Demon masteries stack?

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
edited November 2010 in Wizard
Yes, I know, this thread has been done and done and done. I am not asking for a discussion so much, but just to take a poll to see what people believe.

To me, I don't see any indication that they would stack.

Cleric's metal mastery only applies to metal attacks, right?

Sage wiz masteries don't stack for an extra 15%.

Crit arrow shows up on eye of observation also.

Given all of that, seems like some people are saying that they have to stack or else sage masteries will be better than demon masteries. But isn't demon stone barrier better than sage stone barrier? Why can one type of demon skill be better than the same sage skill, but not vice versa. Why do sage masteries and demon masteries have to be equal when for so many others one is clearly superior to the other?

And add to all that, apparently 3 separate emails have been replied to by perfect world, ALL seeming to indicate that they don't stack.

For the emails, see here:

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=500402&highlight=masteries

Yes, yes, I know that there have been naked demon wizzies out there nuking chickens and what not trying to prove it, but I am not sure how reliable that is when you are looking to track something that only has a 1% chance of occurring in the first place and I don't know how you document and verify that little experiment.

So rather than start arguments here (which I think have taken up enough threads on these forums), I just wanted to take the poll just to see what the consensus opinion is at the present time.
"And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
Post edited by BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur on

Comments

  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Personally I think they don't stack. Me as a demon wizard on p. server I had all 3 mastries +52% critic. But I critics a lot less than 50%.
    But the true nobody knows.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • LifeHunting - Lost City
    LifeHunting - Lost City Posts: 1,105 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Where is the option of "My wiz isn't high enough lvl to comment on these skills"????
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Although Borsuc isn't my favourite poster here, he had a great post about this. Post #14 of this thread: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=853722

    Personally I believe they don't stack but we'd need Deora or someone else who has knowledge about things we are not allowed to discuss here. Or prof, he seems to know about things like that too. I could research it myself as well but I haven't found the skills yet.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »
    Cleric's metal mastery only applies to metal attacks, right?
    Demon version? It applies to all magical attacks.

    They have to stack if this game had any balance. Think about it. Psychics have 2 masteries. Demon versions give 1% crit each. Why would clerics get a better demon mastery than psys?
  • BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Why would clerics get a better demon mastery than psys?

    The same reason Demon stone barrier is better than sage stone barrier.

    And saying why would cleric get a better demon mastery than psychics proves too much. If everything is supposed to be equal, why would demon wizards have better demon mastery (3%) than both clerics and psychics (2%)?

    But I didn't really want to rehash the arguments, just get the poll results.
    "And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
  • CeliaZ - Sanctuary
    CeliaZ - Sanctuary Posts: 901 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »
    The same reason Demon stone barrier is better than sage stone barrier.

    And saying why would cleric get a better demon mastery than psychics proves too much. If everything is supposed to be equal, why would demon wizards have better demon mastery (3%) than both clerics and psychics (2%)?

    But I didn't really want to rehash the arguments, just get the poll results.

    The difference between sage SB and demon SB arent the same as the difference between a mastery with 2% crit and 1% crit. Sage SB is just as good as demon "On paper", however "in-game" it obsiously shows that pdef always is better to have than mdef. However they do both have an increasement of that particular thing of "150%" to one and "120%" to the other. Which makes them the same, sage is just not that suitable for a wizard.

    However 1% crit vs. 2% crit is a difference which shows "on paper", not in-game, which makes this an unfair difference.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver
    HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver Posts: 574 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    personally i think its this way:

    wiz got 3 masteries for 3 attack types so in my understanding modifications on fire mastery modify fire skills water mastery water skills and earth mastery earth skills. You dont get additional dmg on water skills when you increase fire mastery so also the effect of sage additional % dmg only works for the element tree where the used skill belongs to. The 5% more dmg each would lead to a 15% more dmg in total for sage if you think that sage/demon skill effects stack which they dont do for sage so why should the 1% additional crit chance for demon stack then? To make it even clearer lets assume a player has sage/demon water mastery and fire mastery but not earth mastery then the dmg should be that way

    skill used sage / demon
    waters spells 25% / 20% critrate+1%
    fire spells 25% / 20% critrate +1%
    earth spells 20% / 20% critrate

    greetz harm0wnie
  • BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The difference between sage SB and demon SB arent the same as the difference between a mastery with 2% crit and 1% crit. Sage SB is just as good as demon "On paper", however "in-game" it obsiously shows that pdef always is better to have than mdef. However they do both have an increasement of that particular thing of "150%" to one and "120%" to the other. Which makes them the same, sage is just not that suitable for a wizard.

