bb plz

ugysekell

Mauntille - Heavens Tear wrote: »

But you did also say that certain classes cannot tank.

They can't. But we are talking about lower BHs here. *pokes first post* And that means **** gear and inexperienced players (except for some rich alts). Things change after 80+ when people get better gear / refines. I never had a bad word about people who steal aggro in FCC or Nirvana, they are easy to heal because they don't die in 1-2 hits. :P

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

ugysekell wrote: »

They can't. But we are talking about lower BHs here. *pokes first post* And that means **** gear and inexperienced players (except for some rich alts). Things change after 80+ when people get better gear / refines. I never had a bad word about people who steal aggro in FCC or Nirvana, they are easy to heal because they don't die in 1-2 hits. :P

Some can. First post was concerning bh59, the dungeon I was talking about. Although I will agree that anything lower than that doesn't need BB and most DD classes most likely can't tank.

I'll conceed that rich alts can make a difference, but to be honest, I see more of those than I see mains in the 7X level. With sins in particular, I've seen more than a few able to tank 59, rich alt or not.

My issue is that in some cases there's nothing wrong with BB in bh59 (if the cleric is under level 75, mana drain might be an issue, but that would be the only concern). If a DD wants to tank under BB, instead of telling them "no you can't", you could:

- tell them you aren't comfortable with it and that they need to nerf their damage
- put up BB and say "go for it!"

If you put up BB and they die, then they have no right to complain at you and you have every right to call them a noob/fail and laugh at them. Unless you put up BB right next to the boss you won't get hit physically and if a magic attack can kill a cleric under BB in the 7Xs, sorry, but your cleric is fail. Point being, the cleric has nothing to lose for BBing at a boss except for what? Mana? There's HY pots for level 75 and higher which are dirt cheap. 2 sparks? Those are effectively free and not having sparks won't hinder gameplay much if at all.

If they don't die, boss is dead and who cares?

The use of BB should be dependent upon the squad, not the instance.

--

I guess I should also mention that it's the DD/potential tank's responsibility to make sure that BB is up before trying to tank something that they need BB for. If BB isn't up and they need it to tank, trying to tank would in fact, make them an idiot.

And yes, controlling your damage output when you can't tank and don't want to pull aggro is important. Removing rings/blessing/weapon/-int gear all help.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Look, this isn't about BB at a boss, it's about the tank/main DD's asking for BB due to there being too many mobs on the party, and the cleric was either not keeping up with the heals, or the party's gear was not up to handling the incoming attacks.

If you see 5 of the members in your party getting low on health, and they are all fighting separate battles, you CANNOT heal them all. At 70-80, I seriously doubt you have enough -channeling gear to make Chromatic instant.

Blue Bubble is HELL on mana. But you know what, it's better than looking like a complete idiot because you focused on healing one person with level 4 Ironheart and caused a squadwipe, had to release, run back in, solo the mobs one at a time, then rez your party.

If you are having serious trouble keeping a tank healed frequently, you SERIOUSLY need to re-examine your build. Do you have a disproportionately high amount of magic? When you de-equip your gear, how much vit do you have? Do you have just enough Str and Dex for your armor and weapon? If you have like 100 vit, you're doing it wrong. That's endgame Vit levels, not something you should have at level 70.

Does your gear completely suck? Vendor trash is cheap, but it gives very basic stats. And you need to have a Purple weapon, TT weapon, or Legendary, or your heals are going to suck.

Are your Heals leveled? MAX OUT YOUR FREAKING HEALS. Get BB. Take or leave RB, it's not NECESSARY, but nice to have. I will tell you right now, I saved a TON of magic doing TT runs with a 100 sin just by having lvl 10 IH. I could hit him with IH twice and DD, IH twice, DD. IH 9, I was having to hit him 4-5 times, and not DD, because the healing just didn't stack.

