Archer Or Sin for FF?
Zaw - Heavens Tear
Posts: 22 Arc User
Hey guys lately ive noticed,well ive always noticed not as many ppl are looking for Archers for DD for FF these days
so it rose the question about what would you have in a sqd? a archer for dd or a sin for dd?
lol i just wanna know an honest responce
thanks
~Zaw,HTb:chuckle
so it rose the question about what would you have in a sqd? a archer for dd or a sin for dd?
lol i just wanna know an honest responce
thanks
~Zaw,HTb:chuckle
Post edited by Zaw - Heavens Tear on
0
Comments
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I'd rather have an archer.
Barrage is awesome, and I love the speed buff ^-^ Also harpy's go down faster [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks Silvychar for the awesome sig
Characters:
waterfal - lvl 90 demon ferrari veno
Hazumi_chan - lvl 9x sage seeker0 -
Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »I'd rather have an archer.
Barrage is awesome, and I love the speed buff ^-^ Also harpy's go down faster
Fo sho bro!
But yea, archers are better .. BoA, taking down harpies, speed buffs, STA ... we are smexier than fishes ... and a lot of good things0 -
Sins are effective on single target situations. Like bosses. But they are hardly effective at all in multi target situations.
Archers in that aspect are much more effective in PvE instances all round. They have high DD, and with a little speed. with claws they can keep up fairly well. at higher end DPS and claws they can match most BMs in aggro, due to crit rate.
Although the main source of power for an Archer is his bow, this gives multiple AOE's and strong single target attacks, but DoT (Damage over time) is low compared to Claws. So depending on the squad, if high enough, i never take my claws out. do Sharp for crit, Stun in FF/FC cause Sharp nerves total EXP value. metal debuf, spark, lighting strike. Combine that with veno amp, hf, devour, magic debuff, extreme poison or subsea strike of sin, and you will be able 2 drop the boss faster with the bow, then with claws. Due 2 the insane damage output. but if the battle lasts longer then 3 mins, APS will be in more advantage.
So...
I take an Archer of a sin, due to the nature of the instance, on the bosses they are helpful, if they have APS, but in the mob pulls, sins are pretty much useless.b:victory Once you discover life is meaningless, you will see my point of view!! b:victory
Skills determine a good player, not a creditcard.b:flower0 -
Fo sho', we be nerfin da xp like kewl kidz yo.GrimReaperHC wrote: »Fo sho bro!
But yea, archers are better .. BoA, taking down harpies, speed buffs, STA ... we are smexier than fishes ... and a lot of good things
I have a 100 archer and people loved to bring her to FF. She was 5 APS the minute she hit 95 and actually knew not to STA in FF (when doing AOE either barrage only or TB then STA). Used Wingspan and KBA at appropriate times (like when dragoons were cornered to keep them there, or during mag mob pulls to the shade before Shocktrooper when mag mobs were ranged, pushing them forward into the shade).
Experience says almost every single archer in FF needs to be asked not to STA, and most of them argue it or plain ignore the request/demand/ultimatum. Unfortunately way too many archers are dumb in these regards and the effortless simplicity of aim and fire bleeds off on FF runs. A few were nice enough to let me show them after the run how their STA works. Others obviously didn't want to eat crow in front of the squad.
Also have a 100 sin.. and there's the benefit of sins taking down shades, bloodpaint, and high crit AOE's (long term AOE's aren't important in FF like they are in RB [i.e. archer gets preferential treatment over a sin in that instance], sins tend to get aggro with high spike damage w/crits + emblem but things die pretty quick too) and grouped up mobs not having a lot of HP in FF is why I would, 9 out of 10 times, take a sin over an archer.0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Fo sho', we be nerfin da xp like kewl kidz yo.
I have a 100 archer and people loved to bring her to FF. She was 5 APS the minute she hit 95 and actually knew not to STA in FF (when doing AOE either barrage only or TB then STA). Used Wingspan and KBA at appropriate times (like when dragoons were cornered to keep them there, or during mag mob pulls to the shade before Shocktrooper when mag mobs were ranged, pushing them forward into the shade).
Experience says almost every single archer in FF needs to be asked not to STA, and most of them argue it or plain ignore the request/demand/ultimatum. Unfortunately way too many archers are dumb in these regards and the effortless simplicity of aim and fire bleeds off on FF runs. A few were nice enough to let me show them after the run how their STA works. Others obviously didn't want to eat crow in front of the squad.
