90+Sharding...

Sin_Ftw - Harshlands

Question about sharding....

Citrine- extra Hp for the win?
Garnet- easier to fight off sins and BMs? soloing easier?
Saphire- never considered this but just curious?

I gathered id lose 300hp or so if shard garnets over citrines(my tt90 set is 2-3 sockets)

Thanks for any infob:surrender

Ps- cant afford DoDs...though DoT sounds fun to fully shard a suit with

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Garnets suck.

"90+ sharding" pretty much means "endgame sharding" and there's really only a few choices:
JSOD for Def levels
DoT for Atk Levels
Primevals/Savants for +vita
Citrine X for +hp

All of them have their pros as cons and whichever path you go depends really only on yourself. DoT isn't adviced unless you have decent refines, as you'll have to depend on those for your life. JSOD is overkill unless it's exclusively PvP. Most people go Primevals or Savants for the life and the pdef.

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Garnets suck.

"90+ sharding" pretty much means "endgame sharding" and there's really only a few choices:
JSOD for Def levels
DoT for Atk Levels
Primevals/Savants for +vita
Citrine X for +hp

All of them have their pros as cons and whichever path you go depends really only on yourself. DoT isn't adviced unless you have decent refines, as you'll have to depend on those for your life. JSOD is overkill unless it's exclusively PvP. Most people go Primevals or Savants for the life and the pdef.

Riiiight.

You mean "most people with x00 mill coin to drop".

<snort>

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Feeln, you have to realize most endgame sins DO have x00 mil coin to drop...

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Riiiight.

You mean "most people with x00 mill coin to drop".

<snort>

Hey, don't look at me, I'm going with Perfect Citrines. But that's because then I don't need to buy a Lunar Cape, which saves me some 40-45m on its own.

Olbaze, go back to lvl 80. You've become a real butthead in your 90s...

Eh?

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Nevermind... Took me a minute to think about what I said. Sorry >>

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I'm just using flawless cits in my gear until I farm enough to afford vit stones.

Empu - Sanctuary

I'd never shard with garnet or saphire on my sin. It just doesn't seem very usefull to me.

The best would be either 1 or a mix off :
HP (citrines or ideally vit stone)
DoD or JoSD
DoT

However, I'd only use those on gear that is really end-game. For any temporary gear, I suggest to just go with citrines. The vit stones or DoT/DoD are just to expensive to put in some item you gonna decompose (not even sure you can put them into TT90s).

And you can always do what Skai does :P

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

;P

Vit stones not only give 130 health per stone for an assassin, but also some p defense

As Empu has stated, any stone other than flawless cits are a waste of money to put into non-endgame gear. In total I have 20 flawless cits in my equipment, and 2 flawless garnets in my weapon. Sure it looks pretty "noobish" to have them in such endgame gear, but it's better than putting in perfects; only to purify the equipment to upgrade to vit stones and waste 3-4m per shard. Sure it's an extra 22 health per shard over grade 7 (flawless), but it's not worth the price tag.

140k for a temporary extra 40 health is a good enough deal for me. Even 5 of my shards weren't even bought as they were obtained through FC.

Once I do get enough to afford even 1 vit stone, that'd be enough for me to empty out one of my 3 socket equipments and stuff a stone in there, as 130 hp + p def > 120 hp.

But we'll see how things go. If I bother to research more into how defense levels work, I might look into JSoD more. 48 defense levels sounds delicious ;o

Empu - Sanctuary

_Skai_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

But we'll see how things go. If I bother to research more into how defense levels work, I might look into JSoD more. 48 defense levels sounds delicious ;o

The reason I put JoSD, vit stones and DoT on same lvl is cause I don't think 1 of them is better then the other in general. I think it's more a personal choice also depending someones build and opinion (what is "enough hp" for you?). Many talk about defences "diminishing returns" (or however it's spelled), but imo hp have that same thing. Getting from 4.9k hp to 5.4k hp is a great progress, while going from 6.5k to 7k won't make that much of a difference to me.

