Full R9 sage sin
RADD_RATT - Harshlands
Posts: 349 Arc User
These forums are full of tons of trolls and idiots that will never back down an argument and usually its anoying. But in this case I think it will be fun 
I keep hearing froma lot of people that full R9 on a sin is a fail build...they are all mentally challenged. Yes it is true it is not the best DPS a sin can get. but what do you need DPS for when you have MOSTER DHP from stealth? Let me hear all the trolls that think this is a fail build so I can further entertain myself on your stupidity and *bro pound* to the few people that actually agree with me. We know wuzup!
I keep hearing froma lot of people that full R9 on a sin is a fail build...they are all mentally challenged. Yes it is true it is not the best DPS a sin can get. but what do you need DPS for when you have MOSTER DHP from stealth? Let me hear all the trolls that think this is a fail build so I can further entertain myself on your stupidity and *bro pound* to the few people that actually agree with me. We know wuzup! Post edited by RADD_RATT - Harshlands on
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And the forum is also full of people that don't understand how minor the DPH difference between sage and demon is.0
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Full R9 sage sin is actually my goal. b:shutupas-sas-sin
/əˈsasin/
n.
1. One who murders by surprise attack, especially one who carries out a plot to kill a prominent person.
synonyms: murderer, killer, gunman, executioner, informalhitman, hired gun.
Latin assassnus; Greek δολοφόνος0 -
It is easy to see that full rank 9 dph is gonna be better for pvp an I dont know of anyone saying any different.
I think the issue is can full rank 9 sins still solo/duo nirvana after openers like an Aps sin can, or solo the bosses in warsoul , or tt 3rd acts, or solo public quest 3. I know I can do all those as an Aps sin..
Are full rank 9 dph sins doing all that?0 -
Razorburn - Dreamweaver wrote: »It is easy to see that full rank 9 dph is gonna be better for pvp an I dont know of anyone saying any different.
I think the issue is can full rank 9 sins still solo/duo nirvana after openers like an Aps sin can, or solo the bosses in warsoul , or tt 3rd acts, or solo public quest 3. I know I can do all those as an Aps sin..
Are full rank 9 dph sins doing all that?
if only you could somehow have two sets of gear.. owaitYoutube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
[SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]0 -
Full R9 sin here.
Yeah I've been declared crazy for being sage full r9. But thats just my TW/PvP gear.
Its really the best tank/dph gear there is for a sin.
Now people accept the power of the dagger...Sins are Scissors, Psychics are Rocks, and Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock ...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE.0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »And the forum is also full of people that don't understand how minor the DPH difference between sage and demon is.
While small at first thought the number add up very fast towards Sage hitting harder.
Sage Chill - Sage Subsea - Sage PowerDash - Sage Earthen rift. All have small increases in damage (Well, Subsea is actually pretty extreme but yeah) but they add up to a potentially huge amount of damage that Demon could simply not hit with the same combo.
If you mean off single skills alone however, yes the DPH differences are minor across the board.0 -
Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »****
Idk why you keep on posting **** on things you don't understand.
Full R9 sage:
DPH = (10,801+12,810)/2*2.57= 30,340.135
Full R9 demon:
DPH = (10,480+12,428)/2*2.52= 28,864.08
(30,340.135-28,864.08)/28,864.08=0.05, that's 5% difference when you compare each hit.
Now let's take crits into account in 10 hits from each cult, first 10 without using Dash, next 10 with Dash.
Sage w/o Dash, and assume you didn't learn sage Wolf for the sake of spike in PvP. 6 normal hits, 4 crits:
(30,340.135*6)+(30,340.135*2.3*4)=461,170.052
Demon w/o Dash, demon Wolf, really 4.2 crits in the long run:
(28,864.08*5.8)+(28,864.08*2.4*4.2)=458,361.59
(461,170.052-458,361.59)/458,361.59=0.006 or 0.6% gain in over 10 hits.
