HA-AA Veno / AA Veno

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@What Are Veno's Major Weaknesses in PvE?
Im well aware that the actual % of phy damage reduction gained is higher for an AA Veno. Still that dont make fox form particuarily effective for combat. A strength build AA, even tho Im sure the damage in fox form is considerably higher than a normal AA, and probably even LA. It will lack alot of accuracy for melee use, the magic will be just as weak as a HA or LA build, and the HP of a pure build.

i know it wasnt related to other forusm thread so i thought of making one myself.

that you need to explain me again please, cause i dont get it b:shutup
Would like to know the usage for AA Veno staying in fox form here generally.
I use fox form only at AOE-melee bosses for higher pdef, to run in and amp, to dd as fox is useless for me cause i do miss like every 4th hit. Every AA-Veno does in Human more demage with magic skills than a HA-AA-fox user, so why would a AA veno DD in fox form?
As it is for soloing bosses as AA...i need all my mag to heal my pet and have no time to DD. As for HA i dont think he can keep up with the heals and would need to tank himself (repair costs + food)

So o.o i m lvl91 "only" and been thinking why so many restated lately to HA-AA. I met a HA-AA Veno who tanked brim for us. But to be honest even with lvl100 heals, she still needed aloooot of hp food + alpha male to keep agro.

Since we are discussing it..i thought about advantages and disadvantages as HA-AA build. Maybe i might like it and restat to it, but i dont see many advantages since they all can compete with AA Veno (i m not into pk -unless its in cube- and tws anyway).

advantages and disadvantages for HA-AA/AA Veno in squads
HA-AA:
higher pdef, more survivability against AOE physical bosses, due HA Gear
Is decent in pk and pve on demage recieving and dealing.
Less heals for Pet
High costs on HP and MP food.

AA:
low pdef, high magic attack
Is inadequate in pk (i just gonna call it inadequate, to underline AA is worse in pk then HA-AA Veno).
High heals for Pet.
decent costs on HP food, no costs on MP food (from my personal expirience).

anything else?
I thought about restating to HA-AA Veno, but tbh its neither one thing, nor another. As for demage dealing, i wont do so much as HA Veno, neither as AA Veno, cause there is always like 200 points deficit either on MAG or STR.

Would like to hear your opinion, because i m still thinking about restating but i dont see that many advantages of it.


My other idea was to put that much points on STR so its enough for TT70 HA gear to solo some really hard-***-aoe-melee bosses, not sure about it tho.

Edit: :O no flamewar about other peoples gear. its their choice! they have to play with it. i actually want to hear opinions from HA-AA Venos themself to compare my and their exprience.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Well for most AA Venos fox form isnt especially useful for anything but their debuffs. The quote is a reply to a post who used an example of an AA with high strength to prove that some AA build in theory have use for fox form DDing. There are some bosses that are wood immune, and its kinda obvious that blazing scarab wont be the way to go when you do have fox form skills that at least are spamable.

HA/AA does have weaker pet heals, but this is partly countered with refined weapons. However, its not a necessity to do pet heals if you choose to tank yourself.

As for the listed advantages on HA/AA I can agree to some of it. However, the MP food usage can be rather limited, I dont even carry MP pots on me anymore. HP food on normal grinding wont be a problem either. However when soloing bosses by tanking them yourself, you will consume ALOT of HP food(However, so does the claw archers).

I think a very general way to compare the two builds would be that AA is a cheaper way to go, while HA/AA is a faster way. Not utilizing pet tanking means you can increase your damage output considerably without fearing the aggro. Hence the kill times will plummet. But youll end up with barb repairs, especially since your weapon is rather squishy when used to pound on bosses all the time.

(A bit messy written, short on time. You can feel free to mail me in game if you want to talk some there )

BloodyQueen - Dreamweaver

I personally find HA/AA only good for pk/tws and tanking ofc since you have higher p def and can survive melee ganks/more hits from boss. I was thinking of going HA/AA myself but I decided better to stay AA. I love big numbers on my screen and I will hate the lack of mag attack and my low heals 'cus my pet is the one tanking. I also wouldn't wanna spend a **** load of cash on hp food etc.

