-int pov & questions

Lywllian - Sanctuary

Alright, I know I'm still fairly low level, and really haven't hit the point where -int or those kind of things make or break an assassin, but I'm kinda confused by the class itself. I started on sin, and heard nothing about it. Didn't read the forum/build ideas nothing like that. Obviously, I 'messed up' in some areas of my build, but I suppose that's to be expected. I suppose my real question for you all is why is the focus on sins SOLELY on -int? Yes, I can do math, figure out the dps differences and everything like that. But I've now been lurking the sin forum for a while, and really can't figure it out.

The general feeling I get from here (and within pwi as well) is that any sin who is not building 5 aps Demon is just a failure of a player. While I can see why this is the case in sheer damage output/lifesteal/permaspark, it also makes me feel like we might, as an entire class, be missing something about ourselves. For instance, why is it that in all of the TT daggers, only 1 (TT80 Hook & Thorn) has -int attached? I mean, assuming that the devs of this game did try to balance this game (which I would at least like to believe) one would hope that they would not try to create a class where everyone gets the same gear, just because that's the only "good" way to play that class. While I just might not be paying as close attention to the other classes' high level builds, at least they don't seem at a quick glance so uniformly in favor of a single right build. In all my time here, I don't recall anyone asking about going Sage being answered with a response that wasn't negative. I seem to recall the most positive response being somewhere along the lines of "Yeah, Sage has a few benifits, but Demon is just better in every way."

I almost feel that by playing a sin I'm recruited into the "cult of -int", just by being this class. I sort of get the feeling that if you saw a fellow sin in your party with Warsoul daggers, you'd tell him he wasn't playing right because the daggers didn't have any -int on it. That is why I'm frustrated with this ******* -int cult. Yes, -int is good. Really, stupid, broken good. Maybe I'm overreacting, and only the people in WC and the Forums actually care about -int, but somehow I doubt it.

So I guess this brings me to my question. Where does it end? What will it take to destroy -int? Will it be a 3 aps cap? What is it that could even make you think about not building 5 aps sins?

Typhyse - Sanctuary

The subject of -int being nerfed has already been covered not long ago in General Discussion. Simply put, no they will not nerf -int, as far too many people spend hundreds even thousands or dollars to CS their toons to 4 or 5 aps.

Being an aps sin will not make or break you, if you can avoid those people who have the mind set of "4-5aps or GTFO noob!" I have seen a number or perfectly competent DPH sins.

Sage...I was actually an advocate of the Sage Sin for the longest time. Particularly because of Sage BP and Sage Wolf Emblem, but also because I never thought I would be able to achieve enough -int to make the Demon spark worth it.
However, I have fallen into Demonhood as well (or will soon) because I see now that it's really not that hard to attain at least decent aps (2-3aps).
Generally speaking, demon maximizes the playing potential of an -int Sin, while Sage is better for a DPH Sin.

-int gear is so scarce because it is the best way to go. The Devs wanted to make it hard to achieve high aps so that it would be balanced, and those few who did have high aps would be awesome as they worked their tails off for it. Sadly though, it did not happen this way. People with too much money on their hands snapped up all the -int gear they could, PW realized they had a new cash cow on their hands, made it easier to get -int gear so others would buy it, and it all went downhill from there...

Lastly, forgive my stupidity but what does "pov" mean?

Okeano - Harshlands

Sage DPH Sin is a viable option for PvP. People wants interval DD for PvE for obvious reason of getting things done faster.

There is no reason that demon can't be DPH since sage CoD only offers 5 more attack level and that's pretty much balanced by 40% rage damage on Demon Wolf Emblem. You can get decent DPS being a sage as well, but you'll be behind demon by a lot until you get full interval gears or if you go HA fists.

Lywllian - Sanctuary

Wow umm, I don't really know what to say. I guess I had forgotten that there were nice, helpful people on the internet. You both gave me hope that other people actually play this game to enjoy it. I guess I overreacted a bit. Sorry. I just remember when the question for sins was whether to go full dex or hybrid, and some dex sins talked about being jealous of the hybrids' healths. I suppose that questions change, but there will still be the rational people.

