Class and Cultivation Balance.

Blade_aether - Lost City

As Vorhs put ever so nicely, 'if something is overpowered, you don't need to overpower everything else, just nerf the overpowered'

Before the release of the new classes; Mystic and Seeker, PWI and their Devs should look at the current Sage and Demon cultivations of each class, and their skill set. Balance is in need, and is long overdue. Most agree, and by most I mean 97% agree that Assassins are overpowered, for whatever reasons we may have be it jealous or what not.

There is a strong -interval push on all servers, making mages and archers, who used to be some of the strongest DD, feel unnecessary unless they too are wielding Lunar class and hit and 4.0APS. I can honestly say that I have seen a heavy claw user of every class in Lost City Server at least, Phirefly being the most prominent claw veno that I am aware of.

With such a strong weight on DD, where does the freedom to explore new builds and using skills come into play? The vast majority of my friends have rerolled, and now play their 10x assassins because it makes PK easier. I vomit at the thought of the whole server rerolling.

This is not an assassin hate thread. First and foremost, I want it understood that I am, as well as many other are asking for cultivation balance. Since I only play a barb, I am biased towards examples kin to my class. But let's take a glance at a Sage assassin for a second, as I am sure most of us have had to struggle with their flood of stuns, and high DPS. Lvl 10 Wolf Emblem, + Sage Dagger Devotion, + Jones Blessing, + God of Frenzy Nirvana Daggers, + Stream Strike. This gives the class a more than probably 80+% crit rate a 38% chance to deal double damage disregarding crit. This gives the class an unstacked 120% chance to deal double damage of some sort, with a 21% chance to deal quad damage, or 4 times the normal amount. With skills that can deal 430% of weapon damage and a 21% chance to deal quad damage, it makes you wonder why either Wizards don't and cannot get zerk, and why assassins use a weapon that they can hit at 5.0 base even as a sage assassin.

So do we give wizards zerk? At 19% chance to proc, and how infrequent their attacks fly off, especially considering what sins get in their slew of skills, wouldn't be unfair.

So if -channeling is % based, why is -interval not? A demon wizard with full -channeling can get about -75% channeling. This does not affect casting time, and the gear required to achieve this speed severely impairs their physical defense. So they do in fact cast much faster, but still not as fast as a psychic.

Now I was in a Frost run a couple of days a ago, soon after having learned my long sought after Sage Beastial Onslaught. Being so terribly excited I decided to test it out of the heads in frost. I did not hit a single one, and not for the reason that you may suspect.

My channeling time was so great (Too long) that the two psychics in party were able to channel two (2) skills, legitimately in the time it took me to channel and cast that one skill. At first I say blasphemy, and secondly I say terribly unjust. Albeit 100% accurate, how are caster classes attacking twice as fast as my only ranged skill? Furthermore, they do more damage per hit! Where is the balance in that? Demon Onslaught does not have increased channeling time, in fact, it gives you a 35% crit bonus!

What about poor old Archers... Long before the advent of -interval, Sage Archer was always one of the most laughable cultivation choices, but why? I mean more damage per hit from mastery, more range and longer stuns, effecting keeping people out of your range... So why is it now, it is almost unheard of? Why must all physical classes go demon? Is demon triple spark that fantastic? Poor archers, even the ones who want to go sage, normally go demon, and equip some claws, just so they can get into nirvana runs... Boor babies...

Venos... I love Sage venos, a ton. AOE purge, their amp is redonk-u-lous. And 900%, I repeat 900% weapon damage upon using triple spark. Why does no other Sage class get a 200% weapon damage bonus over their Demon counterpart?I wouldn't mind getting 700% weapon damage, while Demon barbs get 500% and their 25% attack rate increase. YET! STILL! Most venos go demon... I guess they just cannot get enough of that Demon summer sprint and Demon Fox form so they can prance around at 9.9m/s? So why do most venos argue Demon till the death?
Why don't I get 700% weapon damage when I triple spark? (Being a Sage barb)

Let me finish with, what do you guys think? Balance cultivations and skill sets? Or distract us with shiny new classes so we forget about our beloved but outdated old ones? Honestly PWI, please take out the trash, before you bury us with more.

Zoe - Heavens Tear

If everyone picks 1 thing, that 1 thing is clearly overpowered and needs to be toned down or simply removed.

