Should I go Demon or Sage?

Tabbycat - Harshlands

I currently have a lvl 79 la veno with herc and nix. I was checking the demon/sage skills for venos and I dont know which one I should do. My build is 1 dex 1 str and 3 mag. My vit is at 10. I plan on keeping my La build til end game.

This is what she currently has with armor on:
17 vit
90 str
90 dex
277 mag

In your opinion, which should i go for? I do use both human and werefox when i play. A few people told me to go demon but i dont know since i saw the sage skills. Which one should I go?

Thanks,

Tabbycat

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

There are many threads on this topic, feel free to search through them for more details.

Either path works well and there is no clear cut winner. It boils down to which skills you plan on getting and like the most.

Grab a pen and paper and make a column for sage and one for demon. For each skill, put a tally in the column that you like better for that skill. Add them all up at the end and whichever has the most is the path you should take.

Feel free to not add a tally on either side for a skill if you think it's not reasonable for you to acquire it.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

In ten levels time, when you hit 89...

Yes. Yes you should.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In ten levels time, when you hit 89...

Yes. Yes you should.

that's adorable

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

As Mauntille said do a tally, read the descriptions of the skills. When you're making your tally think about which skill works best with your play style. Everyone's play style is different and thus their reasons for picking sage or demon are different. Don't do what other people tell you. Make an informed decision, otherwise you might end up to be one unhappy person.

Synta - Dreamweaver

flip a coin.


it really doesn't matter with venos! You get more damage from demon spark, but sage fox & melee mastery give more damage, etc etc - you can argue about it all day!
When you look at skills, look at prices. No point saying you'll go sage for the soul degen if you can't afford the 40m or whatever it is to buy it

You've 10 levels to decide, enjoy the game b:pleased

sleepcat

Synta - Dreamweaver wrote: »

flip a coin.


it really doesn't matter with venos! You get more damage from demon spark

If you're a melee Veno anyways.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

There's no reason to not look ahead, especially from level 79 on. IMO it's certainly better than getting to 89 and going "omg wat skillz nao?!?"

@sleep: I so want to cuddle your siggy right now.

Aniella - Harshlands

I have play both sage/demon veno and tried out all skils books.

Demon: As pure mag, it will be perfect for pking. cuz the books are good. best books is Demonironwood and purge/amfy,Nova,fox form(Get faster speed and take off debuff skills, when u change in fox.),brable. Demon make u hit harder w spark.

Sage: Easier get Chi, Good books are Amfy/Purge(Purge in demon and sage have same efect. aoe debuff")Fox form give more def. good if pet die and a boss is after u LOl"
Also soul di..what the skills are called, at sage verson it take down 30% hp, Work on bosses so Worth 2 have for pve players. that do alot tts.

Both are good anyway. just books give diff reffects.. and if u not plan 2 buy special books..then its same shi1t.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Aniella - Harshlands wrote: »

I have play both sage/demon veno and tried out all skils books.

Demon: As pure mag, it will be perfect for pking. cuz the books are good. best books is Demonironwood and purge/amfy,Nova,fox form(Get faster speed and take off debuff skills, when u change in fox.),brable. Demon make u hit harder w spark.

Sage: Easier get Chi, Good books are Amfy/Purge(Purge in demon and sage have same efect. aoe debuff")Fox form give more def. good if pet die and a boss is after u LOl"
Also soul di..what the skills are called, at sage verson it take down 30% hp, Work on bosses so Worth 2 have for pve players. that do alot tts.

Both are good anyway. just books give diff reffects.. and if u not plan 2 buy special books..then its same shi1t.

I believe you're talking about Summer Sprint in the red portion. Demon version makes you immune to movement debuffs for a short period of time. Sage is a purify.

Orange: Soul Degeneration. And I thought it was only 20%. I'd still kill for that ability though. >.<

For sparks:
Magic Damage: sage > demon
Melee Damage: demon > sage
Both are good. Pick your poison.

http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php

Tabbycat - Harshlands

I mainly do mag damage so i assume sage is best but i heard demon is good too..hrm this is hard. and ur right i have ten lvls to decide. so i supoose its tally time...

