demon/sage please

wilnerpww

whats the best for pve? and pvp? why?
sry if there are already a lot of pots about it
but i didnt find b:cry

Alphae - Lost City

http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php

I would give a +1 for every demon/sage skill you like. Total at the end, and whichever has more points, go that route.

Veno's sage and demon skills are some of the most balanced in the game, and it's a topic that's been beaten to death on these boards.

There are venos that go demon for PvP and PvE, there are venos that go sage for PvP and PvE. It just depends on your playstyle.

wilnerpww

hmm,i knew about ecatomb.net
but i want ur personal opinion
about sage/demon
i think sage is better for pve,like soloing TTs etc
but i am not sure about pvpb:surrender

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

do what alphae said to do if you want to chose what you like best.
if you want to see what other like, search. this topic has been beat to death, you'll be happy with either choice, but if you decide to go dark, dont learn dark ironwood until you do a lot of pvp.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Go demon and be a pure sword or poleblade veno. One-up the axe hoars.

tweakz

The link in the first post is all you want to consider. It's worth your time to spend looking over all skills including ones you wouldn't normally consider like Sage Soul Degeneration.

xxxdsmer

IMO, for PvP demon would be better, and i speak as a demon veno.

sage would be better for PvE and can still PvP.

in HH as a demon veno i end up waiting for the herc to beat the boss to death without a pdef debuff on it because most of the time demon ironwood dont debuff.

sage veno however, could start off the fight by taking 20% of the boss's HP (very early in the fight) with a single skill, then could debuff the boss's pdef for 40% for the entire rest of the fight, whereas demon veno cant do either.

demon veno has a wood resistance debuff addon to venomous scarab, and a ironwood that when it works (not often though), whoever it just worked on is more than likely gona get ate up by whatever pet you're using, and a 3 second freeze effect for frost scarab... all things that would be good for PvP but dont help much with taking down bosses that have 4mil HP.

if your main favorite thing to do is PvE (like doing HH) i'd definitely reccomend sage (i wish i'd went sage alot of the time).

if you're only going to pvp, then mby demon would be better.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

Dont forget demon amp lasts longer, so that's good for soloing bosses too. Only 4 seconds of no amp up. So if you dont have to spam heal you can nearly keep a boss perma-amped.

Mauntille - Heavens Tear

Alphae wrote:

http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php

I would give a +1 for every demon/sage skill you like. Total at the end, and whichever has more points, go that route.

The link in the first post is all you want to consider. It's worth your time to spend looking over all skills including ones you wouldn't normally consider like Sage Soul Degeneration.

Just to add on to these, you may want to look at the costs of the lvl 11 skillbooks as well. Many skills are godly in use but not so friendly on the budget. This may or may not be an issue, but something worth considering for the more casual player.

tweakz

Really there is no need to argue. This has been argued time and again with no clear winner. Then best advice has already been given. Let me point out some flaws, and this is pretty much how it will go if people continue to argue because they're clueless until they realize there is no argument. It's up to you.

xxxdsmer wrote: »

IMO, for PvP demon would be better, and i speak as a demon veno.

In other words: less than half the picture. Most venos like to just spam venemous on boss fights when someone else is tanking: that doesn't make it the best option. Some have argued that we needed vit to be good at PvP but then others came along that were pure mag and showed otherwise. It's an endless argument.

sage would be better for PvE and can still PvP.

Demon Nova -seriously. =s

in HH as a demon veno i end up waiting for the herc to beat the boss to death without a pdef debuff on it because most of the time demon ironwood dont debuff.

That's why you don't get the demon version. There are many skills that shouldn't be upgraded like Genie's Cloud Eruption, Sage Wizard's Dragon's Breath, Wizard's Morning Dew, Veno's Tame Beast, etc. There's also Tangling Mire, and Myriad Rainbow.

sage veno however, could start off the fight by taking 20% of the boss's HP (very early in the fight) with a single skill, then could debuff the boss's pdef for 40% for the entire rest of the fight, whereas demon veno cant do either.

Pointless argument. Demon veno has it's major advantages as well. I'd be happy with either for PvE and PvP.

