Sage/Demon Question

Nepttys - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm still not of the proper level, but I do have the experience to decide my cultivation way before I hit 89. And I'm going Sage.

I have quite a few reasons why, some small, some bigger. When I first looked at Sage and Demon skills, my first reason for wanting Sage was permanent Wolf Emblem. Not needing to rebuff it once a while sounds great, especially since it effectively adds a few crit%. For example, at 24% crit, the Sage Wolf Emblem is equal to having 28.8% crit. Of course, the same is, on average, true for Demon Wolf Emblem, but it's just not quite the same in practice.

When I looked more into it, I found a few interesting skills. I doubt that I'll ever reach 4-5 APS, so I figured I'll end up being more useful by using Subsea whenever possible. From there, I got another reason: Sage Subsea is great. Of course, over the same time period, Demon Subsea is equal or better, but that's just the point: it requires more time to get the same effect, so Sage Subsea is "faster". Also, Sage Power Dash is clearly superior to the Demon version. Sage Wolf Emblem + Sage Subsea + 40% Crit = Effectively 100% Crit for 8 seconds.

Other than that, I found that Tidal Protection and Focused Mind had much better Sage versions.

Of course, there are a few good Demon skills, assuming that you ever get to use them. For example, Demon Rising Dragon Strike might help you spark more often and the heal on Inner Harmony sounds pretty cool.

In my case, I already have a Demon Archer, so if I wanted to go for APS, I would rather use the Archer.

Also, if you count Sage Wolf Emblem into the crit of a Sage, they actually ALWAYS get more crit% than Demons. So the whole discussion about who has the better mastery is pointless as Sage wins by default.

OMG IS THIS GUY A COMPLETE IDIOT OR SOMETING? b:shocked AT LV 83 U HAVENT SEEN THAT WOLF EMBELM DONT ADD CRIT %, IT JUST ADDS CRIT % DAMAGE.

EXAMPLE... NORMAL CRIT DAMAGE IS 200%, WITH LV 10 UR CRIT DAMAGE WILL GO UP TO 230%, SO IF U HAVE LIKE 22% CRIT CHANCE IT GONT GO UP! ITS JUST THE CRIT % DAMAGEb:angry

OMG ORACLES AND HYPERS WHAT THE HELL U DOPING TO THIS PERFECT WORD,
b:cry IVE SEEN SINS THAT DONT KNOW HOW TO PORT TO SHADES b:cry

Okeano - Harshlands

Nepttys - Lost City wrote: »

OMG IS THIS GUY A COMPLETE IDIOT OR SOMETING? b:shocked AT LV 83 U HAVENT SEEN THAT WOLF EMBELM DONT ADD CRIT %, IT JUST ADDS CRIT % DAMAGE.

EXAMPLE... NORMAL CRIT DAMAGE IS 200%, WITH LV 10 UR CRIT DAMAGE WILL GO UP TO 230%, SO IF U HAVE LIKE 22% CRIT CHANCE IT GONT GO UP! ITS JUST THE CRIT % DAMAGEb:angry

OMG ORACLES AND HYPERS WHAT THE HELL U DOPING TO THIS PERFECT WORD,
b:cry IVE SEEN SINS THAT DONT KNOW HOW TO PORT TO SHADES b:cry

Or you need to get glasses and learn to read O_o. "effectively adds a few crit%"

Nepttys - Lost City

okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

or You Need To Get Glasses And Learn To Read O_o. "effectively Adds A Few Crit%"

And Thats Ur Problem, It Dont Adds Any Few Crit % God Dammit, It Just Adds Crit Damage %...

Crit Damage Istnt = To Crit %

S-t-u-p-i-d

Korrok - Harshlands

Nepttys - Lost City wrote: »

And Thats Ur Problem, It Dont Adds Any Few Crit % God Dammit, It Just Adds Crit Damage %...

Crit Damage Istnt = To Crit %

S-t-u-p-i-d

I think my brain just exploded at the stupidity of this post.

Is it really that hard to understand? lol

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Nepttys - Lost City wrote: »

OMG IS THIS GUY A COMPLETE IDIOT OR SOMETING? b:shocked AT LV 83 U HAVENT SEEN THAT WOLF EMBELM DONT ADD CRIT %, IT JUST ADDS CRIT % DAMAGE.

