DEMON or SAGE? reasons......

CraistiniRO - Raging Tide

Hi i am a lvl 80 archer and i am thinking for when i will be 89 on what way should i go...

Heartstone - Dreamweaver

its not like there already is 9879^99 threads about this already. and defnitely not any on the frontpage of archer forum.

lizrau

Demon.


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RADD_RATT - Harshlands

There's this great website called ecatomb, it will tell you the skills of demon and sage and you can decide for yourself. If you just trust everything you hear on these forums you;re not on the right path.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

There have been a lot of threads on this but to be fair I don't think any of them has been good lol.

Irdis - Sanctuary

hmm my suggestion would be...

play your archer char to see what you can potentially do with it,
figure out what sort of playstyle you have or can/want to follow,
look up the skill/gear database and decide what would work best for your playstyle,
check out guides, ignoring potential bias they might have,
bug other sage/demon archers you meet in game who you think are good at doing what you d like to be able to do,

and then poof, you should be able to make a decision b:victory

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

Demon, because 5.0 is the only thing that matter in the game.

Oh and demon because it's cheaper for 5.0.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

Definitely go whichever suits your playstyle more.

and definitely check out ecatomb. a great site for skill comparisons and one of the better pwi sites.

Most go demon, I personally went sage. Its all a matter of preference and playstyle.

AricLecious - Dreamweaver

I want to go sage but everybody is telling me not to

deeplyflawed

I think that Demons are slower though :x

angellicdeity

Just ask yourself:


1. Am I going to TW?
2. Am I going to PK?
3. Am I just going to farm mats?



If you answered (2) or (3) and yes and (1) as no, then either cultivation will suit you.



If you answered (1) as yes, then go demon. There really isn't a whole lot that is different between sage and demon archers. Demons just get better tools for PK, while sage just gets damage improvements.

But if your absolutely serious about TW, then sage is useless in comparison with Demon. The one defining trait that is different between the two is Mo Zun's Taunt (Chi stealing) vs Master Li's Technique (Chi gaining).

In TW its more useful to be able to steal chi as an archer than gain it. Casting Mo Zun's Taunt on Catapult Barbarians makes them much easier to kill. You only need 4 demon cultivated characters to ensure they cant turtle on you.

The less time your team spends killing catapult barbarians the more people can be pushing the offensive line. A turtled barbarian wastes too much time of your Mages and Psychics that would be better spent dropping other DD's.


It doesn't stop with Barbarians either. If you're woefully undergeared or dont have the damage to kill some insanely well-geared mages, the best thing you can do is Mo-Zun taunt them to prevent them from building enough chi for their killer ulti's.

Since TW is incredibly chaotic and laggy you can actually get away doing it.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

I do not think you are being fair angellic.

Personally, I was in a TW last night, in a cata squad, for 34 minutes, and did not die. Now part of that was luck (miss, miss), part of that was my build, part of that was my gear (even my +4 sky demon's pearl helped!), and part of that was my squad, but i think part was also my sage cultivation and skills.

angellicdeity wrote: »

But if your absolutely serious about TW, then sage is useless in comparison with Demon. The one defining trait that is different between the two is Mo Zun's Taunt (Chi stealing) vs Master Li's Technique (Chi gaining).

Most of my battles were over before my target was within taunt range. And, while I am sure that taunt does have use, I think that sage gets extra metal attacks in the 10 second charm window, and that we get extra fire damage on our attacks can also help. I am sure that taunt can be useful, but its not the only way to deal with cata barbs (not that I was doing that last night).

Meanwhile, using four archers to replace one or two venos sounds like perhaps not the best allocation of resources.

angellicdeity

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I do not think you are being fair angellic.

Personally, I was in a TW last night, in a cata squad, for 34 minutes, and did not die. Now part of that was luck (miss, miss), part of that was my build, part of that was my gear (even my +4 sky demon's pearl helped!), and part of that was my squad, but i think part was also my sage cultivation and skills.