    However 1% crit vs. 2% crit is a difference which shows "on paper", not in-game, which makes this an unfair difference.

    But then demon wiz masteries would apply to ALL of the demon wizzies attack skills, but demon cleric mastery would only apply to the demon cleric's metal skills? No crit for plume shot?

    How is that "fair"? Even "on paper".

    The fact is, you can't really say they must stack because it must be fair when sooooo much of everything else in this game doesn't really work that way.

    HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

    skill used sage / demon
    waters spells 25% / 20% critrate+1%
    fire spells 25% / 20% critrate +1%
    earth spells 20% / 20% critrate

    Damn, I wanna be demon for 20% crit rate on earth attacks!!!!

    JK, know you intended

    earth spells 20% / 20%
    "And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
  • Mumintroll - Heavens Tear
    Mumintroll - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,393 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »
    But then demon wiz masteries would apply to ALL of the demon wizzies attack skills, but demon cleric mastery would only apply to the demon cleric's metal skills? No crit for plume shot?

    How is that "fair"? Even "on paper".

    The fact is, you can't really say they must stack because it must be fair when sooooo much of everything else in this game doesn't really work that way.

    Exactly. The game is far away from balance.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Magiere - Dreamweaver
    Magiere - Dreamweaver Posts: 395 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Demon version? It applies to all magical attacks.

    They have to stack if this game had any balance. Think about it. Psychics have 2 masteries. Demon versions give 1% crit each. Why would clerics get a better demon mastery than psys?

    Because it only works for HALF of our attacks...
    The crit stack for demon metal master does not work on Plume Short, or Razor Feathers..thats the whole point for having 2%, while others have 1.
    Originally written by Satchiko to me regarding old spice commercial :
    Hello Perfect World. Look at your cleric, now back to me, now back to your cleric, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me. But if you stopped being a noob and started wearing sunglasses you could act like you're me. Look down, back up, where are you? You're on Dreamweaver with the cleric your cleric could be like. What's in your hand, back at me. It's an inventory filled with the gear you want. Look again, the gear is now diamonds. Anything is possible with sunglasses. I'm flying on starter wings.
  • BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Because it only works for HALF of our attacks...
    The crit stack for demon metal master does not work on Plume Short, or Razor Feathers..thats the whole point for having 2%, while others have 1.

    GET D'EM DEMON WIZZIES, CLERICS!!! FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

    ^already said this, but good to know I'm not alone . . . .
    "And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »
    But then demon wiz masteries would apply to ALL of the demon wizzies attack skills, but demon cleric mastery would only apply to the demon cleric's metal skills? No crit for plume shot?
    Why not? Where do you draw that from? I said all magical attacks -- sorry to break it to you but plume shot is a magical attack too, that's why it uses your base magic attack and magic attack from weapon.

    Magic =/= elemental. Plume shot is magic too.

    Cleric mastery gives 2% to ALL magical attacks, including plume shot.
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »
    The same reason Demon stone barrier is better than sage stone barrier.
    Explain?

    Demon gives 150% phys 120% earth, sage gives 150% earth 120% phys, seem the same to me, except that one favors phys over earth. I mean they shouldn't be the same right? But same numbers.
    Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Because it only works for HALF of our attacks...
    The crit stack for demon metal master does not work on Plume Short, or Razor Feathers..thats the whole point for having 2%, while others have 1.
    How did you come to this conclusion? Have you done tests?

    Description says: Demon version increases critical hit rate by 2%.

    I don't see metal in there.
  • Magiere - Dreamweaver
    Magiere - Dreamweaver Posts: 395 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    ...

    By been playing a different official PW version, were the skill description says "increasing the crit rate by 2% for all metal skills/arts."

    If that isn't enough for you, how about trying some logic?
    Metal Mastery does not increase plume shot damage by leveling the mastery itself.
    Why would metal mastery then suddenly adds a bonus to a skill that does not use that passive bonus to begin with?
    Originally written by Satchiko to me regarding old spice commercial :
    Hello Perfect World. Look at your cleric, now back to me, now back to your cleric, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me. But if you stopped being a noob and started wearing sunglasses you could act like you're me. Look down, back up, where are you? You're on Dreamweaver with the cleric your cleric could be like. What's in your hand, back at me. It's an inventory filled with the gear you want. Look again, the gear is now diamonds. Anything is possible with sunglasses. I'm flying on starter wings.
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Because 5% more damage = +5 attack level
    2% more crit = +2% crit


    +5 atk level > +2% crit
  • HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver
    HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver Posts: 574 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    By been playing a different official PW version, were the skill description says "increasing the crit rate by 2% for all metal skills/arts."