Also have a 100 sin.. and there's the benefit of sins taking down shades, bloodpaint, and high crit AOE's (long term AOE's aren't important in FF like they are in RB [i.e. archer gets preferential treatment over a sin in that instance], sins tend to get aggro with high spike damage w/crits + emblem but things die pretty quick too) and grouped up mobs not having a lot of HP in FF is why I would, 9 out of 10 times, take a sin over an archer.
actually i love when archers STA lower repairs for all, clerics dont need that many pots. just because of those damn idiots who say dont do STA because Idont want to loose exp ( the nerf isnt that great compared to those Lunar Claws ). you still get more exp than grinding if u run FF.
+ if u run with a sin instead of an archer, i bet in 9 out of 10 cases u let the sin go kill the shades solo, and might rush the magic mobs ( let sin run ahead , every1 follows and sin shadow escape at shade). so what happens here u loose exp again, maybe that amount u would loose from the 6% difference to lunar claws u loose at bosses.
Furthermore i bet u only hyper twice in FF big room and dragons. there is only the boss u would loose hyper exp for archer using STA ( most archers i ran with didnt STA on dragons or all the mobs they rather Vac + Barrage there ) so name me any reason why archers shouldnt use STA ? since u dont hyper most of the bosses anyway, ddont tell me for a 6% reduction on only 1 boss0 -
That's quite the assumption you make. I turn my hypers on at the third boss and leave them on from there. Why? Because when I use my assassin I know that I alone am bringing good DPS to the squad, add in another assassin or two and the bosses die so ridiculously fast that I don't even bother pausing in between. And that's how most people I go with do it, they just leave hypers running for the whole thing.
As for the argument of Assassins not being able to AoE properly, it doesn't matter. I have a 98 assassin and a 93 archer that I stopped leveling (the archer, not the sin). Sure the archer can barage, but my 2 AoEs do more damage when using them after a triple spark than the archer would do Barraging the mobs for 10 seconds. As for the harpy issue, eh. I use the TT80 gold bow, and I can kill the harpies just as fast as the archer, if not faster. 'cause I can kill 2 in one triple spark, and right after have chi to triple again and kill any other harpies that are near.
I'm not saying that archers are useless, not at all. But I am saying that they're not half as useful as an assassin after level 90. Their DPS is laughable compared to an assassin, AoEs don't matter after that level and the speed buff is a joke, when every time you HP it disappears.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Still trying to move your cursor, eh?0 -
eyehaveyou are you ****ing drunk? Your post is difficult as hell to even comprehend. b:sad
- STA has little to no correlation to repairs in FF. You must be doing FF in the 70s for 100-250K to even matter in terms of repairs.eyehaveyou wrote: »actually i love when archers STA lower repairs for all, clerics dont need that many pots. just because of those damn idiots who say dont do STA because Idont want to loose exp ( the nerf isnt that great compared to those Lunar Claws ). you still get more exp than grinding if u run FF.
- Deicides are 10%. STA is 15% at level 10 (20% sage). STA is certainly worse, and it's needless waste of XP, unlike Deicides which randomly proc and actually are useful in FF.
- XP is greater than "grinding" in most cases, but what useful purpose is it to do an XP instance and intentionally nerf yours and the squad's XP? Great idea.
Yes.+ if u run with a sin instead of an archer, i bet in 9 out of 10 cases u let the sin go kill the shades solo,
No, rarely happens. And why should the stupid player who follows a stealthed sin into a group of mobs be catered to again?and might rush the magic mobs ( let sin run ahead , every1 follows and sin shadow escape at shade). so what happens here u loose exp again, maybe that amount u would loose from the 6% difference to lunar claws u loose at bosses.
No, actually, a good portion of people hyper before the big room too. I intentionally hyper from Styren to the shade following Messenger, for big room, then for Nix/Dragoons and through the last boss. When a smart archer nerfs XP on other bosses, 99% of the time they don't ask who is actually hypering said bosses. Great teamwork. You presume for others when they hyper or should. Bad idea.Furthermore i bet u only hyper twice in FF big room and dragons
And again, people do hyper other bosses, how about asking instead before nerfing the squad's XP? Now you see why I take archers over sins. Not only are you rather clueless but you disregard the rest of the squad. What's the chance a dumb sin runs up to sage rib strike a boss at the start? I'll take the sin 9 out of 10 times thank you.there is only the boss u would loose hyper exp for archer using STA ( most archers i ran with didnt STA on dragons or all the mobs they rather Vac + Barrage there ) so name me any reason why archers shouldnt use STA ? since u dont hyper most of the bosses anyway, ddont tell me for a 6% reduction on only 1 boss0 -
how did you get 5 aps at lvl 95?
