Wizards and Psychics

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

But you left out jones blessing, and other sources of attack levels. (Attack levels have diminishing returns except that they nullify defense levels.)

With endgame gear, I think psychic black voodoo would wind up being something like 10% to 15% extra damage bonus when compared with a similarly geared wizard, if their weapon and skills were identical.

attack levels do NOT have diminishing returns as I said in the wiz section.
in any case, while u can call diminishing returns the non-exponensial returns of attack level you cannot say that the extra bonus will be 10-15%



let X be the psychic dmg before appplying attack/def lvls, X+Y the wiz dmg.
A the attack lvl of the wiz, A+0.25 the attack lvl of the psy, D the defense lvl of the target

if A > D then the total dmg will be:
psy: X + X(0.25+A-D)
wiz: X + Y + X (A-D) + Y(A-D)
difference: psy - wiz = 0.25X - Y - Y(A-D)

So, if Y = 0 then the dmg of he psy will be 25% greater than the dmg of the wiz
REGARDLESS of the total attack level and the defense level

Same happens when A+25<D but it's ~1 page of calculations, i'll leave them as an exercise.
Actually, it doesnt happen the same; the psy dmg will be even greater than 25% more

Something interesting happens with A<D, A+25>D, it appears that the bonus in the psy dmg is greater than 25% only if the difference between attack/def lvl of the psy/target is less than 67.and if it's greater than 87 the psy dmg will be lower.

This, sounds like a miscalculation on either my part or the equation.
I think it's undecided whether the part of the equation for A<D is 100% correct.
That would explain the greater gain in dmg in the second case too.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Most of what Thanos just said makes my eyes/brain hurt (numbers QQ), but he's right.

Attack DOES NOT suffer from diminishing returns. Let me repeat that- attack diminishing returns no suffer.

Defense DOES suffer from diminishing returns, except when it's matched up to attack, in which case it cancels eachother out.

Most common example is that white voodoo does not decrease damage by 99%.

But by simply attacking, then removing your jones blessing, you'll clearly see that your attacks do 30% more with it equipped.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

attack levels do NOT have diminishing returns as I said in the wiz section.
in any case, while u can call diminishing returns the non-exponensial returns of attack level you cannot say that the extra bonus will be 10-15%



let X be the psychic dmg before appplying attack/def lvls, X+Y the wiz dmg.
A the attack lvl of the wiz, A+0.25 the attack lvl of the psy, D the defense lvl of the target

if A > D then the total dmg will be:
psy: X + X(0.25+A-D)
wiz: X + Y + X (A-D) + Y(A-D)
difference: psy - wiz = 0.25X - Y - Y(A-D)

So, if Y = 0 then the dmg of he psy will be 25% greater than the dmg of the wiz
REGARDLESS of the total attack level and the defense level

Same happens when A+25<D but it's ~1 page of calculations, i'll leave them as an exercise.
Actually, it doesnt happen the same; the psy dmg will be even greater than 25% more

Something interesting happens with A<D, A+25>D, it appears that the bonus in the psy dmg is greater than 25% only if the difference between attack/def lvl of the psy/target is less than 67.and if it's greater than 87 the psy dmg will be lower.

This, sounds like a miscalculation on either my part or the equation.
I think it's undecided whether the part of the equation for A<D is 100% correct.
That would explain the greater gain in dmg in the second case too.

Ok, so, using your terms:

X is psychic damage
Y is how much more damage a wizard does than a psychic

You have claimed that if Y is zero then a psychic with jones blessing and black voodoo will do 25% more damage than a wizard with jones blessing.

But jones blessing increases damage done by 30%.

So the psychic is doing X * (1 + 0.3 + 0.25) damage and the wizard is doing X (1 + 0.3) damage

So the psychic is doing 1.55/1.3 times more damage than the wizard. That's 1.1923 times the wizard's damage or a 19% increase.

So your claim that the psychic does 25% more damage than the wizard cannot be true for this case, because 19% is not 25%.

Does this make sense to you, or do I need to explain some of the steps I took there?

Kerona - Sanctuary

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

good psychics will never use tide spirit nor red tide because they need the chi for earth vector/psychics will...

also did any wiz pull up a tripple ultimate combo till now?

Chi pots + Cloud Eruption. b:surrender Tide Spirit stacks with weapon damage from triple spark, btw. Sooo triple spark, tide spirit, 6 seconds of massive damage with 0 channeling. Expensive but does the trick. Heck if you're really going all out you can still psy will or earth vector feasibly.


I will add though, red tide is a waste. I don't even know why that got brought up.

PinkyRose - Archosaur

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

good psychics will never use tide spirit nor red tide because they need the chi for earth vector/psychics will...

OBJECTION!


I use Red Tide all the time in PvP. Something about a bleed that causes 11200 damage in 5 seconds just makes me giggle....not to mention the initial impact damage....it'd be worth the sparks if it hit more often, but that's what the upgrades are for.
The only thing terrible about Red Tide is the spark costs for the lack of damage. If you're an idiot and you haven't upgraded the skill, of COURSE it's going to suck...much like Glacial Shards if you don't upgrade it. (Hurp derp derp.)

Red Tide is a useful crowd control; even if it doesn't stick on your target, it can still hit others around it, which works either way you slice it. Personally, I enjoy watching mobs attempt to kill me, whilst bleeding to death.

It's a very useful AoE. I like spamming it on an NPC, and watching the Assassins nearby drop like flies. That, and Aqua Cannon, which I find extremely damaging when properly leveled, can cause massive havoc.

It's a very excellent tool in TW. Have you ever seen a cleric try to heal a squad while bleeding to death? It's most amusing. It can also take out Wizards, Archers, and of course, Assassins, rather quickly, depending on the PDef of course. I don't even bother casting on Barbs or BMs, although if it does stick....it's rather nice.

