STA reduces experience!

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Each class has their reoccuring threads, like BMs have about five "what weapon path should I use" a week, and sin have thier "how do I get aps" threads. I can only assume STA and exp loss is one of the archer forum reoccuring topics but since I didn't see a recent one in the searches I will start one, for those of you who use it accurately, ty.


Using STA can reduce the amount of experience given!

[How Sharpened Tooth arrow (STA) works is it reduces the max hp of targets within a 6 meter radius by 16% for 30 seconds at level 10. When a mob/boss dies the amount of percent of xp given is equal to the percent of hp the squad damaged. This means if you use STA on a boss, and remove 16% of it's hp you will only recieve 84% of the experience from the boss.


Example:
Lets use level 6 STA since 10% is easier to calculate. A squad attacks a boss with 100k hp. After 4k damage is dealt the archer uses STA and reduces the hp from 96k to 90k, the squad then continues to deal damage till the boss is dead. Since the squad only dealt dmg of 90k, plus the 4k before the boss was STA'd for a total of 94k dmg dealed out of 100k, they will get 94% of the boss experience. EVEN IF THE STA WORE OFF BEFORE THE BOSS DIED, returning his hp to 100%. Alot of archers tend to think letting the buff wear off so the boss has 100% hp will give full experience but the experience given is based on the % of dmg actually done to the boss.

If you consider someone is 12 x hypering a boss who had 15% hp removed than they are losing180% of the experience rewarded.



I keep going on FCC runs with archer who don't know this and STA every boss. Some do it out of ignorance, others do it to save time. Saving time I can understand, sort of. Not sure why you would FCC at all if you cripple your xp 16% to save 16% of your time. You can not FCC at all, get 0% and save 100% of your time. Some are more selective, STAing the bosses that people don't hyper. But pure ignorance of a skill that is part of your arsenal is intolerable. I am very close to not accepting archers into my squads, since I don't feel like interviewing everyone of them asking if they know STA reduces exp since the majority don't seem to. Alot of them are under the impression it only reduces exp if the buff is still on when the boss dies, which is untrue. Test it yourselves if you don't believe me. Just remember to test it on mobs where your attack damage doesn't do more than 16% of the mobs hp, otherwise its the arrow that removed the hp not the skill and you will get full exp. I have tested it multiple times with non believing archers to show them it does in fact reduce exp given.

So, tell each other. If you aren't an archer, tell a friend. Too often I hear "but a level 101 archer told me it doesn't." It does. They're just ignorant and managed to get to 101 without learning their class fully. Prevent further archer hate by educating each other before people learn to avoid accepting archers into their FCC squads.


http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Myths_and_Misinformation Second topic from the bottom explains it in the pwi wiki.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=501002 Elanacostels guide on STA. The end-all to STA questions.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

same happens when deicides proc, no?

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Yes, the mod Soul Infect does the same thing on Deicides. Some BM's will attack with another weapon or second set of fists for a few seconds but most just ignore it because the proc rate is 5% on Soul Infect and it only reduces the hp by 10%. This means that it'll prolly take 10+ hits before the weapon procs and in that time the boss hp should be reduced by close to 10% from damage anyways.


Other skills are Veno's Sage Soul Degeneration, Sin's Sage Ribstrike, Archer's Blood Vow, and a genie skill can do it too (forgot the name).

Shulkie - Dreamweaver

i thougt 5% proc meant that every hit had a 1/20 chance of being a proc, i.e you could 1 proc every 20 hits OR get 2 or 3 procs in a row OR or none at all for the duration of a figh, or any random number. If the first hit procs - then it has the same effect as STA.

either way another poorly planned element of the game - giving players a skill to assist them that actually hinders them by reducing xp gain. Until this came to light STA was one of the things you wanted archers in squads for - to reduce the bosses max hp so you could kill him quicker. Now it is the very reason archers get kicked from squads (if they get in in the first place!).