archers are generally annoying in FF, wingspanning mobs away from melees, stunning arrow on bishops, and making them freeze the party, STAing bosses, and ranging on bishop spawing garnob "cause i do more damage at range"
STA saving repair costs is one of the dumbest things ive ever heard, you save even more on repairs if you dont run FF at all, repairs are directly proportional to xp gained. you never have to repair if you lvl to 100 using Crazy stone.
of course, an archer that knows what they're doing can be just as useful as anyone else, but face it, if your hypering frost, your not gonna be good at the instance till your in your mid 90s at the earliest anyway.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »how did you get 5 aps at lvl 95?
archers are generally annoying in FF, wingspanning mobs away from melees, stunning arrow on bishops, and making them freeze the party, STAing bosses, and ranging on bishop spawing garnob "cause i do more damage at range"
STA saving repair costs is one of the dumbest things ive ever heard, you save even more on repairs if you dont run FF at all, repairs are directly proportional to xp gained. you never have to repair if you lvl to 100 using Crazy stone.
of course, an archer that knows what they're doing can be just as useful as anyone else, but face it, if your hypering frost, your not gonna be good at the instance till your in your mid 90s at the earliest anyway.
5aps XD i asked my friend they're refering too your gear but instead of a bow they use claws/fist,make sense? lol didn really make alot to me0 -
Was a mistype and meant 4, but wondering why you were doing teles on HT like this is the end-all, be-all? Just pick the one you wanna play and don't be an STA **** in FF if you pick archer.Zaw - Heavens Tear wrote: »5aps XD i asked my friend they're refering too your gear but instead of a bow they use claws/fist,make sense? lol didn really make alot to me0 -
I didn't know that archers should not STA the bosses. I used STA on my run, but no one insisted to stop doing it. Well I guess we are learning something new every day.0
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Grim you're still a young archer, much to learn you still have, my young apprentice.
Wingspan use in FC can be done, but ONLY as a last resort to get mobs off the cleric. Its the only HP bar I keep an eye on, apart from my own.b:victory Once you discover life is meaningless, you will see my point of view!! b:victory
Skills determine a good player, not a creditcard.b:flower0 -
I hate to say this but i pick sin0
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Lets see.
At lvl 80s fc the hard part are the bosses, so bloodpaint to keep bms barbs survival, sins can spark a lot more times so dealing more dmg in overall...
has for mobs well maybe and archer is better with BOA but like above said sins can spark and aoe besides after they can shadow escape and dont get agro like usually archer gaet and eventually dies to...
So final thought is only a morron would take and archer over a sin...
For lvl90s fc , Triple spark sins lol has to be a even bigger morron if he choose archer above a sin....
thats is all...0 -
That or This or This or That
mm choices, make your own squads, run like you want to...[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
A sin. The main reason is that sins usually start getting decent aps after 90, when most archers get a decent fists at 95+. When I run FCC, most pulls die in two-three hits which means that an archer barely has time to set up barrage.
I don't choose characters that I run with other than making sure we got a barb and cleric. It's just that usually at least half of the pm's are from sins. b:chuckle100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
GrimReaperHC wrote: »I didn't know that archers should not STA the bosses. I used STA on my run, but no one insisted to stop doing it. Well I guess we are learning something new every day.
You can use sharpened tooth arrow in frost city, but you need to be careful how you use it.
The experience your squad gets is proportional to the damage your squad delivered before the monster dies. (I think this might have its roots in the code that handles splitting experience across multiple squads, but my experience with snowmen says that something else is going on there (snowmen have one health and yet you can still get fractional experience from them).)
However, sharpened tooth arrow is an AoE, which can be handy in frost.
So, sharpened tooth arrow should probably still be used in frost, you just need to avoid using it on healthy opponents. If your damage is high enough, the sequence: thunderous blast, sharpened tooth arrow, thunderous blast can be quite useful. You will have a bit of time there, between your sta and your second blast, which you can use for running or for wingspan. If you run, you should keep in mind the capabilities of your squad and where you things to be when you are done with this sequence...
Of course that can need a lot of fine tuning (you probably want to wait until someone else has aggro before you use your blast, but its slow channelling ought to make that easy, and wingspan is bad when you do not want its knockback, and so on...)0 -
JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »Was a mistype and meant 4, but wondering why you were doing teles on HT like this is the end-all, be-all? Just pick the one you wanna play and don't be an STA **** in FF if you pick archer.