Sage w/ Dash:
(30,340.135)+(30,340.135*2.3*9)= 658,380.929
Demon w/ Dash:
(28,864.08*1.8)+(28,864.08*2.4*8.2)=620,000.438
(658,380.929-620,000.438)/620,000.438=0.06 or 6% gain in over 10 hits.
Granted we are only comparing base damage. But each skill you use = base damage + skill add on + cult add on. Since skill add on's are the same for lvl 11, you really only need to compare base damage + cult add on. For the most skills you'll use on 1v1, such as HH, RDS or Rib, the cult add on's don't offer different damages so your damage difference will be from base damage.
As we can see from above, you are looking at 5-6% gain on DPH for sage vs longer stuns from demon. You can argue that the stronger AoEs sage have makes sage more fitted for TW. But in open map PvP, no one in their right mind will Subsea on someone. Open map PvP is all about stuns.
In the end you are trading off 5-6% gain on DPH with 20% and 40% gain on the 2 stuns you have (tele stun actually stuns for 5 seconds at lvl 10). If you actually get sage Wolf, your edge on spike will be even smaller. There's your completely DPH comparison on the 2 cults.0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »Idk why you keep on posting **** on things you don't understand.
Full R9 sage:
DPH = (10,801+12,810)/2*2.57= 30,340.135
Full R9 demon:
DPH = (10,480+12,428)/2*2.52= 28,864.08
(30,340.135-28,864.08)/28,864.08=0.05, that's 5% difference when you compare each hit.
Now let's take crits into account in 10 hits from each cult, first 10 without using Dash, next 10 with Dash.
Sage w/o Dash, and assume you didn't learn sage Wolf for the sake of spike in PvP. 6 normal hits, 4 crits:
(30,340.135*6)+(30,340.135*2.3*4)=461,170.052
Demon w/o Dash, demon Wolf, really 4.2 crits in the long run:
(28,864.08*5.8)+(28,864.08*2.4*4.2)=458,361.59
(461,170.052-458,361.59)/458,361.59=0.006 or 0.6% gain in over 10 hits.
Sage w/ Dash:
(30,340.135)+(30,340.135*2.3*9)= 658,380.929
Demon w/ Dash:
(28,864.08*1.8)+(28,864.08*2.4*8.2)=620,000.438
(658,380.929-620,000.438)/620,000.438=0.06 or 6% gain in over 10 hits.
Granted we are only comparing base damage. But each skill you use = base damage + skill add on + cult add on. Since skill add on's are the same for lvl 11, you really only need to compare base damage + cult add on. For the most skills you'll use on 1v1, such as HH, RDS or Rib, the cult add on's don't offer different damages so your damage difference will be from base damage.
As we can see from above, you are looking at 5-6% gain on DPH for sage vs longer stuns from demon. You can argue that the stronger AoEs sage have makes sage more fitted for TW. But in open map PvP, no one in their right mind will Subsea on someone. Open map PvP is all about stuns.
In the end you are trading off 5-6% gain on DPH with 20% and 40% gain on the 2 stuns you have (tele stun actually stuns for 5 seconds at lvl 10). If you actually get sage Wolf, your edge on spike will be even smaller. There's your completely DPH comparison on the 2 cults.
You know that lines up with what I said pretty much perfectly right? Ive never been one to say that Sage > Demon or vice versa, I simply prefer Sage for a few particular skills I like. And your calculation shows exactly what I mean, Sage is more powerful on average per hit. 5-6% is all the difference between ticking some AA's charm and oneshotting them.
Stuns dont factor here, if they do then Maze Steps and Tidal Protection and other skills come into effect, but thats got jack to do with simple DPH.
Thanks for the "Dont know what your talking about" comment, its the exact reason I dont bother with the sin forum much. The advice sucks and so do the players. (For the most part. I wuv some of you b:kiss and that Sin guide is fairly useful)0 -
Infernia - Harshlands wrote: »You know that lines up with what I said pretty much perfectly right? Ive never been one to say that Sage > Demon or vice versa, I simply prefer Sage for a few particular skills I like. And your calculation shows exactly what I mean, Sage is more powerful on average per hit. 5-6% is all the difference between ticking some AA's charm and oneshotting them.