As for doing faster at bosses... I myself think it will be slower and more expensive unless you go LA and 4aps then it will be faster.

Yes, we have both melee and magic skill trees. If we are AA we will lack p attack if we are HA we will lack mag attack but if we are HA/AA we will lack both tho deal decently good dmg with either of the skill trees.

I might be wrong since I never played a HA/AA veno but that is my opinion. I have nothing against HA venos. I respect them for choosing that not so easy path.

Feel free to correct my mistakes(if any).

Arshies - Sanctuary

HA/AA is mostly just for TW/PK to take down the bm, archers and barbs.
The 99% of the times you are going to tank something is better let your pet do it because the pet saves in repairs, HP food and allows you to DD/debuff while heals.

This also depends on the AA hybrid gear you can afford but you have to reach into like 7-8k mp to do something as AA

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

Ok, after reading all comments i came to one conclusion. might be right or wrong, tell me about it.

The main reason to stay a AA Veno is to let the Pet do all the job, while you heal him. So the indirect goal is to keep up with heals and not actually the own dmg.

I have recently problems to keep agro with Herc (bash lvl5), since my magic attack is high. So i thought to make a calculation other way around.

Lets asume my main goal is to heal Pet 80% at once of his HP (without buffs on Pet or without buffs on me) not considering the DD point.

That means at 20% of his HP, i should be able to heal 80% to fill his HP bar.

Since i have a Herc, i will take only his HP as calculation basis.


Herc lvl100 has 4585 HP

20% HP = 917 HP (left on Herc)
80% HP = 3668 HP (i should heal with one casting)

Healing Skill restores 540 HP + 30% of Magic attack

3668HP - 540 HP = 3128 HP left to restore..ergo
3128 = 30% of magic attack
10427~ magic attack = 100%

b:cute Thats my "interesting" calculation.

To be able to get 10,5k Magic attack, i think its better to stay with AA build...need to check pwi calc tho, if there is another possibility.

BloodyQueen - Dreamweaver

Interesting calculation you made there. If a HA/AA veno manages to get that number of mag attack then HA/AA might actually be a very good build. Taking more dmg, dealing good damage in both human and fox form and also having good heals. :Q But then again you won't be needing pets anymore. This makes me think of restating to HA/AA again. b:surrender

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

xD ok guys i m done.

i tried to look at last example in another thread (HA-AA Guide Veno)

felozial12 wrote: »

want to do is this:
http://pwcalc.com/ecc1096e2210df63

I was suprised about the high stats till i realised (after one hour trying and clicking lol) that he used it in buffed form...with BM and with Cleric buffs.

Here is my end result unbuffed (lets call it AA-HA build, since the other one is HA-AA) :

Summery on Gear:
AA-Rank8+12
AA-Nirvana+12
Pataka with physical attack shards +12
Ornaments +8 (except the cube necklace, its +12)
High HP (10k)
Channel -30% (i did pay attention to channel, since as caster its important for me)

AA Gear in human form UNBUFFED.
http://pwcalc.com/5893b098e501f721
Summery:
low physical. attack (4k~)
High mag attack 10k+ (dont confuse with "very high")
good pdef (for a caster) 5,6k

AA Gear in fox form (with melee mastery).
http://pwcalc.com/e486d3282b898c45
Summery:
decent-good physical attack (5,9k~)
High mag attack of 10k+ (dont confuse with "very high")
good pdef (for a caster) 10k~


So..what you think about it? b:shocked

I thought why not stay mainly still AA, since i dont do much DMG (comparring to other classes) generally anyway, lets concetrate on healing the Pet and DD in human AND in fox form, without getting agro from pet.