For one dude IF you were smart enough to pay attention to STA you'd know that it saps XP when you KILL the mob with it on over all you loose what 40xp? and thats a lvl 10STA
My STA is lv 2 i tested it i lost ONE xp get over it plus before you go pointing the finger,you dont even know me you dont even know how i do FF i dont use STA its not worth using as for wingspan and knockback the only time i use those is if ppl like you let a mob through to the cleric all i wanted was a simple "Archer" or "Sin" not to have you bag all the archers out
if you got nothing decent to say dont say it
that is all0 -
I'd prefer a Sin. And an Archer.
Seriously, you have 4-5 DD slots (5 if you use a BM as a puller and they're a decent DD). If there was just one slot in the party left and I had a choice between a Sin and an Archer? Don't care. Pickup groups are a Russian Roulette of competence, anyway, so I'm just as likely to get a competent archer as a Sin, although another Sin would be helpful when I'm killing the first four shades and the first boss while I'm waiting for the squad to be invited/gather.
I will say that, 9 times out of 10, I'd rather take a Wizard or a Psychic for AoE damage instead of a Sin or an Archer. The Sin and the Archer are for faster boss kills, even though we both get some fairly vicious AoEs under our belts.0 -
Archer for me. But I'm biased.
Almost every single squad I am in, I tank the bosses. And I assist the BM with stunning bishops. Sin's are useless imho, except for the fact that they can stealth and kill shades.
In all reality, I hate waiting around. I can run through fc in 25 minutes in a 88-98 squad, have done so many times. All it takes is for everyone, including the barb, to not be slow and just pay attention and be good at their class.
I dont use STA at the bosses, because Im usually tanking the bosses with my deicides. And at 95, I only had 3.33 aps d-sparked.
I just think sin's are overrated. I never was a huge fan of them.0 -
sin for 3 reasons
HF+wizzie wife = no need to worry about AOE damage
STA (archers who use this get the boot >.>)
bloodpaintGifs are hard to make work here0 -
wasn't there a thread quite a while ago by Elena stating that if the Hp removal effect is active when the boss is killed that the exp value is decreased in proportion? something to that effect, if so that applies to both deicide's and sta and veno sage soul degen. (skill may not be right it's been too long for me)I can see what you see not,
Vision milky, then eyes rot.
When you turn, they will be gone,
Whispering their hidden song.
Then you see what cannot be,
Shadows move where light should be.
Out of darkness, out of mind,
Cast down into the Halls of the Blind.0 -
Sneakret - Heavens Tear wrote: »wasn't there a thread quite a while ago by Elena stating that if the Hp removal effect is active when the boss is killed that the exp value is decreased in proportion? something to that effect, if so that applies to both deicide's and sta and veno sage soul degen. (skill may not be right it's been too long for me)
Fleur's response earlier in the thread correctly describes the usage of STA in FF. Veno Sage Soul Degeneration should be restricted in a similar manner, but there is no real way to restrict Deicide's proc, aside from not using Deicides.
If the target has taken X% damage already, then you can use an attack that reduces X% of it's HP without fear of losing experience.0 -
Relax kiddo.Zaw - Heavens Tear wrote: »For one dude IF you were smart enough to pay attention to STA you'd know that it saps XP when you KILL the mob with it on over all you loose what 40xp? and thats a lvl 10STA
My STA is lv 2 i tested it i lost ONE xp get over it plus before you go pointing the finger,you dont even know me you dont even know how i do FF i dont use STA its not worth using as for wingspan and knockback the only time i use those is if ppl like you let a mob through to the cleric all i wanted was a simple "Archer" or "Sin" not to have you bag all the archers out
if you got nothing decent to say dont say it
that is all
You'd lose 40XP if the bosses in FF gave the equivalent of what the mobs at the very start of the instance give without hyper. If your plan is to choose a class for FF, then it's smart to actually know what you're doing instead of f***ing the squad out of experience just because you know how to click/press a button for a skill. If you don't want the discussion that comes with the classes you picked then don't post or don't debate the relevant subtopics that come up in your thread. Here's some actual useful information..
If you take Decaying Fragrance for example, she gives a possible max (which declines as you get higher in level) with just 12x hyper (and no other xp modifiers) of 647,000XP. 16% of that is 103,000XP (20% with sage STA or veno sage soul degeneration would be 129,000XP), which is the max you lose with level 10 STA. Still think it's 40XP?