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

FWIW, I'm demon and primarily a wood wizard although I do dabble in fox when the mood suits me. Not doing enough magic damage has yet to be an issue.

Don't just look at the spark; consider what spells you use and their effects. For example, Demon Venomous give a 30% reduction of wood defense (great for all your spells and for barb's poison fang). Sage Ironwood, on the otherhand, reduces p.def by 40% everytime (great for pet attacks, fox attacks, and melee friends).

When you're making your tally, you may want to put two ticks for a spell if it has a very big draw for you.

LShattered - Heavens Tear

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

FWIW, I'm demon and primarily a wood wizard although I do dabble in fox when the mood suits me. Not doing enough magic damage has yet to be an issue.

Don't just look at the spark; consider what spells you use and their effects. For example, Demon Venomous give a 30% reduction of wood defense (great for all your spells and for barb's poison fang). Sage Ironwood, on the otherhand, reduces p.def by 40% everytime (great for pet attacks, fox attacks, and melee friends).

When you're making your tally, you may want to put two ticks for a spell if it has a very big draw for you.

I went sage for the foxform bonus, the chi from venomous and ironwood, because I knew that I wouldn't ever get more then 3-4 level 11 skills at all. If you plan on getting them all, demon parasitic nova is yummy.b:avoid

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

As a rule of thumb - demon gives better stuff, but less often. Sage gives more constant stuff. That's a VERY great approximation though.

Of the skills you use every day:
Sage venomous gives more chi, and is a big part of our 'chi is easy' thing.
Sage ironwood gives a good debuff, and lasts longer.
Sage lucky-scarb gives a perfect 100% chance to stun.
Sage amplify damage gives a huge massive debuff, best in the game.
Sage Soul Degeneration is indeed a max-hp debuff.

On the bad side? Bramble lasts a bit longer, summer-sprint removes debuffs, but not debuffs that would stpo you casting it, so basically only removes ones you don't care about, purge gets an aoe too small to be of any use. Leech and Consume-spirit get 'do not miss' which, um, I wasn't even aware that they ever did anyway.

(They all do more damage too, of course)

Basically - all the sage skills are a bit better than their level10.


Demon however, oh demon:
Demon ironwood gets a *chance* of being a full 100% armourbreak, at the cost of otherwise doing nothing.
Demon lucky-scarab has a better cooldown, but can still fail to stun.
Demon venomous has a reduce-wood-def, powering up other veno skills.
Demon amplify lasts long (which is an odd reversal) but isn't as good.
Demon bramble returns more damage.

But.. demon soul degeneration reduces evasion. Woo.


So.. you pays your money and you takes your choice. FWIW, more venos locally seem to go demon, but amp+souldegen was the tiebreak for me, and I went sage.

Hell_rayzer - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

As a rule of thumb - demon gives better stuff, but less often. Sage gives more constant stuff. That's a VERY great approximation though.

Of the skills you use every day:
Sage venomous gives more chi, and is a big part of our 'chi is easy' thing.
Sage ironwood gives a good debuff, and lasts longer.
Sage lucky-scarb gives a perfect 100% chance to stun.
Sage amplify damage gives a huge massive debuff, best in the game.
Sage Soul Degeneration is indeed a max-hp debuff.

On the bad side? Bramble lasts a bit longer, summer-sprint removes debuffs, but not debuffs that would stpo you casting it, so basically only removes ones you don't care about, purge gets an aoe too small to be of any use. Leech and Consume-spirit get 'do not miss' which, um, I wasn't even aware that they ever did anyway.

(They all do more damage too, of course)

Basically - all the sage skills are a bit better than their level10.


Demon however, oh demon:
Demon ironwood gets a *chance* of being a full 100% armourbreak, at the cost of otherwise doing nothing.
Demon lucky-scarab has a better cooldown, but can still fail to stun.
Demon venomous has a reduce-wood-def, powering up other veno skills.
Demon amplify lasts long (which is an odd reversal) but isn't as good.
Demon bramble returns more damage.