Personally I went with only DoT. Using a zerk weapon, I don't think going all vit stones and ending up with 10k+ hp unbuffed would be a great idea b:chuckle Since I'm sage, and got good refines on armor, I didn't feel like I needed more survivability. So I went with att lvls, that also have for nice effect to make up for not having aps boost from spark (82 att lvls now, 127 with chill b:dirty). Having another weapon, or another culti would probably make my shard choice "a bad option". Without sage spark on bosses I can't take hit b:chuckle

Maybe you'll find, while graduately putting in your vit stones in armor, that you say "damn, so much hp, maybe I better put something else in the rest" :P

_Skai_ - Raging Tide

I see. Thanks for your input Empu

I talked with a few sin friends of mine, and I think the best option would be Vit stones in top/boots/bracers/cape, and JoSD in the rest. I forgot that the jade is a g13 gem ~_~

BriarFoxy - Raging Tide

Sin_Ftw - Harshlands wrote: »

Question about sharding....

Citrine- extra Hp for the win?
Garnet- easier to fight off sins and BMs? soloing easier?
Saphire- never considered this but just curious?

I gathered id lose 300hp or so if shard garnets over citrines(my tt90 set is 2-3 sockets)

Thanks for any infob:surrender

Ps- cant afford DoDs...though DoT sounds fun to fully shard a suit with

I was SHOCKED to find out the Socket/Survival Calculator told me to shard 24 Vit Gems on my Mystic in order to survive against a 101 R9 PvP opponent. Who could guess that????

VenoMKII - Harshlands

BriarFoxy - Raging Tide wrote: »

I was SHOCKED to find out the Socket/Survival Calculator told me to shard 24 Vit Gems on my Mystic in order to survive against a 101 R9 PvP opponent. Who could guess that????

Anyone? 48 defence levels is instantly overridden by the 50 off R9 gear, so you face full on power still. In PvE theyre awesome, in PVP... in nonR9 / Nirvana fullsets they arnt the best choice most of the time for this....

Okeano - Harshlands

VenoMKII - Harshlands wrote: »

Anyone? 48 defence levels is instantly overridden by the 50 off R9 gear, so you face full on power still. In PvE theyre awesome, in PVP... in nonR9 / Nirvana fullsets they arnt the best choice most of the time for this....

Errr no... that's not the reason. Don't repeat the "no point sharding def cuz it's like having no shard vs attack lvls". Your def lvl cancels out equal amount of their attack lvls so you get hit for less than the ones shard VIT, I'm sure that's easy to understand.

The reason behind VIT instead of JoSD, as Aster explained it was the trade off between taking X% less damage or increase X% of HP pool. If your base HP is low and you are facing a very high attack lvls, let's say 150, having 48 def lvls means you'll get hit for 202% of their normal damage instead of 250%, so you have reduced the damage you take by 19%. In the case of low HP character, if sharding VIT increase your HP by more than 19%, then it's better to shard VIT (if against 150 attack lvls).

But if you are facing only 60 attack levels, having 48 def lvls means you get hit for 112% of their normal damage instead of 160%. That's 30% reduction and it'll be less likely that VIT stones can increase your HP pool by 30%.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm comparing the same things when I'm comparing the % of reduction of damage (might have to convert to damage taken?) to % HP increase to take more hits, but you get the general idea. The higher attack lvls you face, the smaller the % of total damage that 48 def lvls reduce. An extreme example is, if you can only cut the damage you take by 1/3, it's better off to double your HP.

VenoMKII - Harshlands

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Errr no... that's not the reason. Don't repeat the "no point sharding def cuz it's like having no shard vs attack lvls". Your def lvl cancels out equal amount of their attack lvls so you get hit for less than the ones shard VIT, I'm sure that's easy to understand.

The reason behind VIT instead of JoSD, as Aster explained it was the trade off between taking X% less damage or increase X% of HP pool. If your base HP is low and you are facing a very high attack lvls, let's say 150, having 48 def lvls means you'll get hit for 202% of their normal damage instead of 250%, so you have reduced the damage you take by 19%. In the case of low HP character, if sharding VIT increase your HP by more than 19%, then it's better to shard VIT (if against 150 attack lvls).