    If that isn't enough for you, how about trying some logic?
    Metal Mastery does not increase plume shot damage by leveling the mastery itself.
    Why would metal mastery then suddenly adds a bonus to a skill that does not use that passive bonus to begin with?
    i also think its that way and its also the same for wiz skills like i explained before so

    before sage/demon:
    20% dmg from fire/water/earth mastery with players normal critrate
    when using a fire/water/earth skill

    sage( with 3 masteries):
    25% dmg from fire/water/earthmastery with players normal critrate
    when using a fire/water earth skill

    demon( with 3 masteries):
    20% dmg from fire/water/earthmastery with +1% additional critrate to normal critrate
    when using a fire/water/earth skill
  • BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    "Where do you draw that from?"

    I merely asked questions, so i didn't really draw anything. The fact that you viewed the mere question as an indictment is at least some inclination that you recognize the imbalance somewhat.

    Where to you draw that cleric mastery gives 2% to all magical attacks? And even if you are correct, if the game is to be so "equal", why would clerics get 2% to all magic attacks and wizards get 3%? This game is not equal, and certainly not designed to be equal within demon/sage versions of skills. There whole threads here comparing the demon version of a wiz skill with the sage version and commenting on which is better. But by your logic, all those skills are equal? Everyone is wrong but you? And if they are right, and some demon skills are better/worse than their sage counterparts, don't you see the folly of concluding that demon masteries must stack or else the sage masteries would be better?

    As for explaining why demon stone barrier is better than sage stone barrier, you don't REALLY need me to explain that, do you? As for saying one gives 150% and the other gives 120% means they are the same, you could say the same for the masteries - sage masteries stack too then. WOOT, +15% damage for sage. And not that with wizard masteries, you are comparing crit to % damage increase, not defense to defense, etc. Which is pretty much my point: you can't draw conclusions as to whether the game calculates damage this way or that way by logic because you have to (a) assume that the skills were intended to be different but logically "equal" in terms of game "power"; and (b) you have to then (in many cases) figure out how to logically compare apples (crit %) and oranges (+5% damage) AND in the same way the programmers did. All of which I submit is impossible to know, or at least thus far unproven and likely "unprovable".

    Therefore, demon masteries stacking or not is not (at this point) so much a science, but an article of faith. Which explains why 100% of demon wizards believe they stack (in spite of no less than 3 responses from GMs posted on these forums all saying they don't stack), when (at least thus far) the balance of players are somewhat divided on the question.

    Again, my point is not to say they do or they don't (although obviously I have my opinion which is to say that noone can say for certain, but the great weight of reliable evidence seems to indicate that they do not). I just wanted to see where the consensus of opinion was on the matter as that seemed to be something that (thus far) these forums had not addressed.
    "And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    I didn't know any GMs actually confirmed it, but it wouldn't be the first time they don't know and just say stuff.

    IF it stacks, we get 3% because we have to learn 3 skills? Besides it's impossible to balance this without going fractions, which I suppose the game doesn't support.

    But then again, same thing with venos, they get 2% from Wood mastery in normal form, and 3% in fox form (that specifically states it only applies to fox form). I mean seriously, any kind of logic for not stacking here? (notice in normal form hitting with auto-attacks no crit bonus applies at all, that's why it doesn't show on C screen)

    Personally from these numbers, my assumption is that they stack and there's no question about it. They COULD theoretically **** wizards and psychics over, but I just doubt it.

    And there was a guy testing it on rams for a few hours and said masteries stack so... closest thing to a test I guess.



    EDIT: Really now, if you do say that it only applies to one type of attack in cleric's case (metal), guess what, same thing with sage masteries. There is no physical sage mastery is there?

    So why sage mastery for clerics does NOT give 30% more damage? Why does it give also 25% just like wizards' case or basically any magic class?

    Why are sage masteries always the same but demon not? You just have to think a bit, it's not like they put totally random numbers out of their asses, that much is certain.
  • BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I didn't know any GMs actually confirmed it...

    I gave the link to the forums. They confirmed it 3 times.