truekossy

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Summery on Gear:
AA-Rank8+12
AA-Nirvana+12
Pataka with physical attack shards +12
Ornaments +8 (except the cube necklace, its +12)
High HP (10k)
Channel -30% (i did pay attention to channel, since as caster its important for me)

AA Gear in human form UNBUFFED.
http://pwcalc.com/5893b098e501f721
Summery:
low physical. attack (4k~)
High mag attack 10k+ (dont confuse with "very high")
good pdef (for a caster) 5,6k

AA Gear in fox form (with melee mastery).
http://pwcalc.com/e486d3282b898c45
Summery:
decent-good physical attack (5,9k~)
High mag attack of 10k+ (dont confuse with "very high")
good pdef (for a caster) 10k~


So..what you think about it? b:shocked

I thought why not stay mainly still AA, since i dont do much DMG (comparring to other classes) generally anyway, lets concetrate on healing the Pet and DD in human AND in fox form, without getting agro from pet.

You gota remember... most of the damage with that is coming from the weapon instead of the build.

Quickly thrown together heavy/robe that's not using optimum equips:

+10 refines and all that, sapphires instead of garnets in weapon. Using r8 patkia instead of a magic sword/glaive

Human form: http://pwcalc.com/d695457576810ef3
4.1k-4.6k phys attack (400-600 above yours)
7.7k-10.9k mag attack (200-400 above yours)
9.3k phys defense (4k above yours)
8.9k mag defense (1.1k below yours)
15% crit (4% above yours)
13.1k HP (3k above yours)
5.9k MP (800 below yours)
19% -channel (8 below yours)
-0.25 interval (Don't care much about this since a patkia's in use)

Fox form same non-culti self-buffs as your calc:
16k p.def (6k above yours)
5.8k-6.5k phys attack (400-600 above yours)

And, of course, you have to keep in mind that the veno in my calc would, ideally, also have a set of arcane armor and phys ornaments/rings to swap around depending on the scenario. So that veno shown isn't at its peak performance capability for either a singular type of defense or physical offense.

Basically, if you're using an arcane veno, it's best, statistically speaking, to play to its strengths by keeping the magic high since when you start pushing your str higher, you wind up losing out compared to the Heavy/Robe build. This is, of course, assuming you can afford either build.


But in all honesty, Heavy/Robe is more of a PvP oriented build anyways. If you don't plan to participate in PK or TW actively, it's normally best to stick to a more conventional Arcane build.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

xD thanks for reply. very interesting build, tho i m scared i might not be able to afford 50% of this stuff (like SoT) the rest i can at least farm (no time as merchant). i did grind all my gear so far by myself.

question..about your build here tho..why do you think its not pve orientated as well? it has over 10k mag attack, which means you can keep up with heals for herc. if you get both gear sets for AA and HA, you can actually switch to channel anytime then.


i thought to go first for AA
http://pwcalc.com/f4c69dc8fa3e75d4

truekossy

Yeah. Heavy/Robe is actually very versatile in PvE. The ability to tank physical or magical damage and being able to rely on a pet as more of a support than a primary tank can be incredibly useful.

The problem with it for strictly PvE is that, frankly, a well built (or rich) arcane veno can get similar enough results in terms of defense and (non-physical) offense for the costs of Heavy/Robe to seem to outweigh the benefits. Especially since, depending on your playstile, you may find yourself rarely taking advantage of the strengths and versatility of the build.

ColdSnow - Dreamweaver

truekossy wrote: »

Yeah. Heavy/Robe is actually very versatile in PvE. The ability to tank physical or magical damage and being able to rely on a pet as more of a support than a primary tank can be incredibly useful.

The problem with it for strictly PvE is that, frankly, a well built (or rich) arcane veno can get similar enough results in terms of defense and (non-physical) offense for the costs of Heavy/Robe to seem to outweigh the benefits. Especially since, depending on your playstile, you may find yourself rarely taking advantage of the strengths and versatility of the build.