Though I have some more questions, (if I'm allowed to ask them in this thread). Does Demon Deep Sting just have 100% chance to hit, or can it hit (sleep) mobs it previously couldn't? Is Healing Trance a heal effect or regen effect? (Is it affected by the 1/4 reduction while in combat?)

I'm sure I'll be back with more questions later.

And Typhyse, pov means point of view. I suppose people wouldn't normally use that these days, would they....

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Lywllian - Sanctuary wrote: »

I suppose my real question for you all is why is the focus on sins SOLELY on -int? Yes, I can do math, figure out the dps differences and everything like that. But I've now been lurking the sin forum for a while, and really can't figure it out.

The reason is because -interval gives the sins a vastly superior DPS to everything else. And sins are DDs, so DPS is important.

The general feeling I get from here (and within pwi as well) is that any sin who is not building 5 aps Demon is just a failure of a player. While I can see why this is the case in sheer damage output/lifesteal/permaspark, it also makes me feel like we might, as an entire class, be missing something about ourselves. For instance, why is it that in all of the TT daggers, only 1 (TT80 Hook & Thorn) has -int attached? I mean, assuming that the devs of this game did try to balance this game (which I would at least like to believe) one would hope that they would not try to create a class where everyone gets the same gear, just because that's the only "good" way to play that class. While I just might not be paying as close attention to the other classes' high level builds, at least they don't seem at a quick glance so uniformly in favor of a single right build. In all my time here, I don't recall anyone asking about going Sage being answered with a response that wasn't negative. I seem to recall the most positive response being somewhere along the lines of "Yeah, Sage has a few benifits, but Demon is just better in every way."

Demon is superior in terms of DPS, but personally I'll be going Sage because in my opinion, Sage balances an assassin more than Demon. Demon gives them DPS and better stuns/sleeps/whatever, but Sage gives them better defenses via better Focused Mind, better Bloodpaint, better Tidal Protection.

So I guess this brings me to my question. Where does it end? What will it take to destroy -int? Will it be a 3 aps cap? What is it that could even make you think about not building 5 aps sins?

Well, I'll be going Sage so I can only ever reach 5 APS if I get Rank 8 and use Wind Shield, so I doubt that it's happening, so I think I am qualified to answer here.

1. -Interval will always be the dominant build. It's not only because it's better for DPS, but because the people are oriented towards efficiency. The people want the best and only the best. Why, I wouldn't know.

2. They won't cap -interval because when it was suggested in the PW-CH forums by the devs, it caused a massive uproar and they pretty much said it'd never happen. And on our side, capping -interval would cause an even greater uproar as a lot of people have spent a lot of cash to get 5 aps and be able to farm instances with it. It'd also cause a massive wave of people quitting the game, which would leave the playerbase lacking most of its knowledgeable people. Those that would remain wouldn't care anymore and would just troll the forums, telling people asking for help to "go away, it's a dead game".

3. In my case, having previously played an Archer, I noticed that even without Demon Spark, an assassin has much better DPS than an Archer. From that moment, I concluded that Sins have enough DPS regardless of their cultivation, so I made my pick based on what would compliment the weaknesses of an Assassin. And the answer was Sage.

There is no reason that demon can't be DPH since sage CoD only offers 5 more attack level and that's pretty much balanced by 40% rage damage on Demon Wolf Emblem.

Um, no. Considering the duration of Wolf Emblem, the 40% is effectively 20%, exactly the same as Sage Wolf Emblem. Not saying that Demon's couldn't go DPH, just that it'd be hilarious for them to do so.

Does Demon Deep Sting just have 100% chance to hit, or can it hit (sleep) mobs it previously couldn't?

It just gives you 100% to sleep a target that it hits. So it's really not either of your options. It doesn't sleep if you miss, nor does it sleep mobs that are immune to sleep.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, I'll be going Sage so I can only ever reach 5 APS if I get Rank 8 and use Wind Shield, so I doubt that it's happening, so I think I am qualified to answer here.

