Non-BH Factions

Breloque - Archosaur

With BHs now being an integral part of the leveling process for many players, you often see recruitment world chats advertising faction BHs or help with BHs. BHs have raised the leveling speed expectation, and if you have no interest in BH you will quickly be left behind by those who do.

It's all well and good to say everyone should just play at their own pace, that it's just a game and to stop whining, but in many factions if you don't do BH, it's difficult to find a solid group of people to grind/quest with as you play "at your own pace" because tomorrow they'll be five levels higher than you.

Seeing how there's a faction for almost anything, I'm curious to know if any have sprung up specifically for players who don't do BH at all. Not exactly an anti-BH faction (nor one where BH is reinforced as being "optional not mandatory") but one where none of its members do any BHs, for their own reasons.This might include no FC/Hyper/Oracle spamming.

If not, why not, do you think? There are enough people on these forums and probably ingame who seem to dislike BH enough to allow for at least one of these factions on each server.

Thoughts?

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I'm not looking for a faction but a discussion, which is why it's In General, in case it's brought up.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

BH is more fun for most players, more rewarding and the coin "loss" can be countered by merch/cashop/tt.

grinding is pretty much boring for a lot of ppl; yes you might want to grind for 1h to relax but bh/tt is by far more intense and fun.

also, grinders are usually ppl that prefer to solo (unless we go to aoe grinding)
you dont really need help with grinding; so how would a faction advertise it.


most ppl here "hate" bh because:
1)they see everyone leveling/outleveling them faster. it's the same thing for r8 sale for those that had nirvana/lunar etc

2)bh can be used to powerlevel ppl (fc does it better but it's more common for higher lvls to help in a bh).

3)there are yulk.

Breloque - Archosaur

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

you dont really need help with grinding; so how would a faction advertise it.

I would suppose in the same way they did before BH was introduced. Even if FB and boss help isn't as big an incentive to join now, the no-BH thing would probably be enough to those who would prefer to go that way.

I get what you're saying but as far as any factions like this existing, I haven't yet seen a single WC or post advertising it which seems weird given how some feel about BH. I'm wondering if any other servers have something like this.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

to be honest with you, i think the number of people who just dont do bh at all are vastly out numbered by the ones who do do bh, therefore if there was any such thing as a non-bh faction on any server, it would be a small one and more than likely would not amount to much in terms of "power". The way I see it personally, there only just a few reasons that a faction exists. One of them being TW, the other being for the members of said faction to help each other progress their game to, well, end game. The faction that does not do BH at all has a very long road ahead of them to be useful for either of those two goals, and its members may as well be a part of the faction "factionless". Sure they will get there eventually if they have the perseverance to stick it out, but at a much slower rate than everyone else.

I havent seen your core profile yet, but I'm going to assume from the topic of this thread that this is your first character. Considering you're level 4x at the moment and leveling without BH can still be done at a rate of 1-2 levels per day it might seem as though getting to end game may go by relatively quick. However, the higher level you go - the less quests you get per level and the more experience it takes to level up. Eventually it gets to the point where quests give you only about 10% of your level and the rest is either A) grind it out or do BH/FC/solo hyper aoe grind. so, yeah.. eventually people are going to get tired of doing the same thing day in and day out. They'll want to progress their game to the next level and take on new and more interesting challenges, or equip that new weapon/armor they've been farming the last week or so for - etc.. Most people want a faction that can and will help them with those goals, as opposed to a faction that just grinds and does culti/quest bosses all day.

thats just my opinion

Gwendolynne - Heavens Tear

Breloque - Archosaur wrote: »

I would suppose in the same way they did before BH was introduced. Even if FB and boss help isn't as big an incentive to join now, the no-BH thing would probably be enough to those who would prefer to go that way.

I get what you're saying but as far as any factions like this existing, I haven't yet seen a single WC or post advertising it which seems weird given how some feel about BH. I'm wondering if any other servers have something like this.