Vibba - Sanctuary

My main is Demon Veno and I'm not interested in PVP at all (I'm PVE only). I kept the original lvl10 Ironwood, that and Demon Venomous are good debuffers for general grinding, I kill a mob 4-5 lvls higher than me with only 3 skills + my Herc's damage (only using noob +2 Midnight Black). I love the longer Amp for bosses and faster cooldowns on my skills. I'm happy with Demon. Oh and Demon Fox form is the best thing ever, I spam the skill for perma speed buff. Who needs a mount?! :P

xxxdsmer

1) dont pick my posts apart. there is a rock solid logic to them, and you'll only get picked to bits by picking at my posts.

you are welcome to express your opinions, of course. but do not pick my posts apart.

tweakz wrote: »

Really there is no need to argue. This has been argued time and again with no clear winner. Then best advice has already been given. Let me point out some flaws, and this is pretty much how it will go if people continue to argue because they're clueless until they realize there is no argument. It's up to you.

xxxdsmer wrote: »

IMO, for PvP demon would be better, and i speak as a demon veno.

In other words: less than half the picture. Most venos like to just spam venemous on boss fights when someone else is tankingmost venos are too damn lazy to do anything else.: that doesn't make it the best option. Some have argued that we needed vit to be good at PvP but then others came along that were pure mag and showed otherwise. It's an endless argument.and no you dont need vit to be good at pvp. i know several venos that dont have but 3 base vit and kick butt in pvp. moot point for the discussion regardless, b/c the question is about sage or demon, not to vit or not to vit.

xxxdsmer wrote: »

sage would be better for PvE and can still PvP.

Demon Nova -seriously. =s and a sage veno can do nova probably at least twice as often as a demon veno becuase of extra chigain from venomous and sage chi skill. (excluding apoth pots, speaking on just the class itself... but even with pots and such, sage veno could nova more often still, and kill things faster in the long run.

xxxdsmer wrote: »

in HH as a demon veno i end up waiting for the herc to beat the boss to death without a pdef debuff on it because most of the time demon ironwood dont debuff.

That's why you don't get the demon version. There are many skills that shouldn't be upgraded like Genie's Cloud Eruption, Sage Wizard's Dragon's Breath, Wizard's Morning Dew, Veno's Tame Beast, etc. There's also Tangling Mire, and Myriad Rainbow. now tell me why again a wiz, a class thats main purpose is to do lots of damage, wouldnt want their constatnt aoe to be lv11 and do more damage? and if i'm a cleric in a FC squad and i find out the wiz's heal that could save my butt is lv1, i'm kickin that wiz outta the squad... or better yet if i'm the wiz with lv1 heal that could save my own butt in countless situations: /wrist /wrist. and tame beast dosent even have a lv11, so also moot to the discussion about sage/demon veno. and to go specifically to ironwood: why would a demon veno NOT want all their skills leveled up to throw a sutra pot in the mix and fire off 5 lv11 skills at a target before venomous's 6second debuff wore off? but thats not something you'd do everyday in pve unless u loved making pots.

xxxdsmer wrote: »

sage veno however, could start off the fight by taking 20% of the boss's HP (very early in the fight) with a single skill, then could debuff the boss's pdef for 40% for the entire rest of the fight, whereas demon veno cant do either.

Pointless argument. Demon veno has it's major advantages as well. I'd be happy with either for PvE and PvP.and thats your personal preference which you're more than welcome to. i have considered both sides of the cultivation, and there's noone that can tell me a demon veno can solo an HH boss faster than a sage veno. (comparing evenly geared and built sage veno to demon veno). 20% HP debuff (1/5th of the fight already done in a single skill cast.), and an ironwood that works everytime its cast for a 40% debuff, that even beats out lv10 ironwood that you seem to think is better than demon ironwood. there's also sage wood mastery that increases damage on every shot not just when you happen to crit because of a measly 2% crit addon from demon mastery.

point blank hard truth: a sage veno WILL kill a boss faster than an evenly geared demon veno. and a sage veno WILL clear the mobs out faster than an evenly geared demon veno.

thus: sage>demon for pve purposes (especially if you want to be able to do that HH faster , but if speed is no concern and you like waiting for your pet to bash a non-debuffed boss to death even if you can shoot ironwood at it, then either would work.)

express your opinion all you want, but dont try to deconstruct the reasoning behind my opinion that sage is better for pve than demon is. sage will kill the HH's or BH or w/e faster than a demon veno, and i'm not talking about in a squad either. i'm talking where most venos end up at, either just because they can solo things, or b/c ppl foolishly dont want them for squads.

but if you do want to takl in a squad, a sage veno would still be better because there's more chi to pass to others, and oh again, a 40% 20sec ironwood that always works. so not only would sage veno be better for solo pve, its also widely touted as a better supporter in squads (and the 2nd part is the opinion of MANY people, not just me lol.)