Short way of saying everything you just did.

Something I completely agree with.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

This gives the class a more than probably 80+% crit rate a 38% chance to deal double damage disregarding crit. This gives the class an unstacked 120% chance to deal double damage of some sort, with a 21% chance to deal quad damage, or 4 times the normal amount.

Assuming (not into sins/meelee)
80% crit
38% zerk

nothing: 12.4%
crit: 80%
zerk: 38%
crit and zerk: 30.4%

so the chance of double dmg (crit or zerk or whatever) is 88%
am I missing something? :;/

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

. Most agree, and by most I mean 97% agree that Assassins are overpowered

Nice asspull there.

But let's take a glance at a Sage assassin for a second, as I am sure most of us have had to struggle with their flood of stuns, and high DPS. Lvl 10 Wolf Emblem, + Sage Dagger Devotion, + Jones Blessing, + God of Frenzy Nirvana Daggers, + Stream Strike. This gives the class a more than probably 80+% crit rate a 38% chance to deal double damage disregarding crit. This gives the class an unstacked 120% chance to deal double damage of some sort, with a 21% chance to deal quad damage, or 4 times the normal amount. With skills that can deal 430% of weapon damage and a 21% chance to deal quad

Um, where the hell did you get those numbers? Do you even understand what percentages mean? 120% chance to deal double damage does not exist, since probabilities are capped at 100% and anything over that is discarded.

Also, the only way an Assassin can get 80+% Crit is with Power Dash and that lasts 8 seconds. Wolf Emblem's +20-40% Rage Damage effectively adds a few %, but it's less than 10%.

damage, it makes you wonder why either Wizards don't and cannot get zerk, and why assassins use a weapon that they can hit at 5.0 base even as a sage assassin.

Sage Assassin's cannot get 5.0 APS without using either Relentless Courage or Wind Shield. And with any other dagger than Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, they max at 3.33 APS and even that requires Rank 8 armor.

So if -channeling is % based, why is -interval not? A demon wizard with full -channeling can get about -75% channeling. This does not affect casting time, and the gear required to achieve this speed severely impairs their physical defense. So they do in fact cast much faster, but still not as fast as a psychic.

... You do realize that fists, claws and daggers have inherently lower DPH? You're completely missing the point why -interval is so wrong. It's strong because it doesn't diminish with more -interval, it gets better.

And -interval doesn't change even if you made it % based. It'd still lead to 5 aps. But that's just because the game calculates attack speed via attack interval, so a +50% boost to attack speed is actually -50% interval. Oh and yeah, if you changed every -0.05 interval into -5% interval, it'd still reach 5 APS assuming it stacked with Demon Spark, you'd only make it so that Sages max at 2.86 aps instead of 4.

My channeling time was so great (Too long) that the two psychics in party were able to channel two (2) skills, legitimately in the time it took me to channel and cast that one skill. At first I say blasphemy, and secondly I say terribly unjust. Albeit 100% accurate, how are caster classes attacking twice as fast as my only ranged skill? Furthermore, they do more damage per hit! Where is the balance in that? Demon Onslaught does not have increased channeling time, in fact, it gives you a 35% crit bonus!

Um, you're a melee, they're casters. Of course they will be casting faster.

What about poor old Archers... Long before the advent of -interval, Sage Archer was always one of the most laughable cultivation choices, but why? I mean more damage per hit from mastery, more range and longer stuns, effecting keeping people out of your range... So why is it now, it is almost unheard of? Why must all physical classes go demon? Is demon triple spark that fantastic? Poor archers, even the ones who want to go sage, normally go demon, and equip some claws, just so they can get into nirvana runs... Boor babies...

Archers went with Demon because they got the most damage out of normal attacks, which made Demon optimal since it had two attack speed buffs: Quickshot and Demon Spark.

Amour - Lost City

Olbaze, you've spent far too much time reading into the numbers and not enough time looking at the concept. What he's demonstrating is the sheer overpowered nature of demon classes, and interval throughout this game.

1) Sins are overpowered. Incredibly. It may not be 97%, but that's because 40% of the server are sins and 3/4 of them want to believe they're good.

2) Again, get off his nuts about the numbers. This wasn't a post about mathematical equations.