Before BH, we Zhenned (aoe grind party for those that are newer to the game), Did RB, and Fished (80+ Group-thing where you kill the level 86 Fish in the water above Camp of the Intrepid), all teh while spamming esotericas. I don't see how BH is much different then any of those methods other then its a daily. Everyone can level at their own pace sure, but most people don't want to sit at low levels forever.

To be honest I don't understand why people don't do BH. I can see not doing FC with Hyper. But I still manage to do all of my quests, and BH on my characters and enjoy the game to its fullest while leveling (with pretty much the same group of people) at a decent pace. BH is wicked fun, I love charging into instances and finding new and fun ways to do them with people. The game is mostly in what YOU make it.

My advice to you, would be to maybe start up your own faction. Afterall we don't called them "guilds" for nothing. If you started one of these factions with the common purpose of not doing BH, you may find others that share the same outlook as you. =D

Clandore - Lost City

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Eventually it gets to the point where quests give you only about 10% of your level

Lol let's not give the illusion that quests at 9x gives more than 1% or 2% max of total EXP b:thanks

Breloque - Archosaur

Thanks for your post Baalbak. Yes, I'd agree such a faction wouldn't be attractive to most and would be small in numbers. I'm probably one of the odd ones but I honestly prefer how the game was before BH was introduced. It was an enormous grind but because of the snail's-pace progression, it was as though there was more social interaction to liven up the game. There might be a myriad of reasons why this has changed; I'm not saying it's due to the introduction of BH alone.

BH was fun *at first* and I liked the idea of it because it meant people would get to know instances better and improve how they work in squads. Now, however, it's pretty much all about the speed with which you can get it done, and going by the number of "Guess-what-this-noob-did-in-BH" threads we get here, the ability of the average player to successfully work as part of a team is questionable.

Anyway it'd be interesting to see how a faction like this goes if ever one were created.

To Gwendolynne, BHs just aren't my idea of fun. I'm happy with the faction I'm in; this thread was simply created to see if any non-BH factions existed. It was a random thought that popped into my head and I was curious about it

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

Breloque - Archosaur wrote: »

BH was fun *at first* and I liked the idea of it because it meant people would get to know instances better and improve how they work in squads. Now, however, it's pretty much all about the speed with which you can get it done, and going by the number of "Guess-what-this-noob-did-in-BH" threads we get here, the ability of the average player to successfully work as part of a team is questionable.

Yes, I thought BH would be neat because then I wouldn't have to do so many FB training runs anymore. God how wrong I was. PWI is just catering to the people that want the high levels without the work. Problem there is that without the work, you suck as a player.

My factions aren't neccesarrily non-BH factions, but we don't go out of our way to set up runs. As a result, although our numbers may be slightly smaller, we have a smaller percentage of idiots.

Xoria - Sanctuary

I liked BH at first as well. I was 92 when they were introduced and fishing was oh- so- boring and made me a little stir crazy at times. Those BHs, you wound up with different instances depending on when you reached the NPC and a few times, I wound up with 4 quests in a day when most people got 1 or 2 a day. At the start, because people only got 1 or 2 BHs a day, and not 3 like now, people didn't level as crazy- fast like they can now.

Players here argue that it teaches players how to co-operate in a squad. Not so. Players that think they can tank and steal aggro to prove it, only to die, still keep doing their methods over and over. Running around with 5 other players doesn't really teach you your own class (especially after I've taught some sins how rib strike helps keep even themselves alive).

How can an instance that you are generally 10-20 levels above, with a group, teach you anything? It's like sitting in a zhen squad on nightscream island at level 85+- they can hardly do any real damage to you. You actually learn in instances that pose real threats (like TT1-3 at 75 with only one player being high enough level to actually open it and using a barb with 8k HP when drummer could 1 shot the barb).