    I suppose all 3 posters could have lied . . . .
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    it wouldn't be the first time they don't know and just say stuff.

    vs
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    They COULD theoretically **** wizards and psychics over, but I just doubt it.

    vs
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    it's not like they put totally random numbers out of their asses, that much is certain.

    You seem to say they don't know what they are talking about, but then doubt that they would **** wizards and pulled random numbers? If they are idiots, then they would **** wizards randomly. If they are not, then you should probably believe the 3 times they have answered that they don't stack.

    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    And there was a guy testing it on rams for a few hours and said masteries stack so... closest thing to a test I guess.

    Yea, this was the naked wizzie comment I made in the original post.
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    So why sage mastery for clerics does NOT give 30% more damage? Why does it give also 25% just like wizards' case or basically any magic class?

    Again, I don't pretend to know whether they stack or not. I just don't think others should pretend to know that they do.
    "And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    We seem to have a confusion here. b:laugh

    When I was talking about "them" pulling numbers, I was talking about the devs. GMs don't affect skill balance and stuff like that. :p
  • Proski - Archosaur
    Proski - Archosaur Posts: 936 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    strange... on the PH version on ecatomb it says:

    Critical rate of all fire arts increased by 2%.
    Critical rate of all water arts increased by 2%.
    Critical rate of all earth arts increased by 2%.


    maybe it really was 1% to each element at some point and they figured it to be a little on the weaksauce side so they upped it to 2% per mastery, or in other words 2% to all magic attacks

    :edit: ........ or it really was 3% stacking, since the only way to find the middle ground between overpowered (3%) and worthless (1%) would be to put 2% per element aka all magic attacks. can't really divide 2% by 3 without it looking **** as hell on the skill description haha
  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited November 2010
    in the year~ I've had my demon passives, I've notice a signicant increase in critials from before I had them. test with and without other crit gear, 1,000 hits each way.

    without gear(1% crit)
    389/1000 hits crit
    with gear(8% crit)
    681/1000 hits crit

    but this was a friends idea to do, as I don't see field testing in a luck-dependant factor conclusive, her results weren't far off

    without gear(1% crit)
    340/1000 hits crit
    with gear(7% crit)
    599/1000 hits crit
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    prof wrote: »
    in the year~ I've had my demon passives, I've notice a signicant increase in critials from before I had them. test with and without other crit gear, 1,000 hits each way.

    without gear(1% crit)
    389/1000 hits crit
    with gear(8% crit)
    681/1000 hits crit

    but this was a friends idea to do, as I don't see field testing in a luck-dependant factor conclusive, her results weren't far off

    without gear(1% crit)
    340/1000 hits crit
    with gear(7% crit)
    599/1000 hits crit

    am I reading this right?
    389/1000 = 38.9% crit.
    681/1000 = 68.1% crit

    something isn't adding up! b:sad
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
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  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited November 2010
    as i said in my post, it's luck dependent, i don't consider it valid proof. just something i have saved in msn chatlogs. b:bye
  • BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur
    BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur Posts: 1,842 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    +5 atk level > +2% crit


    And 150% physical defense > 150% earth defense, but you dismissed that as equal above in reference to demon vs sage stone barrier.

    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    am I reading this right?
    389/1000 = 38.9% crit.
    681/1000 = 68.1% crit

    Yes, I wasn't sure what this was to prove, except when maybe muminT posted elsewhere that the crit % is a bunch of **** and has no correlation as to how often you actually crit, mathematically speaking.
    "And as for bragging, I don't need to brag. I am famous, yo. My accomplishments are legendary. I am BLOODMYSTIC, speaker of truth, bane of the Barbarians of Impulse, slayer of the **** of Narla, liberator of all the free peoples of the Archosaur server, former master propagandist for our leader in freedom, Proski, and Archtroll of the PWI Forums. And now? Amiable pve wizard, beloved by all, aka BLUEMYSTIC. Pleased to make your acquaintance."
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited November 2010
    prof wrote: »
    as i said in my post, it's luck dependent, i don't consider it valid proof. just something i have saved in msn chatlogs. b:bye

    thats pretty impressive, I don't remember critting 39% of the time with only 1% crit.
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • prof
    prof Posts: 1,111
    edited November 2010
    you're holy, you don't have a magical +3% crit you can't see.

    a few friends and I believe it to be glitched, though. there is no '1% magic crit' mod/effect in the database, there is a 3%, 5%, 10%, 15% and 20% mod that don't appear in your character screen, though. so it's either 3-5% for each, or 3-5% total.
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