====================================================

/endrant.

all of that ^.^ is 2 ppl's opinion, and those that said look at the skills and closely consider the effects of sage or demon, and figure which one(s) would best fit your playstyle, that is the correct answer. yes i'm a demon veno that thinks sage would be better for pve overall. yes i also like being able to move at 9.9m/s to run away from wurlord while someone else sneaks by the other one (in conjunction with holypath ofc). but i know for a fact i could kill things much faster in pve with the sage skillset than i can with the demon skillset.

ultimately its your decision though.

Vibba - Sanctuary

No offence, I don't want to argue, but what if the Sage Veno is faster? So it takes 3 more minutes to kill a boss as Demon... So what? =/ Both sides have crappy damage compared to most high lvl classes, so a few more minutes won't make a huge difference for a Veno when killing a boss or cleaning a dungeon. What is important, both Sage and Demon Veno can tank/kill bosses without having to use HP/MP food or potions and we come out with a low repair fee. We don't even need pet food if we have a tome. Other classes kill a boss faster if they have a good cleric or a crapload of HP food, and we kill slow but we don't need anything for it, only our pet and our healing skills. That's the real advantage of Venos when we solo, we are cheap.

And for squads, I have Cloud Eruption skill on my Genie, it gives me almost 2 sparks, I never had a problem giving sparks and my squadmates always appreciate my debuffing abilities - Demon Amp and 'normal' Ironwood, they can be both kept up pretty well, the downtime is just a few seconds, sometimes I even use Myriad. I am always welcomed in FCC squads because I do my job well.

Demon or Sage, both are equally good for PVE if you know how to play your class.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

Um, i actually like the demon version of ironwood, and im pve only too. Actually soloing things, it pretty much hits alot for me, so i guess thats a good thing.

Silest - Sanctuary

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO
GO SAGE BECAUSE 95% EBBY1 ELSE IZ!


NO WAI GO DEMON! BE A REBEL!!!!!

point blank hard truth: a sage veno WILL kill a boss faster than an evenly geared demon veno. and a sage veno WILL clear the mobs out faster than an evenly geared demon veno.

Get out. you attitude about this subject is what I ranted about in my own topic about sage/demon. It's ****.

but if you do want to takl in a squad, a sage veno would still be better because there's more chi to pass to others.

Oh wait. You got me here.

Oh but wait again! Who KNOWS WHEN THAT OTHER SPARK WILL CARRY! WOO WHOO

Ahem.

If you're strictly a PVE VENO, THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD/MUST/HAVE TO/NEED TO GO SAGE. I dont give a DAMN how "GOOD" either LOOKS compared to another, you pick what you like and thats THAT!

1) dont pick my posts apart. there is a rock solid logic to them, and you'll only get picked to bits by picking at my posts.

They'll pick them apart all they want. Your opinion IS NOT ABSOLUTE.

Desdi - Sanctuary

Vibba - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon or Sage, both are equally good for PVE if you know how to play your class.

This sums it up.

I do believe that Sage is made for squads and defence while Demon is made for solo and offence. This is how I've always seen it, for every single class (except Archers and/or Assassins perhaps) but I consider both equal for PvE. It's just different playstyles.

A good Demon Venomancer will find ways to compensate for what they lack and the same applies for Sage Venomancers. I will not argue that Sage Soul Degeneration > Demon but Sage Amplify Damage and Demon Amplify Damage are pretty much equal, it all depends on situations. Besides, it seems that Amplify Damage can't be used when Soul Degeneration is up as Silest has found out and informed me.
Those who have Demon Ironwood will have a pet with maxed Pierce or the genie skill (Tagline Mire ?). Demon Venomancers will have pots and/or genie skills to have sparks ready when needed. Demon Venomancers will do critical hits more often so the difference of +5% wood damage is not very visible (any concious player will not just stick to a 3% critical hit if they are going Demon/buying Demon Wood Mastery) and I can bring a few more examples.

In my opinion, for squads Sage > Demon (considering they are both good). For general PvE Sage = Demon. For PvP Sage = Demon (now here it ALL depends on how good you are). Needless to say that most Venomancers don't bother with Sage Soul Degeneration and Sage Amplify Damage. The same applies for Demons and their skills.

I know that you were trying to compare a Sage and a Demon with equal equipment xxxdsmer but this is just not possible, it's just a theory. You have to consider what actually happens out there in the game...

LadyMaraJade - Sanctuary

Both Sage & demon have their good and bad points has pointed out But really in the end its really Up to you what you want *To be Sage or to be Demon *and Good luck on what ever you chose to be