3) 4.0 base is still insane, and wind shield isn't exactly genie intensive.

4) He's trying to explain why interval is so overpowered compared to channeling. It's exactly what you said, interval has exponential gain while channeling has diminishing returns, nice balance.

5) He means his skills. Beastial Onslaught (sage) takes about 2-3 seconds to fully cast. A psychic can channel 2 skills in that time, as well as hitting harder than him they hit faster.

6) as far as demon skills go I agree demon archer is better, but the skills should not be so one sided that people are shunned for being sage.

Magic classes are generally balanced in terms of cultis, but that's only because they don't have -int syndrome going on.

Point is this game is imbalanced and they don't care.

Alphae - Lost City

I'm a demon veno because:
1. my skills do ONLY wood damage, and one of them make the mob drop 30% wood resist.
2. my bramble reflects 75%. That's herc buff.
3. my mana and hp regen skills cool down faster, I can grind forever. (wut iz grind lol)
4. my nova amps as well as stuns, pretty OP
5. cooldowns, all around.
6. anti stun skill (demon summer sprint)
7. yes, speed in fox.

Of all the culti paths, veno is easily the most balanced, with both sides being really viable choices.

Kaste - Sanctuary

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Honestly PWI, please take out the trash, before you bury us with more.

^This.

Vorhs - Lost City

I love how assassin class lovers always try to concentrate on numbers to show you that you are wrong cause THAT 80% is actually a 78% cause blablablabla (its an example)

Completely missing the point that if they were able to deal HALF the damage they actually deal, they would still be overpowered

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Amour - Lost City wrote: »

Olbaze, you've spent far too much time reading into the numbers and not enough time looking at the concept. What he's demonstrating is the sheer overpowered nature of demon classes, and interval throughout this game.

Asspulling random numbers that make no sense whatsoever isn't exactly the best move.

1) Sins are overpowered. Incredibly. It may not be 97%, but that's because 40% of the server are sins and 3/4 of them want to believe they're good.

2) Again, get off his nuts about the numbers. This wasn't a post about mathematical equations.

3) 4.0 base is still insane, and wind shield isn't exactly genie intensive.

4) He's trying to explain why interval is so overpowered compared to channeling. It's exactly what you said, interval has exponential gain while channeling has diminishing returns, nice balance.

5) He means his skills. Beastial Onslaught (sage) takes about 2-3 seconds to fully cast. A psychic can channel 2 skills in that time, as well as hitting harder than him they hit faster.

6) as far as demon skills go I agree demon archer is better, but the skills should not be so one sided that people are shunned for being sage.

1. Yes, sins are overpowered. I'd know that, my level 80 sin has more DPS than my 92 Archer.

3. 4.0 Base is only achievable with Rank 8 armor and all the other -interval gear, otherwise a Sage Sin is stuck at 3.33 or less. And Wind Shield might not be genie intensive, but it's still not a permanent buff. My genie that is pure vita/mag, can pull 8 Wind Shields in a row. Actually doing that would be dumb because of all the chi skills a Sin has.

4. Well, -channel and -interval actually reduce the same thing, that being the attack duration. Just that -interval is a constant, which causes it to be more effective with smaller attack durations than with larger.

5. Again, psychics are casters, of course they're gonna be casting faster.

6. It's less about the skill set being imbalanced and more about the people being extremely efficiency-oriented. A Sage Archer can still do decent DPS: more than a 88 Archer, but less than a Demon.

Magic classes are generally balanced in terms of cultis, but that's only because they don't have -int syndrome going on.

Again, that's more about the players than the classes. For example, I've gotten bashed for saying that Sage Sins are actually a good cultivation. And the only reason for that? No 5 aps for Sage Sins. And I've seen people actually go "Demon Spark > Sage Skills".

Point is this game is imbalanced and they don't care.

Well, it makes them massive amounts of money. And even if the game dies, they can just launch another version.

Kaste - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And I've seen people actually go "Demon Spark > Sage Skills".

Because it is free compared to the money and effort to get the Sage skills ^^.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

Because it is free compared to the money and effort to get the Sage skills ^^.

Yeah and when you hit 100, PWE congratulates you by mailing you all the -interval items, except Rank items for obvious reasons, with 4 sockets filled with Primevals and +10 refines. Right? Because that 500,000,000 for 5 aps wouldn't be "free" any other way.