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Shulkie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i thougt 5% proc meant that every hit had a 1/20 chance of being a proc, i.e you could 1 proc every 20 hits OR get 2 or 3 procs in a row OR or none at all for the duration of a figh, or any random number. If the first hit procs - then it has the same effect as STA.

either way another poorly planned element of the game - giving players a skill to assist them that actually hinders them by reducing xp gain. Until this came to light STA was one of the things you wanted archers in squads for - to reduce the bosses max hp so you could kill him quicker. Now it is the very reason archers get kicked from squads (if they get in in the first place!).

You're right, that is what a 5% proc means. On a boss that people want to hyper its unfortunate if it procs right away, but on a boss no one is hypering, or a TT/Nirvana/BH boss you want STA used or Soul Infect to proc quickly.

And I never have accepted or rejected an archer from a squad, FCC, BH, or otherwise, for having or not having STA. Although I am getting very close to being a barb/cleric that doesn't allow archers I don't know into my FCCs. I think the decline of popularity of archers has more been because of the rise of sins/bms and aps (yes I know, archers can 5.0 easier than BMs.) Everyone is trying to load their squads and pre aps archer was one of the top classes, now they're 3rd or 4th in popularity of DDs (Sins, BMs, Psychics?. Not to mention people love veno's for pets, amp, and spark.)

Ubique - Raging Tide

There was numerous threads in the forums about STA reducing XP specifcally in Frost city where XP is the whole point of the instance.

However, STA will only reduce the XP gained from killing a boss/mob if the debuff is still in effect when the '****' dies. Therefore STA shouldnt be used against mobs where a party is doing something like a 'hyper pull' in frost as the mobs will die before the debuff wears off. However when killing bosses STA used close to the start of your DD will do its job properly without reducing any experience gained from killing the boss as the debuff will have worn off before it dies (unless you have several 5aps DD'ers and a BM using HF in your squad). This is because the MAX HP of the boss is only reduced while the debuff is in effect when it wears off it returns to normal but the HP it lost to begin with does not return.

Merry Christmas all!

Ubi

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear

Maybe a little testing and some SS for proof.Cause I'm getting confused each time I enter FF now.I remember that STA reduces exp and now I got multitudes of people conflictinjg over whether I should STA or not.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Ubique - Raging Tide wrote: »

However, STA will only reduce the XP gained from killing a boss/mob if the debuff is still in effect when the '****' dies.

I would like to know if you have tested this, for yourself?

I must admit that I have not tested for this possibility recently, but your assertion here conflicts with my foggily remembered tests from some time ago.

Nordvargr - Sanctuary

Ubique - Raging Tide wrote: »

There was numerous threads in the forums about STA reducing XP specifcally in Frost city where XP is the whole point of the instance.

However, STA will only reduce the XP gained from killing a boss/mob if the debuff is still in effect when the '****' dies. Therefore STA shouldnt be used against mobs where a party is doing something like a 'hyper pull' in frost as the mobs will die before the debuff wears off. However when killing bosses STA used close to the start of your DD will do its job properly without reducing any experience gained from killing the boss as the debuff will have worn off before it dies (unless you have several 5aps DD'ers and a BM using HF in your squad). This is because the MAX HP of the boss is only reduced while the debuff is in effect when it wears off it returns to normal but the HP it lost to begin with does not return.

Merry Christmas all!

Ubi

Go test something before u make posts like this. EXP is still reduced even after STA debuff wears off. Not by much but it is reduced.

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear

OK.I just dented the population of Orchid Petalis after killing hundreds of Orchid Petali.Closest mob near me I could find that
1.Didn't die after STA
2.Could kill before STA ran off
3.Survive till STA wears off

I am using Level 7 STA in all scenarios and I took at least 40samples of each scenario and averaged the Exp I got(rounded to the nearest whole number) and only targetted those without any other attributes.(E.g.Increased Attack/Weak/Increased Life etc.)