On my Cleric, I focused on IH and Wellspring, both level 10. Plume Shot is 10. My buffs are maxed, and all 4 squad buffs. I maxed Great Cyclone. And I've invested a small amount into Tempest. And those are my skills. I heal and DD. I will get the seals when I start doing FCC.

And when I run with a barb that has 30K hp, I can actually make a dent in their HP when they're taking damage.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Blue Bubble is HELL on mana. But you know what, it's better than looking like a complete idiot because you focused on healing one person with level 4 Ironheart and caused a squadwipe, had to release, run back in, solo the mobs one at a time, then rez your party.

BB actually isn't that bad on mana. It's 100 mana a second. Stacking level 10 IH is 77 mana a second, at least, and increases more with channeling gear. Good channeling gear and stacking IH means it can be more expensive. Lvl 11 IH is at least 125 mana a second, before channeling gear. End game clerics can easily burn 160 mana a second stacking IH. BB mana costs are very similar to stacking IH, and sometimes better.

If you are having serious trouble keeping a tank healed frequently, you SERIOUSLY need to re-examine your build. Do you have a disproportionately high amount of magic? When you de-equip your gear, how much vit do you have? Do you have just enough Str and Dex for your armor and weapon? If you have like 100 vit, you're doing it wrong. That's endgame Vit levels, not something you should have at level 70.

Umm, actually unless your endgame involves serious pk you try to stat OUT your vitality. Vit is an earlier game thing that late game refines and shards replace.

On my Cleric, I focused on IH and Wellspring, both level 10. Plume Shot is 10. My buffs are maxed, and all 4 squad buffs. I maxed Great Cyclone. And I've invested a small amount into Tempest. And those are my skills. I heal and DD. I will get the seals when I start doing FCC.

I my seals. I agree heal and buffs are the most important but I'd rather have good seals early because when mobs die quicker I have to waste less mana on heals. Not to mention I get more dmg from sealing a mob than from leveling up a DD skill. If I seal a boss and my sin grabs aggro, they survive better with bp...

_Pale - Sanctuary wrote: »

Mostly in the last year people started asking more and more for BB.
IH spam is cheaper then BB; just pop an apo pot ( mp regen) and you got 10 min of IH spam without need for any other pot. If you use BB, you'll need to keep potting to keep BB up.

That same mp regen apo will keep your bb up, too. See above comment on IH and bb mana costs. They're basically the same, and sometimes bb can be cheaper.

If a DD can tank, let them. Let the barb devour instead of spam FR and it knocks 10 attack levels off the bosses and 50% defense reduction. If the barbs devouring instead of tanking you don't need to seal and reduce your own defenses. If the barb devours and people have paint that 50% def reduction turns into about 25% more hp back from bloodpaint.

Most importantly, things die quicker. But try and game-plan it. Don't let a DDer surprise you by grabbing aggro. Make them declare "I'll tank" from the start, or you declare "I heal the tank. That's the barb. I will not heal aggro stealers at the cost of the barb possibly dieing."

If the DD can't tank but also can't watch their aggro, two things should happen. One, if its a sin, they better be keeping up Rib strike and not just spamming damage. Rib strike will help the barb and cleric, but it may save them too if they are stealing aggro. Second, if my DDs can't damage modify, I let their time being dead do it for them. No reason to rez them till the barb has aggro nice and set.

_Pale - Sanctuary

I'm with Sarrafeline on this one.
Not a lot of people walk around with demon / sage IH, unless you have 23 million or more to spend. the apo mp regen pots don't keep BB up, trust me on this. The mp dwindels down slowly and how long you can keep it up depends on the amount of MP you have to begin with. Furthermore, it keeps using mana just to stay up, even when others go afk, do less damage, suddenly remember they forgot to pick up a quest... etc.
You need quite a lot of channeling gear to make you burn 33% more mana. If you have that kind of money to spend on gear, you don't really care what you spend on mana anyway. BB is definately cheaper then Chromatic Healing Beam but mostly not compared to IH.