If you get all the other gear (TT99 LA bracers and boots, TT99 HA 2 jewelry pieces, Rank IV or VI chest, Nirvana pants, and Energetic Robe) you can achieve 5.00 APS unsparked and ungenie-aided with Decide Claws, which would be far cheaper than Rank VIII.
Only downfall is, you would be sacrificing the better DPH of daggers and the 60% extra damage from Dagger Devotion (90% for Sage, and 75% with +2% crit rate rate for Demon).

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

If you get all the other gear (TT99 LA bracers and boots, TT99 HA 2 jewelry pieces, Rank IV or VI chest, Nirvana pants, and Energetic Robe) you can achieve 5.00 APS unsparked and ungenie-aided with Decide Claws, which would be far cheaper than Rank VIII.
Only downfall is, you would be sacrificing the better DPH of daggers and the 60% extra damage from Dagger Devotion (90% for Sage, and 75% with +2% crit rate rate for Demon).

If you plan to go with Deicide, it'd be best to go with pure str, which would let you use HA Nirvana leggings for some additional defenses as well.

Though, with all of that gear, you'd have 3.33 aps base to begin with, which would allow 4 aps with Wind Shield. And that'd be better than using Deicide.

And personally, I believe that a 4.0 aps base Sage Sin has nothing but advantages over a Demon Sin. With a 70/100 genie split 50:50 vit:mag, you'd be able to push 11 Wind Shields, or ~88 seconds of 5 aps. That would basically allow every other spark to be 5 aps, indefinitely. And that means they'd average 4.5 aps overtime. That kinda means Demon loses about all of its DPS advantage, while still taking more damage.

Okeano - Harshlands

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Um, no. Considering the duration of Wolf Emblem, the 40% is effectively 20%, exactly the same as Sage Wolf Emblem. Not saying that Demon's couldn't go DPH, just that it'd be hilarious for them to do so.

It's effectively 20% if you are looking at DPS over time, but when where your battle usually ends in less than 20 seconds, it offers better spike potential than sage Emblem. Sage mastery offers 0.15 more damage multiplier than demon version. Since Sin should have around 450 DEX end game, you are looking at about 4.9 multiplier of sage vs. 4.75 of demon, which is ~3% difference. In the end, it will be (weapon damage)*(4.9)*(1.35) for sage and (weapon damage)*(4.75)*(1.3) for demon, which gives sage 7% advantage over demon DPH wise. That's a difference, but not enough to put sage far ahead of demon if both puts CoD on.

Verbicide - Dreamweaver

I was honestly wondering the same thing as you OP. I lurked the forums and saw a lot of bashing about going sage, which more aps sounds nice so I think I will end up going Demon, however I feel that sins share a trait with psychics. If you play a psychic, and you don't go with a pure magic build, your dmg is still really epic, and I have a feeling that it is the same with the sin. Sure more aps makes killing a lot faster, however I think if you went sage that you would still kill things quick, just not as quick; kind of like a hybrid psychic. Though I am not entirely sure as this is my main and highest level so I never went sage or demon on any other char before.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Verbicide - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I was honestly wondering the same thing as you OP. I lurked the forums and saw a lot of bashing about going sage, which more aps sounds nice so I think I will end up going Demon, however I feel that sins share a trait with psychics. If you play a psychic, and you don't go with a pure magic build, your dmg is still really epic, and I have a feeling that it is the same with the sin. Sure more aps makes killing a lot faster, however I think if you went sage that you would still kill things quick, just not as quick; kind of like a hybrid psychic. Though I am not entirely sure as this is my main and highest level so I never went sage or demon on any other char before.

This is true. As long as you play and gear your sin right, you can out DPS any other class. Sage or Demon is irrelevant when competing with another class in a PvE manner.
The Sage vs. Demon argument is a Sin vs. Sin argument.