But if you are facing only 60 attack levels, having 48 def lvls means you get hit for 112% of their normal damage instead of 160%. That's 30% reduction and it'll be less likely that VIT stones can increase your HP pool by 30%.

I'm not entirely sure if I'm comparing the same things when I'm comparing the % of reduction of damage (might have to convert to damage taken?) to % HP increase to take more hits, but you get the general idea. The higher attack lvls you face, the smaller the % of total damage that 48 def lvls reduce. An extreme example is, if you can only cut the damage you take by 1/3, it's better off to double your HP.

Im aware of the defences to HP ratio, sorry for not explaining it better. I still wasnt wrong however. Unless you can cancel out a huge chunk of their damage defence levels kind of suck in PvP, hence with R9 they work well (20 armorset + 40 in sockets + 15/15 bless = 75 defence levels = 25% less damage after the cancellation.) But with other gears where you can only get say 24 (best you can fit into an assassin full APS build assuming Jones blessing(Real G13 Lunar cape, Nirv Helm + pants)) youl still take 26% more damage assuming you had the same HP gain/defence from refines.

~Even then I still fail at explainin -_- just take it as youve tought me nothing I didnt know already and il dissapear again, leaving the explaining to the teacher-types b:surrender

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Garnets suck.

"90+ sharding" pretty much means "endgame sharding" and there's really only a few options

Really?

http://pwcalc.com/3c03f229c436abdd Full Vit stone sharded, 11231 hp, 13069 pdef (76%)
http://pwcalc.com/1537529a9e97260b Full Garnet G11 sharded, 8891 hp, 17520 pdef (81%)

24%/19% means that sharding garnet gems give you 126.31% more survivability than sharding vit stones. Times that by your garnet hp and

8891hp x 1.2631 = 11231 hp. Lol. Exactly the same.

Of course, garnet sharded sins would get ***** even more by casters in pvp. But in pve its easier to paint heal 8891 hp with 81% pdef reduction than it is to heal 11231 hp with only 76% pdef reduction.


That being said, vit stones offer 13hp and some defense per vit point. If you don't condsider the defense a JoSD would be equal to those 13 hp when a sin only has 6500 hp. Considering the defense is... more difficult but I'd guess once you have 7500 hp JoSD would do alot more for you than vit stones (at double the price).

Personally, I still consider damage output a sins best defense so I'm split sharding JoSD in my G15's and DoT in my G12.

Pytharia - Lost City

necro

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really?

http://pwcalc.com/3c03f229c436abdd Full Vit stone sharded, 11231 hp, 13069 pdef (76%)
http://pwcalc.com/1537529a9e97260b Full Garnet G11 sharded, 8891 hp, 17520 pdef (81%)

24%/19% means that sharding garnet gems give you 126.31% more survivability than sharding vit stones. Times that by your garnet hp and

8891hp x 1.2631 = 11231 hp. Lol. Exactly the same.

Of course, garnet sharded sins would get ***** even more by casters in pvp. But in pve its easier to paint heal 8891 hp with 81% pdef reduction than it is to heal 11231 hp with only 76% pdef reduction.

So wait, you put +10 refines so that both builds have ridiculous base life to begin with and then put on BM and cleric buffs to make the Garnets even better? Talk about one hell of a biased comparison.

Fully buffed, your point is perfectly valid. Take out the buffs and it's down to 11,231 hp vs 10,280, which is much less convincing, especially since the Garnet build is much more vulnerable against magic attacks. And considering that sins tend to use pdef ornaments and Might rings, I think they tend to come with higher pdef than mag def.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Unnoticed necro ftw?

Okeano - Harshlands

Necro's overrated.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Garnets suck.