pure mag, no vit build discussion has been discussed elsewhere, no point in a redo of those threads, but as a summary: Vit is not something you need at lower levels. You can pretty much heal yourself and drop mobs before they come close. pure mag no vit builds have a problem with drawing aggro starting around lvl 80 ( due to the high mag attacck) and staying alive at higher level instances. Most clerics put some stats in vit, because sharding and refining is costly and the extra HP you get from another shard or extra refining level is not worth it until endgear. 50 Points in vit wil get you 500 hp and with a barb buf even a bit more which can make the difference in surviving an AOE hit or giving the time to put up plume shell/ pot/ use genie/ heal or whatever. most clerics would cap their vit at something like 50, some going up to 100

If other players can tank, other then a barb or BM or sin, no problem... I would incourage anyone to give it a go as long as they know their own limits and those of the squad. This is where the problems start because most people overestimate what they can do themselves and what the squad can or will do or what they are comfortable doing.

The problem is often that everyone says they can tank, but can't

Sereneai - Dreamweaver

xixiri wrote: »

I told them to play their class right - I told the Barb to use his aggro skills often and told the DDs to watch their attacks. And guess what it worked

I think this is really the root of the problem here. If everyone uses the skills of their class to CONTRIBUTE to the squad, instead of trying to show off how strong they are, the instance runs smooth as old whiskey, few or no deaths, no problems. But people don't WANT to work as a team. I've found that sins especially often work poorly in a squad, but I've found quite a number of all the other classes that fail at squadding. Everyone wants the spotlight it seems, and that's not how it should work.

Barb(or heavy BM) (or whoever is tanking) should tank, and spam aggro skills (where applicable).

Cleric should heal/puri/DD/whatever as HE/SHE feels fit for that squad/instance.

Venos should pull mobs out when needed to help the squad. the rest of the squad should not rush in while shes doing it (im talking to YOU, sins/fist BMs, since you're the worst offenders)

DDs should debuff (ribstrike/subsea/HF/amp/whatever) as they can/feel best doing, and deal damage (duh) while trying not to steal the tank's aggro. you'll know quickly how fast you steal aggro within a few minutes: adjust accordingly. take off rings, use less powerful spells/attacks, whatever, but your job is to kill things without throwing a wrench into the mix.


Obviously, this isn't consistent across the board, since the makeup of the squad and their gearing and skill at their class, but everyone should still know how to manage their class effectively in a squad, and adapt for who is with them. Sadly, most seem not to nowadays.

I've found that if you have a skilled cleric, the best thing you can do is leave them alone. They KNOW how to do their job, don't mess with them unless there's some real reason to...in which case, don't order them around, ask them nicely and discuss as a squad how this is gonna work. A squad is a TEAM, people.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

lvl10 IH is 223mana every 2 sec so 111m/s
therefore, an IH spam, even without -chan gear, will need more mana than BB

however
a)due to lag etc sometimes the cleric doesnt completely spam IH
b)BB forces u in battle mode and therefore reduces ur mp regen by half.
if your mp regen is higher than 30 (using apo) then IH is cheaper

on the other hand if the cleric uses seals/DDs while IH he is again in battle mode
seals cost more than IH but attacks are cheaper.
oh, and ofc there is the bonus mana from sparking although clerics dont spark that often.

one other point is that mana herbs are too cheap, even cheaper than mpregen powders.
they are so cheap that talking about mana costs is kinda pointless xd

_Pale - Sanctuary

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

lvl10 IH is 223mana every 2 sec so 111m/s

I think it's 229 mana every 3 sec ( 1 sec cast, 1 sec channel, 1 sec cooldown), about 77 mana a sec. concentrate orb gives you 100 mana / s. IH and pop a concentrate orb and you slowly see your MP go up to the max and stay there, despite spamming IH. I think Sakubatou got it right calculating the mana usage, lag isn't really causing it. Herbs are not that cheap on our server. Mana from tokens is cheaper, but when gathering herbs yourself it's useful for spam healing and ofcourse costs you nothing but time.