Most of my battles were over before my target was within taunt range. And, while I am sure that taunt does have use, I think that sage gets extra metal attacks in the 10 second charm window, and that we get extra fire damage on our attacks can also help. I am sure that taunt can be useful, but its not the only way to deal with cata barbs (not that I was doing that last night).

Meanwhile, using four archers to replace one or two venos sounds like perhaps not the best allocation of resources.

1) No matter how many metal attacks you have, a turtled barb will make them all useless if you can only deal 3-digit damage a shot.

2) You dont use it on most DD characters, so your point is kind of useless to bring to the argument. The ones who will be within range are going to be Catabarbs as they're the only class that can tank TW damage.

3) Veno's purge doesn't work on turtle last I checked.


Lastly you were in a Cata squad. Most Cata squads arent the DD-Attack squads that take the brunt of the damage and deal the brunt of the damage. You get to sit back and pick off targets while the other DD's are deeply mixed up with enemies.

The DD squads usually push on the left or right side of lanes. This gives DD squads a chance to use Mo-Zun's taunt when sweeping across a lane. All targets in the center are well in range of Mo-Zuns taunt.

Vindis - Dreamweaver

AricLecious - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I want to go sage but everybody is telling me not to

if you want me to tell you my reasons for going sage pm me sometime since were on the same server. I too was told to go demon.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Sure, angelic, and for example when I get hit hard enough, I die quickly.

But I think that you were talking about preventing turtle, no? And, yes, once they have gone turtle they can be hard to deal with (though even that is not impossible if they and their team do not know how to shield their vulnerabilities).

(And, yes, I died a number of times against the same opponents when I was defending, instead of being cata squad. Then again, in my experience, cata squads can get hit really hard. And its not like they were not trying to do exactly that. (For example, there was a period of several seconds when I had maybe 200 health.))

But, anyways, my point was that sage archers do have roles to play in TW, and that you were being unfair when you claimed the opposite. That does not mean that I want any sane sage archer attempting to emulate me -- I just happen to enjoy finding factual bits of trivia to contradict points which I feel were ill-made.

Meanwhile, for taunt -- yes, I will agree with you that taunt can be useful. Of course, it can also be countered if the cata squad knows what they are doing -- most draining techniques are useful because they are a surprise, not because they are unbeatable. Meanwhile, sage archers (especially if you can get four of them on one barb) can also prevent a cata barb from turtleing with a different set of constraints on how they accomplish this end and a different set of counters.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

Sage for the pretty 3rd fairy.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Go sage hit 100 get 4th map go demon, decide you like the sage fairy better swap back, realize how awesome QS is go demon, get drunk one night in a cold lonely house and think "hey metal skills are great!" go sage, sober up go demon, miss the damage reduction of spark for pve go sage again, realize that BB overwires it go demon. A few k mirages later say **** it quit the game and go to a better mmo.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Demon 3rd Fairy looks awesome. Sage 3rd Fairy is like some sort of insect.

Niteshadows - Harshlands

it's ur choice to make not ours. we can only supply the suggestions and facts about each path. im going demon on my archer for a myriad of reasons not because everyone else is doing it, but more of my own playing style.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon 3rd Fairy looks awesome. Sage 3rd Fairy is like some sort of insect.

I agree with you about your demon 3rd fairy, but I think the sage 3rd fairy looks like a cross between a court jester (something along the lines of tt99 gear) and a squash or some other gourd.

*sighs*

Devoted - Lost City

Thank god we split this up over tens of threads because each one brings something new to the table and is not just a rehash of the same subjective arguments that have already been presented.

I have yet to read a single thread that has provided a new perspective one could use to base their decision of cultivation. Don't get me wrong, the arguments aren't bad it's just they aren't anything different from what has been said over and over. If anything every time a new thread is created the same stuff gets spewed out but with a small deviation so we ultimately have people presenting arguments that aren't even their own but aren't true to the source they are taking them from.

