 attack levels add), but possible. Each reforge costs 7 Raptures (again, if my memory serves me right XD), so it can get costly if you fail at casting

You do also have to consider that in terms of defensive ability, Dark Death Thorn and Netherworld Guidance are supreme due to the option of switching certain pieces of gear, for example your ornaments for Warsong and Cube, or your boots for Snowflake Soles. Or you could get R9 belt or boots, or Nirvana cape, boots or wrists.

Another troublesome thing with G15 is that if you know you want to get G15, and you don't really want to spend the coin getting Chienkuns to transfer over refines/shards, then usually those people wouldn't refine past +5 on their 1st cast daggers, or wouldn't shard anything above G9 Garnets. That can affect your speed in farming the other Raptures for the next cast.

Indeed. If your aim is an expensive weapon such as G15 dagger or R9 dagger, you run into the problem of whether refining your current option, which is most likely R8 or G13 Nirvana, is worth it or not.

In the end, G15 daggers will cost you at least 600m (assuming Raptures are 2.2m each, and 2 socket/Chienkun costs), and most likely more if your reforge adds aren't good. And R9 would cost you roughly double that, but only because you have to get the Ring first. The R9 Ring is a beast of a ring if you haven't really looked at its stats. The gains you get from it are immensely valuable as a ring.

R9 since is pretty much the top choice in terms of offensive and defensive mods.

Though, Skai, I think it's kinda redundant to even speak of R9 or G15 Nirvana. The OP states that he's got 90m coin and does not have any pieces of TT99 yet. Means he's still way before even considering getting something like R9 or G15 Nirvana.

Also, awesome 240k+ crits on the boss.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd have to argue on the last three items in the list. Because really, it depends a lot. For example, Barrier Thorn: Nirvana is the cheapest out of the three in terms of coin per -0.05. On the other hand, Shadow Ashura Greaves costs the least. However, Pan Gu, Creator gives you more DPS than Shadow Ashura Greaves if you restat the +9 strength. And there's also the question of refines: they'll make Shadow Ashura Greaves and Barrier Thorn: Nirvana jump in price, but Shadow Ashura Greaves is the only piece that'll give you a notable amount of +life.

That's definitely true. Personally I went Pan Gu, Creator -> Barrier Thorn - Nirvana -> +10 those daggers -> Shadow Ashura Greaves. I mainly did so because out of luck I got my Pan Gu relatively cheap (160m or so), and G13 vanas would let me hit 5 APS sparked.

And for a Demon sin, getting all -interval pieces might be redundant, as most people aim for 5.0 aps. Which, obviously, isn't the end-all-be-all endgame choice, but it is valid.

Again, this is true. Most demon sins that I don't know seem to just aim for 5aps without really looking at the DPS. Which is a little disappointing. Even then, sage sins would want 4 aps base with daggers.

You do also have to consider that in terms of defensive ability, Dark Death Thorn and Netherworld Guidance are supreme due to the option of switching certain pieces of gear, for example your ornaments for Warsong and Cube, or your boots for Snowflake Soles. Or you could get R9 belt or boots, or Nirvana cape, boots or wrists.

I forgot to mention this (which is why I edited it in at the end while you were replying), but this is exactly why I was thinking twice about R9. But based on the percentages of getting each add on the 2nd cast, 2x -int and a good unique add would be 1 in 4000 casts, which is a bit of small number; especially for unlucky people like me .

But the possibilities are very evident.

Indeed. If your aim is an expensive weapon such as G15 dagger or R9 dagger, you run into the problem of whether refining your current option, which is most likely R8 or G13 Nirvana, is worth it or not.

I ran into this dilemma when I was deciding for R9 or G15. I found out I needed about 243 Chienkun stones to transfer my 2 sockets, 2 G11 Garnets, and +10 on my G13 vana dags to the 2nd cast. If I remember right, when on sale, 5 gold gets you 10 Chienkun stones, so that was around 120 extra gold I had to put in, as well as farm 150 Raptures. And then there was the possibility of not getting a good collection of adds while recasting for a while, and the costs would add up.

Because of that, I went R9.

R9 since is pretty much the top choice in terms of offensive and defensive mods.

Though, Skai, I think it's kinda redundant to even speak of R9 or G15 Nirvana. The OP states that he's got 90m coin and does not have any pieces of TT99 yet. Means he's still way before even considering getting something like R9 or G15 Nirvana.

Also, awesome 240k+ crits on the boss.

Ah.. XD didn't catch that part. But even then, after getting the basic cheaper -int gear, he can get farm and save up for the things we've discussed on.