Oh, and Sage Spark and Master Li's Technique are just as "free" as Demon Spark. And those are two pretty important Sage skills.

Really, it's hilarious to see Demon advocates argue that Demon > Sage because Demon gets 5 aps and Sage skills cost too much. It's even more hilarious when you realize that at the same 3.33 aps, Sage easily has permaspark. And that the gear to get that 3.33 aps costs more than buying and learning all of the useful skills on a Sage Sin.

Kaste - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah and when you hit 100, PWE congratulates you by mailing you all the -interval items, except Rank items for obvious reasons, with 4 sockets filled with Primevals and +10 refines. Right? Because that 500,000,000 for 5 aps wouldn't be "free" any other way.

Oh, and Sage Spark and Master Li's Technique are just as "free" as Demon Spark. And those are two pretty important Sage skills.

Really, it's hilarious to see Demon advocates argue that Demon > Sage because Demon gets 5 aps and Sage skills cost too much. It's even more hilarious when you realize that at the same 3.33 aps, Sage easily has permaspark. And that the gear to get that 3.33 aps costs more than buying and learning all of the useful skills on a Sage Sin.

Hold on, you got me wrong. It is not that I say that demon spark > sage skills. I just said what they think. As most people think that 5.0 is the only way to go, the automatically choose demon as it is easier to hit 5.0 with them. Having a same geared Demon and Sage, Demon wins. IF you have 2 same geared Sage/Demons sins WITH ALL SKILLS, Sage wins.
So don't get me wrong, I never said that Demon > Sage. You kinda sound like demon are the only ones that need -int, but Sages need the gear too.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hold on, you got me wrong. It is not that I say that demon spark > sage skills. I just said what they think. As most people think that 5.0 is the only way to go, the automatically choose demon as it is easier to hit 5.0 with them. Having a same geared Demon and Sage, Demon wins. IF you have 2 same geared Sage/Demons sins WITH ALL SKILLS, Sage wins.
So don't get me wrong, I never said that Demon > Sage. You kinda sound like demon are the only ones that need -int, but Sages need the gear too.

Well of course, Sages will naturally be going for the same -interval gear as well. But it seems like there is actually a school that believes that all Sages should go with no interval at all and focus on skill spamming with CoD.

However, it's not like you need all the Sage skills. Focused Mind, Power Dash, Subsea Strike, Dagger Devotion, Bloodpaint and Rising Dragon Strike would be the most important ones. Out of those, Demons will want Dagger Devotion, Power Dash, Focused Mind and Subsea Strike. And possibly even Rising Dragon Strike. So the cost difference isn't really that big, if you consider them having the same gear.

As for Sages having less APS: I have a crappy 35/70 Zeal who is split 50:50 vit:mag and at lvl 78, she can put out 9 Wind Shields in a row. That's 72 seconds of Wind Shield. That's also enough to go through almost 5 Sparks, not to mention that it's longer than any of the cooldowns on any of the chi skills.

Boarian - Sanctuary

i Find it funny all the peeps who cry about sins. Each class has its pro's and con's

Zenorx - Harshlands

A demon OR sage sin with lunar claws can get 5.00 aps unsparked w/o genie AND WITHOUT R8 b:surrender

And too all you people saying thats its not OP cause it costs so much money, How come like 60% of the people at west are 4 or 5 aps. And if u cash shop a AA class for as much as it costs to get 5 aps your still gunna get owned in pvp and still suck at DDing on bosses compared with 5 apsb:surrender

5 APS is OP and something needs to be done weather it be take 5aps out or increase DPH from other classes.

Oh and with the added bonus of being a 5aps sin in pvp and being able to pop outta stealth and own someone in 2 seconds....... Robes have no chanceb:surrender

/thread

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear

Zenorx - Harshlands wrote: »

A demon OR sage sin with lunar claws can get 5.00 aps unsparked w/o genie AND WITHOUT R8

And too all you people saying thats its not OP cause it costs so much money, How come like 60% of the people at west are 4 or 5 aps. And if u cash shop a AA class for as much as it costs to get 5 aps your still gunna get owned in pvp and still suck at DDing on bosses compared with 5 aps

5 APS is OP and something needs to be done weather it be take 5aps out or increase DPH from other classes.

Oh and with the added bonus of being a 5aps sin in pvp and being able to pop outta stealth and own someone in 2 seconds....... Robes have no chance

/thread

Can't agree more. b:infuriated

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, it makes them massive amounts of money. And even if the game dies, they can just launch another version.