True i actuall dd very rarely in fox form. i forgot to change my weapon in previous link btw to rank...lol had even shabby shard on it. anyway i think i will stick to pure AA then. if i reach ever lvl100 (i tend to stop at 99 lol) i will restat to pure. thanks for the info tho.
the main reason why i m actually so concentrated on HA-AA atm, is due some bosses that i did in 3-x lately to farm my tt90 and got one shot by everything so was wondering if its not better to restat to HA-AA to survive their AOE generally since i like bosses there and would like to solo some.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Personally, I hate using patakas. The damage span is too wide for my preferences in magic, and hampers my damage dealing in fox form considerably.

To +10 every piece of armor isnt going to happen for me in a long time, hoping to hit +7 on em all at some point tho. Before getting the vast amounts of coin needed for those +10, Id rather go for more damage, maybe in form fo a G15 nirvana(started to save, probably done in a few months... I hope...)

For the HA/AA veno the rule of thumb have been to get a magic sword or a glaive, I prefer the magic sword myself. Patakas are best at no/low -int as youll be using skills to keep the damage up a bit. While a wand got the same attack rate, its simply too low damage in melee. Being a steady defender of the fox form builds, I still think that both the versatility of the build, and the damage output possible to achieve makes it just as good for the normal PvE as any other build.

Current build:
http://pwcalc.com/84766f4867600d3a

Build I HOPE to achieve:
http://pwcalc.com/591e18c17574cfb0

(Just want to suggest changing the belt youre using in your AA examples to the Warsong ones, theyre G14 and will give you the extra HP as well.)

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

finally someone to compare notes with b:cute

i didnt care much for the guy's build who posted with the nirvana 1st cast pataka, for 2 reasons, 1st he was relying on the +str from the pataka to equip armor, 2nd because he wasted 100 raps on making a nirvana pataka.

i agree with the sentiment that patakas are generally awful, and having next to full interval, the lower attack rate really sucks. however, with cheap rank available, i did the calculations, haveing a +7 neon, and even at the lower attack rate, r8 pataka out DPS'ed the wand with 1 lower refine easily ( not taking into account increased time sparked of course) cause lets be honest, perma-sparking with a magic weapon is impossible anyway, and debuffing is a better use of your time that would otherwise be used rebuilding chi.

if i had the inclination i would probably shoot for a +20 attack lvl g15 sword too, but ~300m if your lucky with the recasting is a bit cost-prohibitive.

heres my build, http://pwcalc.com/89bab340cb92fce1 yeah, with r8 pataka. I was really hoping the base weapons would turn out better than they did, but, they didnt, so i got r8.

even though the weapon is a pataka, the low-end damage is still quite high, the other benefits of my build are, the additional attack level from the hat, the added magic defense from the ornaments, and the ability to swap out r8 channel top and [any] channel sleeves without moving anything else around.

aside from the added interval, the LA ornaments are awful. of couse the other great bonus of this build, which im sure you have taken advantage of, is that a pro 4.0 unsparked bm is just a couple frosts and a set of deicides away.

SmurfJegeren - Dreamweaver

Ive simply not made any efforts to get a nirvana bonus due to my "aps over stats" build. Wich vasicly means "Im not able to equip better armor cause the stuff that give me -int dont give enough stats" =3

Aiming for G15 is simply cause I dont have to do anything with my build to achieve a nice improvement. I wonder if youre mostly a caster, basicly cause of your Sapphire shards and slighly higher magic than really needed for your weapon. I mostly only use magic on a boss in Lunar and in PvP. Wich is why I just dont bother with it.

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

Just a note, I'm an AA build...you don't have to have low pdef on an AA. You can still get a decent pdef that will allow you to survive in 3-X TT runs. Granted HA-AA will still have a higher end when buffed...If I recall right I think in another HA-AA vs AA discussion SashaGray mentioned that they had over 20k (can't remember) pdef in fox.

I can get upwards of 16.7k pdef in fox buffed and over 10k in fox unbuffed. So it all depends on how you build. I rarely die in any of the 3-X TTs.