Stuns dont factor here, if they do then Maze Steps and Tidal Protection and other skills come into effect, but thats got jack to do with simple DPH.
Thanks for the "Dont know what your talking about" comment, its the exact reason I dont bother with the sin forum much. The advice sucks and so do the players. (For the most part. I wuv some of you b:kiss and that Sin guide is fairly useful)
No, whether you zerk/crit or not is the difference between a tick and one shot. Most people think sage have like a huge advantage in DPH, so every time they think DPH they think you can only do a DPH build as sage. When you factor in Wolf Emblem, the DPH for both cult are about the same.0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »No, whether you zerk/crit or not is the difference between a tick and one shot. Most people think sage have like a huge advantage in DPH, so every time they think DPH they think you can only do a DPH build as sage. When you factor in Wolf Emblem, the DPH for both cult are about the same.
I think they factor in more then just the DPH. You consider you only kill someone when it suits you (with wolf emblem), you factor out tidal protection/focussed mind/deaden nerves (which is better for sage only when charmed), you factor out that you heal 50% more with bp (which with r9 damage will be noticable against players) against an evasion buff that eats tons of mp, you factor out that active pk'ers have genies so some consider stuns not as usefull as in the past anymore (see bm forums and QQ about genie destroying stunlock), you factor out that considering 1 armor set sage would be more viable for the pve you will do (ofc, you can just have 2 armor sets or consider s/o doesn't do anything pve.), you consider sage chills adventage minimal but forget demon chills is just lvl10 with a red box around it in this context, you also forget that at least half of the demon sins will never learn a lvl11 skill while all sage sins will.
So all togather, most will tend to think DPH only build = sage. If you like demon better, sure why not. Just don't act like they are all idiots... cause calculating the damage you do in pk over 10 sec is kinda silly.0 -
Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »I think they factor in more then just the DPH. You consider you only kill someone when it suits you (with wolf emblem), you factor out tidal protection/focussed mind/deaden nerves (which is better for sage only when charmed), you factor out that you heal 50% more with bp (which with r9 damage will be noticable against players) against an evasion buff that eats tons of mp, you factor out that active pk'ers have genies so some consider stuns not as usefull as in the past anymore (see bm forums and QQ about genie destroying stunlock), you factor out that considering 1 armor set sage would be more viable for the pve you will do (ofc, you can just have 2 armor sets or consider s/o doesn't do anything pve.), you consider sage chills adventage minimal but forget demon chills is just lvl10 with a red box around it in this context, you also forget that at least half of the demon sins will never learn a lvl11 skill while all sage sins will.
So all togather, most will tend to think DPH only build = sage. If you like demon better, sure why not. Just don't act like they are all idiots... cause calculating the damage you do in pk over 10 sec is kinda silly.
That's cool if you like the tidal protection/focussed mind/deaden nerves, but they have nothing to do with DPH, so not part of the argument. Counting heal in PvP is just silly. When you take genies into account, having longer stuns actually means if you stun them out of stealth and they AD, AD will be up before stun is. Why does it matter if other demon Sins won't learn lvl 11 skills? If you are building a DPH Sin you'd learn the skill no matter what cult you are.
Like I've shown, DPH of both cult are similar. Idiot or not for believing DPH = sage only is your call. I did comparison over 10 attacks, not 10 seconds, to show that it averages out. When you don't crit, sage will hit harder and when you crit, demon will hit harder.0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »That's cool if you like the tidal protection/focussed mind/deaden nerves, but they have nothing to do with DPH, so not part of the argument.
b:laugh But YOU are the one who reduces all to DPH. The OP never said that, but you make it that he's considering the dph of sage higher then of demon. And the worst part is you refuse to take into account anything else now cause of your own assumptions. Way to go to narrowing your own mind. Go calculate some more, cause you don't seem to understand you can make figures say whatever you want by taking the right assumptions at the start. It will make you feel better to see a useless row of figures that confirm what you want to see b:chuckle0 -
RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »These forums are full of tons of trolls and idiots that will never back down an argument and usually its anoying. But in this case I think it will be fun I keep hearing froma lot of people that full R9 on a sin is a fail build...they are all mentally challenged. Yes it is true it is not the best DPS a sin can get. but what do you need DPS for when you have MOSTER DHP from stealth? Let me hear all the trolls that think this is a fail build so I can further entertain myself on your stupidity and *bro pound* to the few people that actually agree with me. We know wuzup!