These make me remember PW - MS just died not long ago . . b:cry

Blade_aether - Lost City

WOAH WOAH WOAH,
Firstly, yes my numbers were all pulled out of my butt, but it is an opinion piece, not Newton's second law.

Secondly, your assassin is level 80. Nuff said anyone?

Thirdly 120% unstacked does not mean 120% likelihood to occur. Unstacking percentages indicate the total % add on regardless of effect or outcome. Meaning there are 120 1% chances. But even in that you make no sense, of course you can have more than 100%, like when it comes to growth, or excess, like this shampoo bottle is 120% of the size of our last shampoo bottle! But I was not referring to growth, merely unstacking percentages. But yes, I am full aware, 100% likelihood means every time, in that case there is no exceeding 100%, albeit that was still not what I was referring too.

Fourthly, that's right; fourthly:
You focus on the assassin side in your first post, then defend against everyone else's argument in your subsequent posts. Honestly, opinions can benefit everyone, but that doesn't mean that they always do. stop focusing on random numbers that I farted out and didn't bother to notify anyone of, and focus on the larger message.

WHICH IS: IMBALANCE; is it real?
And no, I don't mean like the global warming debate.
I believe it is.

Lastly L-O-L-B-L-A-Z-E, your sin is level 80. You should go a 'BLAZE' up some frosts so you can show everyone how 'balanced' your class really is.

Blade_Aether
Readin' yo writes.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Blade_aether - Lost City wrote: »

Secondly, your assassin is level 80. Nuff said anyone?

I'm 80 because I choose to be 80 because I'm farming Wraithgate Trophy Mode for Energetic Robe: Wraithgate. Since, you know, having 1.82 aps at 80 is cool.

You focus on the assassin side in your first post, then defend against everyone else's argument in your subsequent posts. Honestly, opinions can benefit everyone, but that doesn't mean that they always do. stop focusing on random numbers that I farted out and didn't bother to notify anyone of, and focus on the larger message.

If you're going to use any numbers at all, at least make sure they make sense. If you're just gonna asspull random numbers and act like that makes a coherent point, then you're an idiot.

Lastly L-O-L-B-L-A-Z-E, your sin is level 80. You should go a 'BLAZE' up some frosts so you can show everyone how 'balanced' your class really is.

Um, I've been 80 for like a few months now. Oh, and I do have a level 92 Archer, which you would've found out if you had checked my profile. Oh and he's also only 92 because I stopped caring about leveling sometime after I hit 90.

Really, you're kinda hilarious. For one, you're using ad hominem via arguing that my level has anything at all to do with the correctness of what I say. For two, you're acting like character level means anything at all nowadays when people are getting to level 100 in a few months easily. For three, you fell down to namecalling me in an attempt to either get an emotional reaction, which you won't, or to try to make my points less coherent, which won't happen.

Oh, and btw, I've been playing since May 2009. It's not that long, but it's sure long enough to know what I'm talking about. And it sure would be long enough to get a character or two to 100 if I bothered getting a faction and spending time outsite of my catshop every day.

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Zenorx - Harshlands wrote: »

A demon OR sage sin with lunar claws can get 5.00 aps unsparked w/o genie AND WITHOUT R8 b:surrender

And too all you people saying thats its not OP cause it costs so much money, How come like 60% of the people at west are 4 or 5 aps. And if u cash shop a AA class for as much as it costs to get 5 aps your still gunna get owned in pvp and still suck at DDing on bosses compared with 5 apsb:surrender

5 APS is OP and something needs to be done weather it be take 5aps out or increase DPH from other classes.

True but... increasing DPH would just make casters OP... maybe increase DPS for the basic spells (gush/aqua impact/cyclone), but even that I'm not sure if it's needed. The problem here is not that we are weak, it's that the -interval ppl are too strong.

I mean, if you don't carry some form of immunity (genie) skill you're basically ****ed if you ever get hit by someone with lots of -interval. Doesn't happen TOO often, like in PvE, it's not as breaking, but it still sucks.