However, despite BHs being a preferred method, there are still players that do quest. Even back before BHs, it was assumed that most players did do quests other than their cultis. Even now, I still see lower levels looking for help in WC for Eyes of Krimson, Kimsa, Jewelscalen and even Stormhorn and Gargantuakong. I've seen chatrooms for Krixxix and Suzerix as well. No faction ever advertised quest help directly- bosses, yes, but not quests.

Usually, no matter what your faction 'specializes' in, at least one of your faction mates don't mind helping you on a quest you may have a particularly hard time completing. Pan Gu knows how many times I stole a BM to help me with those stupid tombstones near Thousand Streams....

Miugre - Heavens Tear

As much as I like to support new ideas, I have to say that there are probably better things to focus on. How about a faction that doesn't support Hypering?

Or better yet, a faction based around never using r8/r9 or "serious" APS gear? That one's been floating around in my head lately for awhile. :P It's hard to learn to play your class properly if you're using r8/int gear as a crutch.

Players here argue that it teaches players how to co-operate in a squad. Not so. Players that think they can tank and steal aggro to prove it, only to die, still keep doing their methods over and over. Running around with 5 other players doesn't really teach you your own class (especially after I've taught some sins how rib strike helps keep even themselves alive).

How can an instance that you are generally 10-20 levels above, with a group, teach you anything? It's like sitting in a zhen squad on nightscream island at level 85+- they can hardly do any real damage to you. You actually learn in instances that pose real threats (like TT1-3 at 75 with only one player being high enough level to actually open it and using a barb with 8k HP when drummer could 1 shot the barb).

I disagree with this.

Yes, of course there are going to be idiots. You shouldn't have to teach a sin to use Rib Strike every 30 seconds. But BH is not to blame for this. If anything, blame goes to the "bored" high levels who are called in to hold their faction-mates' hands through BH29 and BH39 (and even 51 in some cases)... and to the people who are not interested in real gameplay and are just trying to powerlevel a sin or an APS BM for god knows what purpose... and to a general culture of "must lvl must lvl MUST LVL."

Let's agree on something, here: FBs do not prepare you for serious instance play. Why? Because you're so underleveled, you'd get slaughtered without your high lvl buddies who are (or used to be, anyway) only there for the rep. But launching them straight into TT isn't a painless transition. Sure they learn not to be cocky after a dozen deaths or so, but they can learn the same lessons in BH too, if they're willing to learn at all. Just because the School of Hard Knocks works doesn't mean it's the best option.

And for the record, BHs do pose some danger, particularly in squads who are still learning. Soloing any single mob in a BH run requires you to have some understanding of wtf you're doing, or else you'll die. Cultivating aggro control and managing aoe damage from bosses are learned in BH well before they'd be learned in TT. And clerics get a lot of practice for their skills and reaction time in BH, as well (even if they occasionally see a train wreck coming and refuse to heal the stupid DD who pulled 5 mobs).

However, despite BHs being a preferred method, there are still players that do quest. Even back before BHs, it was assumed that most players did do quests other than their cultis. Even now, I still see lower levels looking for help in WC for Eyes of Krimson, Kimsa, Jewelscalen and even Stormhorn and Gargantuakong.

I agree with you on this one, though. Killquests are the heart and soul of this game. When does one really feel most connected with the game world? Here's a hint, it isn't the obscene APS Nirvana farming.

Purge - Raging Tide

I keep hoping that PWI will go the way of many other MMOs and increase the rewards of higher level quests to actually make them worthwhile doing. That would go some way to reduce the amount of BHing. For now, the only reason I do these higher level quests is because I'm something of a completist...but it's very dispiriting when you go to collect your "reward"b:sad

Xoria - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Yes, of course there are going to be idiots. You shouldn't have to teach a sin to use Rib Strike every 30 seconds. But BH is not to blame for this. If anything, blame goes to the "bored" high levels who are called in to hold their faction-mates' hands through BH29 and BH39 (and even 51 in some cases)... and to the people who are not interested in real gameplay and are just trying to powerlevel a sin or an APS BM for god knows what purpose... and to a general culture of "must lvl must lvl MUST LVL."