Another thing to cut down on costs is getting the TM69 Energetic Cape. It had -int on it, but it's only G9, and has +3-+4 adds on the stats. It'll give you the interval boost for a cheaper cost, but it's definitely not an end-game cape you'd want.

And you'd need a lvl 60-80 alt on the same account and an Account Stash activated in order to use the TM69 cape.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

If I were to go past g13 I'd get r9. G15 has terrible %s of getting decent adds. Oh and I'm going lunar pants not TT. And also I just found out about the wraithgate TM cape. Seeing as its 8mil for 8 runs im gonna level an alt to 60 and use that for a while. It's a cheap filler and gets the -int i need. Already got the account stash stone. Should only take 6-7 alt fcs to get to 60 really. And yes skai I've seen the vid haha, very nice :P

But yea once I get 4-5 Aps money shouldn't be an issue. Just getting there is where the problems arise.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

That's definitely true. Personally I went Pan Gu, Creator -> Barrier Thorn - Nirvana -> +10 those daggers -> Shadow Ashura Greaves. I mainly did so because out of luck I got my Pan Gu relatively cheap (160m or so), and G13 vanas would let me hit 5 APS sparked.

Well, in my current situation, it looks like the best option for me would be:
1. +10 R8
2. Shadow Ashura Greaves
3. Pan Gu, Creator

Simply because the +10 is far cheaper than Shadow Ashura and gives more DPS. And the Pan Gu doesn't give enough DPS over Shadow Ashura Greaves to justify the massive cost. The only dilemma I'm having now is whether the -0.05 on Shadow Ashura Greaves, which would help stabilize my spark cycle, would be worth the extra cost and lesser DPS.

Again, this is true. Most demon sins that I don't know seem to just aim for 5aps without really looking at the DPS. Which is a little disappointing. Even then, sage sins would want 4 aps base with daggers.

Funny, you said "most demon sins that I don't know". But yes, all of the clawsin topics would indicate that we do indeed have lots of people who only look at all the WCs for 4.0+ sins. Which is funny because most of those squads are looking for 4.0+ sins specifically because a sin with daggers and 4.0 aps has a vastly superior DPS to a BM. Heck, a 2.86 Sage is roughly equal to a 5.0 clawbarb, which, self-buffed, out-does a BM.

I forgot to mention this (which is why I edited it in at the end while you were replying), but this is exactly why I was thinking twice about R9. But based on the percentages of getting each add on the 2nd cast, 2x -int and a good unique add would be 1 in 4000 casts, which is a bit of small number; especially for unlucky people like me .

I'll probably end up going with +10 R8 and hanging onto that until I'm stupidly rich and then get Lunar Nirvana just because I think the TT nirvana looks silly.

Ah.. XD didn't catch that part. But even then, after getting the basic cheaper -int gear, he can get farm and save up for the things we've discussed on.

Another thing to cut down on costs is getting the TM69 Energetic Cape. It had -int on it, but it's only G9, and has +3-+4 adds on the stats. It'll give you the interval boost for a cheaper cost, but it's definitely not an end-game cape you'd want.

True. But this depends on where your "endgame" lies. For example, some people would consider sharding Perfects into their gear with +6 refines a perfectly valid endgame plan. Others will laugh at that and flaunt their +10 armors with 4x JoSD's.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But yea once I get 4-5 Aps money shouldn't be an issue. Just getting there is where the problems arise.

Doesn't really work that way, unfortunately. As you'd have Empu vouch, being known as a good player with or without 4-5 aps gets you quite far. Well, he's a 2.86 R9 Sage and he gets literally spammed for Nirvana during 2x. Really, it helps to know people. Either by being in a good faction, having been in a good faction or just having met the right people. Because really, you don't get rich by depending on WC squads.

Friend of mine was planning to get to 5 aps and then farming Nirvana for money. Took him about 3 weeks to get bored and decide to reroll to clawbarb.

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I think Olbaze and I cleared up a lot of your questions.

And also, Lunar nirvana pants/helm are better in defenses than the TT versions. But they are slightly more costly, as not many people run Lunar much. The best time to try to get Lunar mats is during x2, where some people do it for the BH then.


And Olbaze is right. High APS does not mean you're a good player. Once you understand your character and what to do at the right time, then you'll be a good player. It's all about knowing what to do with your character to avoid deaths and maximize time usage. If you get known for doing that, you'll be wanted for many things.

I get spammed during x2 because of my DPS and know-how, but XD I'm lazy and say no often.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

@ Skai's r9 damage text video: HOLY MOTHER OF @*#$%!...

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Being known as a good player isnt an issue. I'm good on my cleric. And everyone knows that. And once I establish a reputation on my sin I expect the same results.

See? I'm even arrogant like a good sin would be.