Sure, I could use Earth Vector and stun them for what, six seconds? That's no fun! I would MUCH rather gamble at killing nearly everything within my line of vision in one, chaotic explosion of water-based madness.

Sure, I could save up that spark for Psychic will....but when you have three sparks, that leaves an extra, so I personally never minded it. Besides, then your archers are too busy panicking, and trying NOT to die from the bleed, they can't really shoot at you, now can they? b:chuckle

Now Tide Spirit on the other hand....don't even know why I bothered getting that bloody skill.

Longknife - Harshlands

altweina wrote: »

So I have always heard the complaining that wizards were replaced by psychics, but had never played either so I didn't have an opinion. I started one of each to play around with after reading about how Rank 8 wizards are super powerful.....even better then psychics. In the early stages I would have to give the lead to psy's......wizard seems to channel SO MUCH SLOWER!! Now at later stages some of that is compensated for with better gear but they are still gonna be faster overall I would think. Wizards have a defense buff skill, is this what makes them better? Is it that the end game skills end up being more useful? Black voodoo is pretty straight forward but white voodoo seems to be a bit less useful? I put it on and I notice that things do a little bit less damage....140 instead of 175 or something like that, however my damage is reduced by maybe half??

Both hit hard

Both have AoE's

Both have a heal

Wizards have a shield

Thanks for your thoughts guys.....I was just surprised by the response comparing wizards to psychics. I never hear about wizards being better than pys's until now. It was always, they are replaced by psychics.

Psys can spam the balls out of their AOEs and have good ailments on every single one
Wizzies have very costly-yet-powerful AOEs that can be used to finish off entire squads

Psys have superior damage per second
Wizzies have superior damage per hit

Psys CAN have balls-awsum defense, but at the cost of balls-awful offense; otherwise Psys are god damn squishy
Wizzies have awsum defense all around at all times

Psys stack their cast time under the "cast" part
Wizzies stack their cast time under the "channeling" part
This means that since there is no reduced cast effect in the game currently, Wizzies TECHNICALLY have FAAAAR better DPS potential, though they can only access this with Essential Sutra, unless future updates start releasing more -channeling gear.


Psys power is dependent on a bag full of tricks and knowing how to use them: AOE stun, physical damage immunity, the unique soulburn effect, reflecting ailments, etc. Most importantly, their soulforce-related skills.
Wizzie power is dependent on pure numbers: they have the highest potential magic damage and they have a physical resistance shield that effectively doubles their actual physical resistance.



Psys stay alive by using their buffs and debuffs
Wizzies stay alive by kiting





It's quite understandable why people say Psys make Wizzies inferior upon first glance: Psys literally have every trick wizzies have AND can perform those tricks better until about level 49 or so. Wizzies also have skills that are based on PERCENTS, and at lower levels, a percent addition on top of a small base statistic is...not much of an increase. However, those percents only get stronger as time goes on; this is why wizzies are late bloomers. With every new version of the game that's released and everytime better gear is made avaliable to the public, Wizards get that much stronger, cause they're essentially getting 120%-300% more of a bonus than what the Psy is getting.

Longknife - Harshlands

Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »

good psychics will never use tide spirit nor red tide because they need the chi for earth vector/psychics will...

also did any wiz pull up a tripple ultimate combo till now?

Red Tide and Tide Spirit are late bloomer skills. :P

Red Tide is only good once you have a ****-ton of Soulforce; then it's quite a unique an effective way to take down an opponent that you'd otherwise have issues with. Say, if you're opponent is too smart to fall for Soulburn and you'd much rather fight the person in White voodoo, where your damage sucks balls. If your soulforce sucks though, then wtf no dun use it, lulz. Only time you might is if you're AOEing the balls out of a group and you need a decent hit to finish the job.

Tide Spirit becomes surprisingly more effective once your weapon improves; it's amazing how far that 100% damage increase can go when it comes to HA opponents. I'm just now starting to use it but it's very useful for taking out BMs before they can even reach me. Sometimes risking it all in those two sparks is better than playing physical resistance vs. stun lock for ages. If you don't see a noticeable increase in damage-per-hit with it though, then yeah don't bother.

Magna - Harshlands

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Ok, so, using your terms:

X is psychic damage
Y is how much more damage a wizard does than a psychic

You have claimed that if Y is zero then a psychic with jones blessing and black voodoo will do 25% more damage than a wizard with jones blessing.

But jones blessing increases damage done by 30%.

So the psychic is doing X * (1 + 0.3 + 0.25) damage and the wizard is doing X (1 + 0.3) damage

So the psychic is doing 1.55/1.3 times more damage than the wizard. That's 1.1923 times the wizard's damage or a 19% increase.

So your claim that the psychic does 25% more damage than the wizard cannot be true for this case, because 19% is not 25%.

Does this make sense to you, or do I need to explain some of the steps I took there?

Of course the percentages are different, but each attack level (above the target's defense level) provides the same amount of extra damage, which is NOT diminishing returns, but linear.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Something interesting happens with A<D, A+25>D, it appears that the bonus in the psy dmg is greater than 25% only if the difference between attack/def lvl of the psy/target is less than 67.and if it's greater than 87 the psy dmg will be lower.

This, sounds like a miscalculation on either my part or the equation.
I think it's undecided whether the part of the equation for A<D is 100% correct.
That would explain the greater gain in dmg in the second case too.

If Attack Level > Defense Level:
final damage = damage * (1 + (A - D)/100)

If Defense Level > Attack Level:
final damage = damage / (1 + 1.2 * (D - A)/100)