IH + DD costs mostly more then BB, seals don't use that much mana because venos and other DD's don't like our seals to overwrite theirs, and clerics are often told not to use them. Attack and IH costs you more, but is still cheaper then BB and probably more useful.

Sereneai - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I think this is really the root of the problem here. If everyone uses the skills of their class to CONTRIBUTE to the squad, instead of trying to show off how strong they are, the instance runs smooth as old whiskey, few or no deaths, no problems. But people don't WANT to work as a team. I've found that sins especially often work poorly in a squad, but I've found quite a number of all the other classes that fail at squadding. Everyone wants the spotlight it seems, and that's not how it should work.

Barb(or heavy BM) (or whoever is tanking) should tank, and spam aggro skills (where applicable).

Cleric should heal/puri/DD/whatever as HE/SHE feels fit for that squad/instance.

Venos should pull mobs out when needed to help the squad. the rest of the squad should not rush in while shes doing it (im talking to YOU, sins/fist BMs, since you're the worst offenders)

DDs should debuff (ribstrike/subsea/HF/amp/whatever) as they can/feel best doing, and deal damage (duh) while trying not to steal the tank's aggro. you'll know quickly how fast you steal aggro within a few minutes: adjust accordingly. take off rings, use less powerful spells/attacks, whatever, but your job is to kill things without throwing a wrench into the mix.


Obviously, this isn't consistent across the board, since the makeup of the squad and their gearing and skill at their class, but everyone should still know how to manage their class effectively in a squad, and adapt for who is with them. Sadly, most seem not to nowadays.

I've found that if you have a skilled cleric, the best thing you can do is leave them alone. They KNOW how to do their job, don't mess with them unless there's some real reason to...in which case, don't order them around, ask them nicely and discuss as a squad how this is gonna work. A squad is a TEAM, people.

^
|

This

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Sakubatou - Sanctuary wrote: »

BB actually isn't that bad on mana. It's 100 mana a second. Stacking level 10 IH is 77 mana a second, at least, and increases more with channeling gear. Good channeling gear and stacking IH means it can be more expensive. Lvl 11 IH is at least 125 mana a second, before channeling gear. End game clerics can easily burn 160 mana a second stacking IH. BB mana costs are very similar to stacking IH, and sometimes better.

But BB gives you combat regen where you can have non-combat regen with ironheart.

And clerics can have rather decent non-combat regen -- if they are in a situation where they can pace their ironhearts, they might be able to keep it going just off their mana regen.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

But BB gives you combat regen where you can have non-combat regen with ironheart.

And clerics can have rather decent non-combat regen -- if they are in a situation where they can pace their ironhearts, they might be able to keep it going just off their mana regen.

Thought of pointing this out, too. But if I'm IHing I'm usually sealing and attacking when I can, as most good clerics are. So for alot of us, both are in combat mode and its a non factor.

And its been discussed, but mp food used to be about 3-4 times more expensive and that's when people worried about mp costs. I know the original poster is around level 70 so mp pots can take a hefty toll, but lvls 75+ need to pay about 650 coins per mp food which gives you 5k mp. Count in regen thats about an mp food a minute to keep it permanently up. 650 coins per minute of bb is nothing.

MBz_i_NL - Sanctuary

_Pale - Sanctuary wrote: »

Mostly in the last year people started asking more and more for BB.
IH spam is cheaper then BB; just pop an apo pot ( mp regen) and you got 10 min of IH spam without need for any other pot. If you use BB, you'll need to keep potting to keep BB up.
Clerics would use all their skills before, now they are requested to BB at lower and lower lvl, even in instances where they wouldn't have had BB in their arsenal before ( FB/ bh 51 and even higher clerics helping in bh 29) and they agree to this request under pressure or because they don't know any better then that this is their best skill.