Now I don't usually like to agree with Okeano because he's kind of a **** on forums, but the OP was pretty specific about saying that sage R9 has the "MOSTER DHP" from stealth. Going out on a limb and assuming he meant "Highest DPH", in which case he's incorrect
I am jelly of sage buffs tho b:shutup
"*bro pound*" b:laugh0 -
_Leif - Lost City wrote: »Now I don't usually like to agree with Okeano because he's kind of a **** on forums, but the OP was pretty specific about saying that sage R9 has the "MOSTER DHP" from stealth. Going out on a limb and assuming he meant "Highest DPH", in which case he's incorrect
I am jelly of sage buffs tho b:shutup
"*bro pound*" b:laugh
Actually, to me it seems more about full rank9 then culti.RADD_RATT - Harshlands wrote: »These forums are full of tons of trolls and idiots that will never back down an argument and usually its anoying. But in this case I think it will be funI keep hearing froma lot of people that full R9 on a sin is a fail build...they are all mentally challenged. Yes it is true it is not the best DPS a sin can get. but what do you need DPS for when you have MOSTER DHP from stealth? Let me hear all the trolls that think this is a fail build so I can further entertain myself on your stupidity and *bro pound* to the few people that actually agree with me. We know wuzup!
I don't see any reference to sage full r9 being better/higher dph/more powerfull then demon same build.
From what I read it's about the build : full rank9 armor + weap (and thus low aps, monster dph). I'm not sure why "sage" is specified in title. Maybe because the OP is sage, maybe just as a taunt cause most say aps & demon is the way to go. However in the post, to me it seems to be about a DPH build for pk vs a (regular) -int based armor build.
Whenever Okeano sees "dph" he goes on his calculation rampage about the dph between sage and demon. When I read the post, I see no reason for his post that follows just after. He acts like ppl are idiots to prefer sage for a dph build. I just pointed out that, assuming his calculations make sense, there are other reasons to choose sage for a DPH build.0 -
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I'm just trying to break up a myth of sage having much better DPH than demon. Ever since sage/demon cult came out, every time people think DPH build, they think sage. Just because demon out DPS sage, they naturally assume sage has better DPH by looking at the 5 attack levels from CoD and the "75%" VS "90%" on mastery without actually doing the math.Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »Actually, to me it seems more about full rank9 then culti.
I don't see any reference to sage full r9 being better/higher dph/more powerfull then demon same build.
From what I read it's about the build : full rank9 armor + weap (and thus low aps, monster dph). I'm not sure why "sage" is specified in title. Maybe because the OP is sage, maybe just as a taunt cause most say aps & demon is the way to go. However in the post, to me it seems to be about a DPH build for pk vs a (regular) -int based armor build.
Whenever Okeano sees "dph" he goes on his calculation rampage about the dph between sage and demon. When I read the post, I see no reason for his post that follows just after. He acts like ppl are idiots to prefer sage for a dph build. I just pointed out that, assuming his calculations make sense, there are other reasons to choose sage for a DPH build.
Wrong cape and wrong shards.
Touche. But if you look at older posts of mine, I'm actually quite nice. But it seems people just get dumber and dumber, and it's hard to stay nice while facepalming._Leif - Lost City wrote: »Now I don't usually like to agree with Okeano because he's kind of a **** on forums0 -
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this is the best http://pwcalc.com/03224497bc9056430
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OMG
such a ****..
please delete this char....
omg....