But.. demon soul degeneration reduces evasion. Woo.


So.. you pays your money and you takes your choice. FWIW, more venos locally seem to go demon, but amp+souldegen was the tiebreak for me, and I went sage.

NOooooo ur making sage skills more expensive!!! Go DEMON guys!! b:bye

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

{Good comparison of skills - snipped}

One thing you left out - durations in general. Sage lasts longer and demon gets shorter cooldowns.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

But.. demon soul degeneration reduces evasion. Woo.

Not all skills have to be good! (Veno) Swimming Mastery, Thunderball, Vicious Arrow...

But reduced evasion helps if your accuracy sucks. Try it in combo with armor break - it's fun.

That said, I think I've used my D. SD twice? maybe three times? As filler. I needed to slow down. At the time, burning mp in the process felt like the thing to do.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

FWIW, more venos locally seem to go demon

Do you mean on the forums? O.o
I see more sage venos than us demons here.

Hell_rayzer - Heavens Tear wrote: »

NOooooo ur making sage skills more expensive!!! Go DEMON guys!! b:bye

More sage venos doesn't necessarily mean more expensive sage veno skills. It can mean the opposite. More sage venos lead to more sage veno books being made leading to more books on the market driving prices down.

Doesn't always work that way, but food for thought. b:cute

LShattered - Heavens Tear

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

One thing you left out - durations in general. Sage lasts longer and demon gets shorter cooldowns.



Not all skills have to be good! (Veno) Swimming Mastery, Thunderball, Vicious Arrow...

But reduced evasion helps if your accuracy sucks. Try it in combo with armor break - it's fun.

That said, I think I've used my D. SD twice? maybe three times? As filler. I needed to slow down. At the time, burning mp in the process felt like the thing to do.



Do you mean on the forums? O.o
I see more sage venos than us demons here.



More sage venos doesn't necessarily mean more expensive sage veno skills. It can mean the opposite. More sage venos lead to more sage veno books being made leading to more books on the market driving prices down.

Doesn't always work that way, but food for thought. b:cute

Yeah...I tend to see more sage venos ingame then demon. Maybe that's just me though.

Andromaka - Heavens Tear

Demon also gets an awesome skill called Parasitic Nova which beside the 67% chance to seal enemies also amps their dmg taken. Acts like a "mini HF" which is very usefull in RB/Nirvana/TT.
Why i wouldnt ever switch to sage?
1. Demon fox form, makes us fastest runners.
2. Demon Summer Sprint, saves me from using anti-stun apoth in TW when running pass towers (therefore im saving on Apoth CD so i can use sutra or chi ones)
3. Demon bramble returns 75% dmg
4. Pro debuffer if you combine demon amp + nova + extreme poison (veno+bm+sin 3 in 1 b:chuckle) if ironwood lands too => all 5 APSers will love you xD

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Might be server specific, or even faction specific. But most of the veno's I know in game went demon.

Sage amp damage costs a FORTUNE. But is easily the best skill ever.

Ok - I used a nice little comparison chart, which seems to be no longer online - here's the google cache though:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LXvO4uTXPjMJ:placid.wikidot.com/venomancer-sage-vs-demon+venomancer+sage+demon+skills&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&source=www.google.co.uk

I just coloured in the ones I liked, and worked out which side had more.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

LOL. It depends on what you mean by a fortune. I managed to sell and extra demon nova for 50 mil.

Feel kinda bad...it's not really worth that much, tbh...

SeaStorm - Heavens Tear

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I believe you're talking about Summer Sprint in the red portion. Demon version makes you immune to movement debuffs for a short period of time. Sage is a purify.

Orange: Soul Degeneration. And I thought it was only 20%. I'd still kill for that ability though. >.<

For sparks:
Magic Damage: sage > demon
Melee Damage: demon > sage
Both are good. Pick your poison.

http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php

Sage Soul Degeneration is a 20% hp debuff....the 30% sage skill is amplify damage. TBH getting soul degeneration cost me less than 10 mil....since I made it from the cube of fate pages.