In the end everyone loses because the clerics won't know what they are capable of doing and the squad will never learn how to play together as a team. When the devs think up a boss where you need to work together, these squads mostly can't ( or don't want to) do it and need to resort to OP measures.

The speed at which a boss drops because DD's go "all out" at lower levels doesn't really make runs go that much faster. If the runs need to go faster: be on time, don't go afk, don't go to town to "hand in bh " and fly back... etc. When a DD dies his contributing damage is zero, when the cleric is in BB and can't rez, the contributing damage from that DD remains zero.

BB is a great skill, and is attractive for lower level clerics because it protects the cleric from blame ( "I did my job, BB was up"). That Blue Ball gives a lot of peace of mind to everyone in squad, even if it's not the best heal in every circumstance or the best protection for the squad in every case.
Depending on the squad, sometimes BB is the way to go. In some cases it's neccessary and sometimes not. It's sometimes basically an acknowledgement to the squad that failure is imminent ( and should be percieved as such ) .

If we keep telling archers everytime where and when to sharptooth and barrage, barbs when to lure, flesh ream and roar or to invoke, when to run and when not to, sins when to use bloodpaint, venos when to purge and amplify and use lending hand, BM's when to use myriad , etc... They would most likely suggest you switch to their class if you know so much, and I think they would be right. I think the same thing applies for clerics who are being told what to do though. Anyone can roll a cleric and play it as their main.

The main reason people ask for clerics to BB at lower levels is because they want to go on autopilot themselves and do not really care about managing aggro or they just don't trust the clerics...

P.S. setting up at the right spot and the casting/channeling time to put up BB, will sometimes kill DD's and tanks faster then IH on the tank.

sooooooooooooo true.

im a lvl78 cleric atm, doing Cayeon's pvp build but still can heal bh59 with IH as my only heal with ease. All thats needed is some teamwork and communication. when ppl say BB, and i tell them i don't even have BB they tend to go nuts and calling me this n that lol. then when i duel them, they get fried and realise clerics got more skills than just BB... seriously every1 things they know how to play cleric, yet all most ppl know about cleric is "max rez & BB".

ps: dun start flaming me now for needing BB later on, still deceiding on getting it in the 80s or not, don't try to convince me, i was stubborn for not getting it so far, i might be stubborn for not getting it at all lol. rolling the hard way is a nice challenge :P

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

As a DD, damage modifying is the smartest thing to do most the time. Sometimes, it's just pointless. Since I was too squishy to tank Pole with a single cleric (unless they were really good, and random clerics rarely are) until upper level 80s I had to damage modify and watch my aggro. I would unequip my weapon. I would unequip my blessing. I would channel cancel for the barb. I would spark (weapon and blessingless) only to heal myself from Pole's aoe, and I'd still get aggro.

The farther you get in the game the more people can handle and so whats best is usually replaced by what is fastest but still works. For instance, barbs stop being tanks. Sins disappear to solo mobs. Clerics run past people fighting to get distance on the group and save time.

So for the clerics touting teamwork and proper group mechanics, get used to healing for less conventional situations. IH is still amazing. The barb aggroing, still good. But real teamwork is often throwing up a bb because your squadmates know they can handle tanking IF they have it. My sin couldn't tank Zimo without BB (even with IH spam) but level 100 barbs couldn't hold aggro. Those are broken mechanics of the game. So telling people to modify their damage and let the barb tank isn't really working as a team if your squadmate has suggested something and you blatently reject it.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

SinfulGuise - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not totally true. I was helping with a 59 run a couple of days ago, the cleric was 71, my charm ticked about 30 times because he would say "ill bb" and IH me instead, I thought it was to get chi, but he never did bb. On the last boss, I don't think he needed, either logged or dc'd. I'm hoping he dc'd. But he never came back so I asked a cleric from faction to come and help, she did bb on Drake without my requesting it, she did it because that was the best choice in her mind.