Sorry for the negative attitude, some of you still provide good discussion but I think you guys are getting led on to debate points from misinformed archers.

TigerLily - Lost City

Its pretty amusing when people say pick culti based on your "playstyle".

I mean what playstyle do you have if you benefit from going Sage? I never meet a single player where choosing Sage makes their character better or more suitable for their in-game needs. Being 5.0 with 25% reduction is the lamest reason to go Sage ever, so im not even gonna count that.

Archer is not a very versatile class either, or its not much room left for an individual do try special archer builds or moves in PvP without being just total fail. Pretty much all archers endgame have the same build and gaming style for that reason. Only difference is some being better gamers in general and can time skills, genie, pots and kite properly. If you meet an archer with a unique gaming style its usually a complete noob or some mega cash shopper with R9+12 gear that can afford to tank Sins and BMs in mele range while spamming Vicious Arrow and Deadly Shoot.

For the rest of us, there is really only 1 playing style for archers that works and for that reason its not suitable being Sage unless you think working x2 harder to kill equally geared players is a fun challenge.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

omg, you have given us so many targets!

So, ok, you two have managed to both be insulting without conveying much information -- and, yes "playstyle" does not really say anything useful also.

Still... ok, I will waste an arrow on you... a weak one... for example, sage venomous arrow can be one of the best sklls ever to use on an assassin -- not because it will kill them (unless they are stupid) but because it will force them to equip mana charms (or risk not having enough mana for shadow escape, in the chaos of battle -- any time when things have gone beyond trivial and a sage archer was present with that silly venomous arrow) which will drive up their daily costs. And, in the long run, (since everyone is immortal in this game) driving up their costs is the best thing you can do to them.

And, if every serious assassin had to equip mana charms? That, I think, would please the PWE gods.

Lu$t - Sanctuary

Well i'll just say this, the few sages that come to mind in tw make sure to stay at their maxed 40ish meters from the fray and pick people off. One of them have probably average refines and the other has pretty good gear. he oneshots a fair bit too lol not a reason to pick sage but they do have their perks.

i personally prefer demon for burst damage in pvp (demon stun arrow + demon qs) and demon sparking. you arent gonna tank in tw unless youre like full +12 r9 JosD so my thoughts as playing archer is "ok kill as many as i can before i die". i believe demon spark is superior in that aspect. if im allowed (lol xD) to go on a rampage in tw with demon spark on (and im lucky) i can take out an entire squads worth or more just tabbing. and who doesnt like getting killed by wingspan >:D (dont even ask why i end up surrounded so fast o.o;). i cant think of any thing a sage could do better then a demon really lol

Quilue - Sanctuary

The one thing Sages could do with +range bow weapons was outrange towers...maybe they can still do that wielding R8/R9 by taking a step back during Barrage's channel. Don't know if that works.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Still... ok, I will waste an arrow on you... a weak one... for example, sage venomous arrow can be one of the best sklls ever to use on an assassin -- not because it will kill them (unless they are stupid) but because it will force them to equip mana charms (or risk not having enough mana for shadow escape, in the chaos of battle -- any time when things have gone beyond trivial and a sage archer was present with that silly venomous arrow) which will drive up their daily cost

I loled @ Mana burn. New Meta on this game?~!

Why fleuri not on Pvp rankings and always wants to prove sage superior b:lipcurl
http://pwi.perfectworld.com/ranking?ranking=pvp&class=Archer&server=Sanctuary
Less than 1k kills

Devoted - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

omg, you have given us so many targets!

So, ok, you two have managed to both be insulting without conveying much information -- and, yes "playstyle" does not really say anything useful also.

For the past six months, I couldn't even read through a cultivation thread. With the new trend, nothing is real. Everything is far away. Everything is a copy of a copy of a copy.