"90+ sharding" pretty much means "endgame sharding" and there's really only a few choices:

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

So wait, you put +10 refines so that both builds have ridiculous base life to begin with and then put on BM and cleric buffs to make the Garnets even better? Talk about one hell of a biased comparison.

Fully buffed, your point is perfectly valid. Take out the buffs and it's down to 11,231 hp vs 10,280, which is much less convincing, especially since the Garnet build is much more vulnerable against magic attacks.

You were the one that said "90+ sharding is about endgame sharding". +10ing you gear gives more hp than adding a +10 vit stone and is cheaper so who the hell is adding vit stones to their gear without +10ing it first? Rules of refine/sharding is efficiancy, do what costs the least but gives the most hp first.

And I pointed out what you said before you posted, that garnets are a pve option and not a pvp option. I then said that I don't even recommend garnets, I prefer JoSD and DoT and Vit shards if you need them to get your base hp up a bit so I'm not even sure what the point of you posting was?

Sorry for continuing to post in a necro

Empu - Sanctuary

Before it get's closed...

Honestly saku, your previous post is just way of reality and doesn't make any sence at all :

1) Like you say, that garnet build is so epic that you will never do it yourself and confirm what Obla already said : garnets are not part of the endgame choice.

2) For comparability's sake, either compare full buffed, or only self buffed.

3) You totally leave out what's really hard on bosses when soloing or tanking. There are basicly 4 difficulties : stun/sleep/seal/etc, debuffs, special attacks and self buffing. On first there is the bp heal point for garnet build, but there is the apo and charm healing argument on the vit build. On debuffs, vit build obviously wins, unless it's an amp combined with physical hits. On special attacks, they are magic based 80% of the time, so vit wins again. On self buffing bosses, well, all depends. The fact garnets only work on 1 side is a huge disadvantage.

I know this is a necro, but wanted to put this in. A garnet build is only for ppl that know what they are doing and have some specific goals. For those who are not sure, and thus may look for info here, I think it's better to stick with the regular options : citrine, vit stones, josd or dot.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

I don't think pure garnets sharding is a real option, No.

Olba said Garnets suck and completely disregarded that they have any use endgame. I wasn't trying to say that they were the best option, just trying say don't completely count them out by using generalizations like "Garnets Suck."




On a sin I do like the idea of more defense over more hp if you considering the same survivability. That's kind of what sage sins do.

Lets say pure citrine sin with 12500 hp vs a sin with 25% more dmg reduction (either JoSD, garnets, sage spark...) and only 10k hp. So theoretically equal survivability, right? The 10k hp sin can take 25% more dmg = 12.5k hp. What I would prefer is the damage reduction so that my paint heal is healing a greater percent of my own hp. That's why I would look into things like garnets before citrines, or JoSDs before Vit gems.

I was only suggesting people play with the pwcalc rather than generalize. My example was bad because after 24 garnets 125 more pdef doesn't mean much. At the same time the greater your hp the more damage reduction becomes important. I personally know what my endgame is and feel I can afford 20 sockets spots, 14 DoT and 6 JoSD.

Empu - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

On a sin I do like the idea of more defense over more hp if you considering the same survivability. That's kind of what sage sins do.

Lets say pure citrine sin with 12500 hp vs a sin with 25% more dmg reduction (either JoSD, garnets, sage spark...) and only 10k hp. So theoretically equal survivability, right? The 10k hp sin can take 25% more dmg = 12.5k hp. What I would prefer is the damage reduction so that my paint heal is healing a greater percent of my own hp. That's why I would look into things like garnets before citrines, or JoSDs before Vit gems.

This is where you go wrong. Garnets are only a 1 side survivability, and extremely sensitive to debuffs.

Sage spark vs vit, Yes. JoSD vs vit, Yes. Garnet vs vit (or citrine), No. Unless you consider Kimsa and Gouf is worth basing a build on, you can't say garnet increases survivability that much. Especially when it's armor breaks and mag attacks that hurt.

Also, you forget to take into account that there are heals that favor high hp. ToP will heal way more on a hp build, which makes up (at least a little) for the bp thing.