Let's agree on something, here: FBs do not prepare you for serious instance play. Why? Because you're so underleveled, you'd get slaughtered without your high lvl buddies who are (or used to be, anyway) only there for the rep. But launching them straight into TT isn't a painless transition. Sure they learn not to be cocky after a dozen deaths or so, but they can learn the same lessons in BH too, if they're willing to learn at all. Just because the School of Hard Knocks works doesn't mean it's the best option.

I disagree. Rewind back to late October 2008. FB29's Qingzi slaughtered our squad of level 31 barb, 29 wizard, 29 cleric (me~), 36 cleric, 32 veno and 33 bm. We had to have died 4 times before we got it right. Why? At that time, we were around the top level at the time then, so we were FORCED to do it without a 'high level's help.' Yeah, we got salughtered, but we learned and overcame it.

Same thing for FB39's Farren- the first AoE monster you encounter (that you can't just hover above out of range). The first place a cleric should have learned where max distance is and especially where a veno was expected to know how to expertly pull a monster AND CATCH IT THEMSELVES if a barb can't grab it ASAP.

FB51's wyvern is the first introduction to an AoE boss that also amps. Your first little warning to FB69's two annoying bosses and the incentive for clerics to level up their purify (which sadly, many did not have past 1 at that time).

Of course, there were many cocky players then too, however, unlike now where you might have a high level cleric with level 10 res or higher and lose minimal to no exp, and the fact that it actually was hard to steal aggro even off a sub- par barb, people understand damage moderation better than they do now. It's hard to make a player understand you don't want to lose exp (from a cleric's view) when they retort "just FCC your exp back." It's sickening at times, really.

Fintan - Lost City

Xoria - Sanctuary wrote: »

I disagree. Rewind back to late October 2008. FB29's Qingzi slaughtered our squad of level 31 barb, 29 wizard, 29 cleric (me~), 36 cleric, 32 veno and 33 bm. We had to have died 4 times before we got it right. Why? At that time, we were around the top level at the time then, so we were FORCED to do it without a 'high level's help.' Yeah, we got salughtered, but we learned and overcame it.

Ah, memories. I remember getting a "high level" 4x to help with my FB19 when I moved to PWI. It still wasn't the in-and-out job it is now for an FB, but it was far less painful than it could have been! b:chuckle

But yeah, 100% agreed that player focus is going the wrong way for sustainable game play. Which, once people hit a point where "ohsh**, we can't do this!" with their fancy R8 gear they got on the char they rolled a week ago for some culti quest or something (thinking new content next month?), they'll just complain the game's broken.

Myself, I level "slowly". I've done Frost once. I need to go back again to finish off the quests I have there. (I'm a quest completist too!) I BH when I'm bored or have no quests and my grind mobs suck, as a rule. But I still level faster than people who rely only on BH.

As much as "questing" sucks, it's experience in addition to what you'd be grinding. Even now, I still get the occasional quest that'll dump 200K+ exp on me. I'm sorry, but you need to show me a vid that shows you getting 200K+ exp from grind mobs at 7x, soloing, in 30-60 minutes before I consider giving up questing. And coin to tele? Almost always included in the quest rewards. Especially if you plan your turn-ins to minimize travel. Do WQ? Put off the ones in WQ places for a few hours and kill a couple birds with one stone. Then cross your fingers you get the Picture Version from WQ for more win.

Anyhow, yeah. There's many ways to play this game. Some "work" better than others. It depends on your goals. In my experience, people who quest tend to be better, more well-rounded players. On the other hand, you have people who "learn" in Frost... :P

Cleric in BH59: "stacked heals? what do you mean? and ironheart sucks. i left it at level 1." b:surrender