PLEASE DELETE YOUR ACC. !!!!!!0 -
Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »I'm just trying to break up a myth of sage having much better DPH than demon. Ever since sage/demon cult came out, every time people think DPH build, they think sage. Just because demon out DPS sage, they naturally assume sage has better DPH by looking at the 5 attack levels from CoD and the "75%" VS "90%" on mastery without actually doing the math.
I just think it's kinda off-topic, since to me this is a dph vs -int and not a sage dph vs demon dph.
Others may do not enough math, but you seem to do to much. On a global picture (so not just the R9 pk) you should also reason the other way around. You look at dph related to each culti under some circonstances, but you should also look at the culti related to the dph build. Example : Demon spark with a dph build just has the attack increase because the 25% att speed is a small benefit on very low aps with chill when spamming skills mostly, Sage spark has the attack increase with a 25% damage reduc. There are many things that favor sage for a pure dph build if you compare this way.
Your calculations are for that reason completely useles to me, because they just take into account the damage under specific predetermined circonstances. I'm not saying one is better for a dph build then the other. Just saying ppl may not be as stupid as you assume they are, and that you may consider reasoning a bit more without figures before calling others idiots.
To get back to topic : any class r9 gear will do great in pk, why even worry about it.0 -
Once again "I'm just trying to break up a myth of sage having much better DPH than demon". Each cult have its pros and cons such as dmg reduction on spark. But many Sins believe sage has a vast advantage on spike damage than demon.0
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Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »Once again "I'm just trying to break up a myth of sage having much better DPH than demon". Each cult have its pros and cons such as dmg reduction on spark. But many Sins believe sage has a vast advantage on spike damage than demon.
On average the dph difference is around 2-3% favoring sage. But the demon sparked speed boost adds 50% if going from 3.33 up to 5 aps, or 40% if going from 2.86 to 4 aps. Overall damage output favors demon (before genies get involved. Sage can wind shield but demon can frenzy and yada yada yada...).
The real benefit of going sage is the 3% bloodpaint heal combined zerk/sac strike/GoF weapons. This is where spike dmg becomes pretty fricken sexy. Consider a 35% crit rate with a 30% GoF proc rate. More than 1/3 of your attacks will crit, almost 1/3 will zerk, and about 1 out of every 9 attacks will crit zerk. Both can get these bonuses but the sage sin will be much safer having a paint heal to cover the zerk hp loss as well as dmg reduction to cover the mob attack.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »On average the dph difference is around 2-3% favoring sage. But the demon sparked speed boost adds 50% if going from 3.33 up to 5 aps, or 40% if going from 2.86 to 4 aps. Overall damage output favors demon (before genies get involved. Sage can wind shield but demon can frenzy and yada yada yada...).
The real benefit of going sage is the 3% bloodpaint heal combined zerk/sac strike/GoF weapons. This is where spike dmg becomes pretty fricken sexy. Consider a 35% crit rate with a 30% GoF proc rate. More than 1/3 of your attacks will crit, almost 1/3 will zerk, and about 1 out of every 9 attacks will crit zerk. Both can get these bonuses but the sage sin will be much safer having a paint heal to cover the zerk hp loss as well as dmg reduction to cover the mob attack.
Are you just figuring Dagger Devotion into your postulation? Wolf Emblem for Sage gives 20% more dmg on all crits. You could argue intermittent use of Demon Wolf Emblem but in practicality, - how many spam it, and does it not interrupt melee atks for a short while during battle?
You're then overlooking AoE. Subsea Strike, Earthen Rift, and Chill of the Deep which all add and multiply on that slightly higher base dmg. Sage spark also grants excellent defense from spark giving us the survival we need for great aoe.
"Sage can wind shield but demon can frenzy and yada yada yada... "
-Agree, and I try to look at what people are actually using. I've never seen Windshield or Demon Wolf Emblem getting spammed. We also don't see Demon sparks throughout all our BHs, C2Ds, etc. We also see a lot of wasted sparks on bad timings (interrupts).