Okeano - Harshlands

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Still... ok, I will waste an arrow on you... a weak one... for example, sage venomous arrow can be one of the best sklls ever to use on an assassin -- not because it will kill them (unless they are stupid) but because it will force them to equip mana charms (or risk not having enough mana for shadow escape, in the chaos of battle -- any time when things have gone beyond trivial and a sage archer was present with that silly venomous arrow) which will drive up their daily costs. And, in the long run, (since everyone is immortal in this game) driving up their costs is the best thing you can do to them.

LOLOLOLOLOL *takes a breath* LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

I loled @ Mana burn. New Meta on this game?~!

Why fleuri not on Pvp rankings and always wants to prove sage superior b:lipcurl
http://pwi.perfectworld.com/ranking?ranking=pvp&class=Archer&server=Sanctuary
Less than 1k kills

Since you asked so nicely, perhaps I should explain: I do have over 1k kills. However, I am not proud of them. But the real problems, I think, are (censored) and you are counting the wrong thing.

That said, I am perma blue named, and I rarely duel (and often enough I will try and bring the rare duel that I get into to a stalemate). My first character was on Lost City (because it had the smallest population when I started), and I switched to Sanctuary when I reached level 10 because I heard about PvE servers in world chat. I might drop my blue name status for an experiment, but I play PWI mostly so I can relax and grind, and not so I can pick on helpless players.

Meanwhile, I do not think sage is superior -- you are, I think picking up on my dislike of the bogus arguments people raise when discussing cultivation issues. But I think both cultivation choices are viable, and good for different things.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Since you asked so nicely, perhaps I should explain: I do have over 1k kills.
That said, I am perma blue named, and I rarely duel (and often enough I will try and bring the rare duel that I get into to a stalemate). My first character was on Lost City (because it had the smallest population when I started), and I switched to Sanctuary when I reached level 10 because I heard about PvE servers in world chat. I might drop my blue name status for an experiment, but I play PWI mostly so I can relax and grind, and not so I can pick on helpless players.

If you had over 1k Kills in "Open pvp" It would show on ranks O_o..

If your "Perma Blue name" that means you rarely get any real ganks or have casual fights againts random people/class.

I never tried "PVE" server in this game, but if you refer as "duel" as the "action" that you can actually have. That sir is probably a far representation of a REAL PVP 1V1.

Not being blue for me isnt about pick on helpless players, but for Mass pvp and constant 2v1? 3v1? 4v2? that often happen (Either way, cause when you win being the one with less numbers.. Its better.)


b:surrender Not trying to be a jerk, but i just feel you lack of real experience in pvp for a real statement.

Its like asking a student of medicine to find the cure of X disease. (Like the New meta.- Spam Poison arrow so they have to use mp charm? lol)

b:avoid

Blackula__ - Archosaur

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Went Sage

I am not a major cash shopper but I grind for coin and spend alittle here and there, I have regretted not having demon spark for PvE. This may sound silly but for me its what I do alot of the time since my server is PvE. I only PvP in TW and I have found that very enjoyable on my archer....That being said its normally standing at the max distance trying to hide from all those who can 1 or 2 shot me. I Tab kill Tab kill and it does pretty well. I try to target squishy avoiding barbs and bm as they are pin cushions.

I only have 200 PvP kills but I think it has reset a few times and I am currently not even playing archer and thus no TW for months. The reason I wish I had demon spark is to get easy APS since most archers go fist/claw. That is what I always hated about the "what is your play style question...." My play still was to use my bow but it turns out thats fail in PvE as an archer. TW everyone loves an archer but unless your on a PvP server or they make TW more often 2 days a week is not much of a reason to play a toon. So I might sound disgruntled but the one skill that I thought was so cool sage winged blessing has never been seen in AH by me. You can spend 5mil in tokens to try to get a skill, only to get another crappy sage archer skill that you will sell for 300k if your lucky:) Shrug......As many have said I guess culti doesnt mater as much as if you choose to cashshop or not......So just do what is fun:) Not really educational or new information but maybe my ranting gives an opinion atleast. Demon spark is free....all those other skills are a pain in the butt to get:)