Normal Exp with just attacking:362xp
Opening with STA and killing before STA debuff goes away:324xp
Opening with STA and killing after STA debuff goes away(Took off weapon and punched it to death):330xp
Opening with normal attacks and STA at half HP:362xp
Opening with normal attacks and STA at 90% HP(Level 7 STA drops HP to 88.5%) and kill before debuffs go away:324xp
Opening with normal attacks and STA at 90%HP and kill after debuffs go away:331xp

Therefore,I conclude STA reduces exp when the current HP of the monster>New Max HP of monster after STA and is unaffected by whether the debuff is active or not when the mob dies.Also,the theoratical percentage(on paper) of exp reduced is equivalent to the percentage deducted by STA and the discrepancy in the actual exp reduction(in actual situtations) and percentage life decreased by STA is due to the regeneration of the monster.

Edit:Oh by the way,we got a sticky thread that has links to STA and EXP already and the tests I conducted back that up.Well,at least until someone proves something is wrong with my testing method

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear

I'm going to have to devote an entire section of my guide just to explain XP loss.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Did you just figure this out?

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear

People were confusing me cause some BM claimed to have higher levels and kept scolding me for not using STA while the other squad members asked me not to.And this thread deepened my doubt =.=

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

So if I go into FB19, take a boss down to 200 hp, and let it regenerate all the way back to full, then take it back down to 200 hp, then let it regenerate all the way back to full, then kill it, I'll get 3x the normal exp for killing it, since I just did 3x the bosses HP in damage to it? Or does it reset?

Asking this because I tried farming FB19 once for molds (obviously didn't work so well).

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear

You go test it b:cute.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

So if I go into FB19, take a boss down to 200 hp, and let it regenerate all the way back to full, then take it back down to 200 hp, then let it regenerate all the way back to full, then kill it, I'll get 3x the normal exp for killing it, since I just did 3x the bosses HP in damage to it? Or does it reset?

Asking this because I tried farming FB19 once for molds (obviously didn't work so well).

No you can't get more than the default XP of the mob. When grinding all normal mobs give the same amount of XP regardless of how long you take to kill (as long as you dont open with tooth).

If it were to credit damage for more than the maximum HP of the mob I bet it would have lead to a bug where you get lots of XP from over-killing level 1 mobs.

KAZMOENEEK - Heavens Tear

I do it anyways on my archer..who cares and most of the time the mobs re dead while st is on it..so no loss.

Teppeii - Dreamweaver

Redundant topic is redundant.b:bye

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

People were confusing me cause some BM claimed to have higher levels and kept scolding me for not using STA while the other squad members asked me not to.And this thread deepened my doubt =.=

Presume most people are stupid, and that will help you out in coming to your own conclusions about STA.

Test it for yourself. See the results. Ignore the dumb **** or do what I do and test it following the FF for every single dingbat who wants to see for himself. Unfortunately every time I ask a sage veno with sage SD or an archer with STA they usually ask me why and in many cases either they argue with me or some other smartass does. The arguing usually comes after the explanation.

Of course deicides do but I haven't figured out the rate of XP loss. I know it's 10% when it procs presuming it's the first hit like STA but I don't know the average proc rate for deicides and if it's even inside a boss' max 10% health to make much difference. I also can't see why I would tell a BM or an archer to stop using a -interval weapon that makes a boss die faster with a minimal XP loss, but I can see a reason why I would tell an archer or a sage veno not to deliberately knock off 15-20% of XP with no good reason to do so. Why the hell would one purposely nerf XP in an XP instance? There's no other reason to run frost.

You wind up losing in your late 80s and early 90s around half a million experience if you hyper every boss from styren and on like I do and see a good chunk of frost runners do, if an archer with level 10 or sage 11 STA or sage soul degen uses it for it's max effect.

Besides the quest to get the sincerity token, just about every portion of experience you get there is mob-kill experience. So because this game recognizes experience as damage, whatever % you take off, level differences aside, using a "max hp reduction" effect, you'll effectively lose in experience the value of experience the mob(s) were set to give you.