I can keep aggro on the bosses as long as, you give me a moment to Spark before you attack if your a sin. I say that because on Ofo, I was in middle of a spark when the sin took aggro and died. I said sorry, and made sure he was quickly revived because that was my mistake, I didn't remind him I was going to spark.

By the way, I'm 98 and cleric couldn't keep me healed with IH. Yet on a fb and not bh run, the tabber was the cleric, and the 59 cleric was able to keep me alive without charm ticks.

I was glad I was charmed, otherwise the whole squad would have died, but that's too many charm ticks in my opinion.

This is coimg from a lvl 2x cleric whose never bbed.I will judge and bb if needed.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

MystiMonk - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is coimg from a lvl 2x cleric whose never bbed.I will judge and bb if needed.

i see 78 at the avatar b:avoid

AuroraLucia - Archosaur

DeadRaven - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't tell the barb what to do because I respect his knowledge and abilities to play his own character.

You must have a lot of good squads then. I've had a lot of experiences where people do not know their class. Example, a level 68 Barb was trying to tank in 1-2, he couldn't keep aggro. The Assassin (level 7x) told him to spam Flesh Ream, but the Barb was using sparks instead. I told him in whisper that he needs to spam Flesh Ream so the Assassin can attack. His reply was "it's only level 3. Is it an important skill?" Note, this Barb is in one of the factions on the TW map. I won't say which one specifically, but they are on the west side of the map, and have two territories. b:laugh

Anyways, I figured he would be decent, because he had good legendary gears, nothing was lower level than what was possible for him to use, and he had them sharded.

Point is, I never trust someone to know their class. Almost every time someone tells me they can do something which seems fishy, it turns out they can't. I know it's not because I'm a horrible Cleric. I know I am at least decent one, and I know how to play my class to keep everyone healed and occasionally save them from dying (like saving a silly Barb who runs through the hands in TT and would have died if I hadn't reacted). Anyways, I don't expect anyone to know their class unless I've squaded with them, and I don't expect them to think I know mine. They give me a suggestion or ask me to do something, I'll do it. Anything to keep the squad happy unless I know it will get me killed.

MystiMonk - Sanctuary

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i see 78 at the avatar b:avoid

That is this person Veno not Cleric.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

AuroraLucia - Archosaur wrote: »

You must have a lot of good squads then. I've had a lot of experiences where people do not know their class. Example, a level 68 Barb was trying to tank in 1-2, he couldn't keep aggro. The Assassin (level 7x) told him to spam Flesh Ream, but the Barb was using sparks instead. I told him in whisper that he needs to spam Flesh Ream so the Assassin can attack. His reply was "it's only level 3. Is it an important skill?" Note, this Barb is in one of the factions on the TW map. I won't say which one specifically, but they are on the west side of the map, and have two territories. b:laugh

Anyways, I figured he would be decent, because he had good legendary gears, nothing was lower level than what was possible for him to use, and he had them sharded.

Point is, I never trust someone to know their class. Almost every time someone tells me they can do something which seems fishy, it turns out they can't. I know it's not because I'm a horrible Cleric. I know I am at least decent one, and I know how to play my class to keep everyone healed and occasionally save them from dying (like saving a silly Barb who runs through the hands in TT and would have died if I hadn't reacted). Anyways, I don't expect anyone to know their class unless I've squaded with them, and I don't expect them to think I know mine. They give me a suggestion or ask me to do something, I'll do it. Anything to keep the squad happy unless I know it will get me killed.

b:chuckle I stopped saying I could tank BH51 on my BM. Nobody believed me, and when they did, the cleric simply didn't heal me and expected me to solo it.

So I simply will steal aggro every run from the barb, destroy my HP charm, pot supply, and gear, while helping idiots gain levels. -_____-;

Which is why I'm on the knife's edge of quitting. Too much stupidity.