EXAMPLE... NORMAL CRIT DAMAGE IS 200%, WITH LV 10 UR CRIT DAMAGE WILL GO UP TO 230%, SO IF U HAVE LIKE 22% CRIT CHANCE IT GONT GO UP! ITS JUST THE CRIT % DAMAGEb:angry

It changes your Rage Damage, e.g. the amount of damage you do when you crit.

With 20% crit, your average damage looks like this:
80 hits of 100% damage
20 hits of 200% damage
On average: 0.8 + 0.4 = 1.2 = 1 + crit%

With Wolf Emblem, it looks like this:
80 hits of 100% damage
20 hits of 220% damage
On average: 0.8 + 0.2 * 2.2 = 0.8 + 0.44 = 1.24

So, here Wolf Emblem gave us a total of 4% more crit, effectively.

It doesn't actually give you 4% crit, but when you average your results, that's what you get.

Nepttys - Lost City

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

It changes your Rage Damage, e.g. the amount of damage you do when you crit.

With 20% crit, your average damage looks like this:
80 hits of 100% damage
20 hits of 200% damage
On average: 0.8 + 0.4 = 1.2 = 1 + crit%

With Wolf Emblem, it looks like this:
80 hits of 100% damage
20 hits of 220% damage
On average: 0.8 + 0.2 * 2.2 = 0.8 + 0.44 = 1.24

So, here Wolf Emblem gave us a total of 4% more crit, effectively.

It doesn't actually give you 4% crit, but when you average your results, that's what you get.

well its looks nice on paper but... u didnt add the 2% crit demon has as plain + +40% rage damage...
on my eyes uve compared a non sage/demon unbuffed sin, with a sage buffed sin, with by default ur sage has a wooping advantage..

Okeano - Harshlands

Nepttys - Lost City wrote: »

well its looks nice on paper but... u didnt add the 2% crit demon has as plain + +40% rage damage...
on my eyes uve compared a non sage/demon unbuffed sin, with a sage buffed sin, with by default ur sage has a wooping advantage..

It wasn't about demon or sage, "true for Demon Wolf Emblem, but it's just not quite the same in practice", it was about you not able to read. No one says it directly adds crit %. The fact that Emblem doesn't add crit was figure out long before your Sin even existed. b:bye

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Nepttys - Lost City wrote: »

well its looks nice on paper but... u didnt add the 2% crit demon has as plain + +40% rage damage...
on my eyes uve compared a non sage/demon unbuffed sin, with a sage buffed sin, with by default ur sage has a wooping advantage..

It never was about Demon or Sage, but if you want to go there:

Demon:
22% crit: 1.22 multiplier
Sage:
20% crit, 20% Wolf Emblem: 1.24 multiplier
Effectively, Sage gets 1.6% more damage here

Sage still wins. If that's what you want to see.

And actually, if you use a higher crit%, Sage just gets more and more ahead, because:
1. Demon only gets a fixed +2%, so it's effectiveness decreases with more crit%.
2. Sage gets a bonus that is 0.2*crit%, so it's effectiveness increases with more crit%.

For example, with 40% base crit, the numbers would be:
Demon: 1.42 multiplier
Sage: 1.48 multiplier
Effective, Sage gets ~4.2% more damage here

The effectiveness of Sage Wolf Emblem gets especially awesome with high crit amounts coupled with Sage Power Dash, since it actually gives you a damage multiplier that would be no different from having 100% crit.

Of course, you could argue that Demon Wolf Emblem averages to the exactly same bonus, but you have to consider that it's not actually how it happens in reality. For example, a boss might die during the time your Demon Wolf Emblem isn't on, in which case it's not actually the same average. And the average only holds true if you actually keep yourself buffed with Demon Wolf Emblem at all times, which in itself is rather unlikely.

Firefeng - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And the average only holds true if you actually keep yourself buffed with Demon Wolf Emblem at all times, which in itself is rather unlikely.

Don't need to keep it up at all times, just when you're fighting something, which isn't all that difficult a choice to make, considering it's instant-cast and gives you 20 chi.