If all people want is a Nirvana rat, then demon is probably the ticket. I think sage is a little more robust for other jobs.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »On average the dph difference is around 2-3% favoring sage. But the demon sparked speed boost adds 50% if going from 3.33 up to 5 aps, or 40% if going from 2.86 to 4 aps. Overall damage output favors demon (before genies get involved. Sage can wind shield but demon can frenzy and yada yada yada...).
b:chuckle I think you forgot to look at the first post.0 -
Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »b:chuckle I think you forgot to look at the first post.
The first post is a dude talking out of his *** with no point whatsover other then "bring it trolls." Its a troll urging trolls as he tells you how awesome the dph is on a 1.43 aps build.
Check out post #8 where Okeano uses mathematics and considers most factors to debunk the myth that sage dph is much different from demon dph. I know you are a smart player Empu, and I know you heavily favor both safety and dph to the apss craze, but if sin safety is partially based around having a huge dps for huge heal returns. I also included the positives of sage.
Tweakz: I was arguing dph when applied to dps. I don't plan on aoeing any bosses to death and as a sin, my aoe dmg isnt important. Yes I was considering Sage Dagger Devotion in my calculations. The difference between 75% and 90% of base weapon attack is realisticly only about 4% on endgame weapons, less on lower grade weapons. Subtract the 2% crit demon gets from that. As for Wolf Emblem I didn't include it in my calculations because its unpredictable, Sage is obviously better overall assuming you attack nonstop for 30 minutes. But, 40% for 30 seconds is preferred by some because most bosses don't last 30 seconds anyways, even Vana bosses, it matches up with your 15 second sparks, can be active half the time, and is literally an instant skill if you cast it as you come out of 3 second spark invincibility before you start auto attack. So demon gives you a bigger boost when you actually are attacking. Not saying one is better than the other, just saying I didn't calculate it in because its negligable.
If you are going to troll me, try presenting mathematics facts next time pls, otherwise you'll just look like a Yulk.Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
@ Sakubatou : I never saw this as a sage dph vs demon dph, and still don't get why it even got brought up... Okeano brought that up in his crusade against a myth just so he could do his math on dph. It serves no purpose imo.
And well, the OP talks about a dph build with full r9 (which has low aps) specificly in pk... That is a very very specific situation. I have never seen anyone argue r9 being the best for pk. We all know full r9 will pretty much 1hit anyone besides a few bms and barbs, no mather which class or culti.
PS : If you want to hear a few reasons why Okeano's math is highly insufficient to decide on culti for a pure dph build, pm me ingame. Even on that topic I consider that post as useles figures without much purpose.0 -
Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »@ Sakubatou : I never saw this as a sage dph vs demon dph, and still don't get why it even got brought up... Okeano brought that up in his crusade against a myth just so he could do his math on dph. It serves no purpose imo.
And well, the OP talks about a dph build with full r9 (which has low aps) specificly in pk... That is a very very specific situation. I have never seen anyone argue r9 being the best for pk. We all know full r9 will pretty much 1hit anyone besides a few bms and barbs, no mather which class or culti.
PS : If you want to hear a few reasons why Okeano's math is highly insufficient to decide on culti for a pure dph build, pm me ingame. Even on that topic I consider that post as useles figures without much purpose.
I realised this was a thread that got derailed by the old dps vs dph arguments. I will admit, if we are picking one skill, one hit, sage would win. I assumed we were talking dph as it relates to dps which is what I was arguing and demon clearly takes the advantage there. Just tired of nubcakes telling me how "godly" sage dagger devotion is because "you do 15% more dmg than a demon" and no one ever explaining to them that its base damage so its more like 3% more dmg per attack from sage mastery and demon still gets a 2% crit increase making masteries almost equal (almost).Seven 100+ characters leveled the hard way. Free to play. Mystic, Psychic, and Wizard left to level. b:victory0 -
Lol ^ noob who needs to gtfo. That crit arrow glitch has LOOOOOONG been confirmed false.kortizzzzzzzzzzz wrote: »this is the best http://pwcalc.com/03224497bc905643Demon_Troll: "takes on the appearance of an innocent archer but turns into a mindless idiot once you hear him speak"
~Spazz~0
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