Here's some more max XP w/12x (in parenthesis how much max XP you lose with lvl 10 STA and 12x hyper with no additional modifiers), which includes Fragrance for future quoting reference:
Cyclotra Styren: 365,000 (58,000)
Dreadindra: 382,000 (61,000)
Asoteric Runewolf: 382,000 (61,000)
Messenger of Fear: 636,000 (101,000)
Oceania: 626,000 (100,000)
Fragrance: 647,000 (103,000)
Runephoenix: 410,000 (65,000)
Soul/Body of Holeen [they both give the same XP/SP]: 334,000 (53,000)
Big Holeen: 669,000 (107,000)
If you decide to lvl 10 STA every one of these bosses that someone else hypers, the max XP they lose combined is 700,000. We won't get into the possibilities of you using STA as a first hit on the big room mobs, but it's equivalent to Oceania about.
Anyhow, you're the classic example (as well as a previous archer in this topic) why I heavily lean against bringing archers to FF squads. Too many point and click without even knowing what they're doing. Please pick sin for the betterment of any squad you'd run with on your archer.
I also refer to Elenacostel's post above concerning the mechanics of any "max hp" reduction skill which includes STA. There are actually smart archers who play and are on HT, go figure.0 -
Level 80-89 id say archer. At these levels you actually have to struggle with mobs and Barrage makes a big difference as the main damage source for big pulls. Sins at low lvls cant really solo bosses/shades and tank stuff anyway, they're good DDs for bosses but horrible DDs for pulls. They also tend to press panic button "Shadow Escape" as soon as anything looks bad instead of trying to save the cleric for example lol.
After 90+ mobs die fast anyway so sins are generally better. Than you just wanna see loads of triple spark and high dps on bosses. 9X sins in general speeds up Frost a lot since they often solo first boss, runs ahead and kills all Shades, can clear entire hall with Bishops while rest of party kills those quests mobs at second boss etc. Also Blood paint makes a big difference at 90+ since people hit harder and faster. With many sins in party you dont even have to bother about stuff like bishops spawning since bosses die in 30-60 seconds.
I still enjoy having 1 archer with high interval + Gorenox/Deicide in Frost parties tho. You will have a dedicated Harpy/Hands killer that wont **** about it. Watching 3 sins and 1 BM argue for minutes over APS versus = who will kill hands is so annoying b:angry. Sins + Bms never freaking helps out the cleric when she/he gets ganked by harpies either, they just keep running hoping for the harpy to magically just go away or re-set while the cleric is about to die. Archers generally have pretty nice aps with fists/claws at these levels to since majority have rank top, wrist and cloak. I also like having an archer STA bosses i dont hyper b:surrender0 -
Fist archer. Problem solved.0
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The only time I even STA is when in TT, FBs, World bosses/mobs. You will find good archers and bad ones, just like every other class (including sins). Its just that sins seem a little less fail considering what most squads require of them is stealth -> spark -> auto hit and BP. They really dont care if the sin uses the other skills or not.
Not quite the same for archers since our gameplay needs to change depending on the boss and mobs. While sins are very capable of AoEing, a squad will never question the sin if they dont use it.
I do remember doing a 90+ FC run (probably one of my fastest) with 4 archers (including me) below 98, 1 cleric and 1 BM (puller + stunner). Most of the bosses were range tanked (except Dreadindra and shocktrooper). Runewolf was killed just before the first slash. It was also funny to see 4 Thunderous Blasts at the mobs, 4 barrages opening on the mobs in the big room, etc. A weird run but an extremely good one.
So yea...I have no specific preference on the class as long as they do their intended job properly else they get the boot.0 -
As a Cleric, I like Archers better. Sins tend to steal more aggro because they don't know how to control themselves and they think they are tanks... I hate it when I'm healing the Barb then suddenly Sin loses 50% HP because s/he steals aggo. -_- No offence, I've met pretty epic Sins, but most of them are noobs. Also, Archers take less damage due to their range. They are better for Harpies and I love their speed buff! b:dirty0
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Zaw - Heavens Tear wrote: »For one dude IF you were smart enough to pay attention to STA you'd know that it saps XP when you KILL the mob with it on over all you loose what 40xp? and thats a lvl 10STA
My STA is lv 2
Why would you even admit that in public O.o
Level 2 Sharpened Tooth Arrow at 85+ is really really bad. It should be maxed at 85, or at least level 7 or 8 if you're poor. People group archers for BH and TT expecting them to remove 16% of the boss health <_<
Level 2 STA is about as bad as a veno with level 2 Amplify Damage or a BM with lvl 2 HF. Actually its even worse with level 2 STA since party will notice it lol. Everyone will see that the boss hp only gets reduced with 4% instead of 16%.0 -
TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »Everyone will see that the boss hp only gets reduced with 4% instead of 16%.
Deicides > that0
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