Gold discussion... again
Comments
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Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »Ok, reading through all this **** of people who only see half the picture. The prices are not the fault of the sellers, NOR are they the fault of the buyers. The fault lies entirely with PWE.
Brilliantly articulated post Dark.0 -
No fear!PWI staff is working on it!!!
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3533372&postcount=1
Since 07-30-2009 b:chuckle[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks Brit for the sig b:laugh0 -
The problem, though, is that as soon as you allow people freedom to interact with one another you're immediately going to find that there's no such thing as "equal" effort. Some people are going to put in a lot of "dumb" effort, then wonder why they have so little to show for it, while others put in "smart" effort and get way ahead of the pack.Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Now I do get what you guys meant, and yes, I'm a "communist" in games, but simply based on effort: equal effort, equal gains, as a rule of thumb.
Single player RPGs are designed so that no matter how stupid you are, no matter how badly you plan things out, and no matter how horrible your skills, you're always the biggest hero in the universe who eventually will defeat everybody else.
That just won't work, though, when you're in a world with other real people who are playing smarter than you.
Games like that do exist. They generally lock down any player trade and force everybody to farm everything for themselves. There's certainly nothing wrong with preferring those kinds of games, but personally I'd also rather play something competitive sometimes.Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Eh not without effort. What's so bad about having a traditional-style RPG but with a large community? In a normal RPG you could get all stuff by yourself, didn't have to rely on others' to trade (although that would be convenient often it wasn't NEEDED).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »The problem, though, is that as soon as you allow people freedom to interact with one another you're immediately going to find that there's no such thing as "equal" effort. Some people are going to put in a lot of "dumb" effort, then wonder why they have so little to show for it, while others put in "smart" effort and are get way ahead of the pack.
Single player RPGs are designed so that no matter how stupid you are, no matter how badly you plan things out, and no matter how horrible your skills, you're always the biggest hero in the universe who eventually will defeat everybody else.
That just won't work, though, when you're in a world with other real people who are playing smarter than you.
Games like that do exist. They generally lock down any player trade and force everybody to farm everything for themselves. There's certainly nothing wrong with preferring those kinds of games, but personally I'd also rather play something competitive sometimes.
I would like to know what your idea of "smart" effort is ? .
Ususaly in these type of games i would take that to mean greedy players who think only of them selves and not the group as a whole. Take group to mean anything from a playing partner to a whole faction.
Ive played MMO's where factions/guilds work together to become strong and greedy players are soon spoted and booted. Also equal effort does exist when a guild is dedicated enougth. Maybe not in pug's but certainly in /faction/guild groups.
However any FTP game that uses a cash shop sytem is never going to be balanced and why should it be when the source of income relys on people obtaining the best though real cash .
This IMHO is where pay to play offers the better in game experience. Yes people will be greedy in any MMO but they stand out like a soare thumb and eventualy play solo cause no guild or group will help them unless there lucky enough to find a guild full of selfish people .0 -
There's a bit more to it than that. There's a sense of fairness and what constitutes ripping off other people, and the cost it incurs on society overall. Zoe believes the price for an item should be based on how difficult it was to acquire an item, not on what you can get for the item. If you think of the world (or your group, like a guild) as a single entity, then this makes sense. If a caster gets a great melee item, it benefits the guild overall most if the caster just gives it to a melee player. That's actually the way I play in-guild. It's a pointless run-around for the caster to get the great melee item and hold it, wait for the melee to get a great caster item, then the two meet up to trade. It's more efficient for the caster to just give the melee the melee item when he gets it, and the melee to give the caster the caster item when he gets it.WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »But Zoe is coming from a perspective of "the Haves vs. the Have-Nots"
The Have-Nots look at rich people who have lots of stuff (be it Gold, coins, items, etc...) and feel that they should have equal access to that wealth. It's not fair, they feel, for the Haves to keep getting more and more.
Where this falls apart though is when there is more than one group, and people are free to switch between groups. Selling stuff (or giving it away) based on effort needed to acquire, without taking into account what benefit it brings, improperly values the item. You end up undervaluing items which are useful, and overvaluing items which are useless. So it destroys the primary mechanism to encourage improvement by, on average, causing more useless items to be acquired while fewer useful items are acquired. Proper valuation has to take into account both difficulty to acquire, and usefulness to the end user. Groups which don't practice proper valuation quickly find themselves getting taken advantage of and looted, while groups which do practice it grow and thrive. So in general, competition > cooperation.
That said, I play that way in-guild because even this is not the end of it. There are certain situations, fairly common in many cases, where cooperation > competition. It's why altruism exists in real life. In certain situations, you really are better off cooperating rather than competing. The prisoner's dilemma and tragedy of the commons are two good examples. I won't go into them, you can read up on them if you wish.
So the real key lies in correctly identifying the type of situation you're in. Is it one where competition > cooperation? Or is it one where cooperation > competition? And acting accordingly. (Even this is not always easy. In the prisoner's dilemma, for both parties to arrive at the best outcome, both have to cooperate. If you cooperate and the other person backstabs you, you get screwed over badly. I play the way I do in-guild because I like the social bond of playing with people I know will not backstab me.)
Most socialist/communists I've met make the mistake of thinking that cooperation > competition applies to all situations, not just the subset I've outlined above.
And most free market capitalists I've met make the mistake of thinking that competition > cooperation in all situations, not knowing about the situations I've outlined above.
Because if you let everyone get everything by themselves in an MMORPG, it ceases to be a true RPG. It becomes a FPS. There is no point to planning your character's development because at the end it will be just the same as everyone else's character, just like in a FPS.Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »Eh not without effort. What's so bad about having a traditional-style RPG but with a large community? In a normal RPG you could get all stuff by yourself, didn't have to rely on others' to trade (although that would be convenient often it wasn't NEEDED).
I think you may be thinking of single-player CRPGs as the definitive standard for RPGs. They are not. Pen and paper RPGs are (were) designed to mimic real life, both in flexibility and in outcome. The decisions you make have consequences - short term, long term, and sometimes permanently. Certain actions will forever cut off certain paths you can take and certain items you could acquire. That permanence and finality is what gives RPGs an edge over many other types of games. That's why a quest system which really affects the game-world (e.g. if you fail to save the village from the attacking wraith, the village and its NPCs will no longer be there in the future) has been the holy grail for MMORPGs.
If you want a MM game where you are guaranteed to be able to obtain anything with enough time, an RPG is not it.0 -
That's the problem that affects gold prices and makes them demanding for gameplay. It is a problem where cash shop is not just for convenience anymore. There ARE f2p games out there where you can get everything you want by grinding, a lot mind you, but you still can. Cash shop is simply the "easy way out", kind of like hypers. Even the "cash shop potions" are craftable in-game, for example... but for someone who doesn't like to farm herbs, well, there's that credit card of course.FiDollaYou - Sanctuary wrote: »There is absolutely nothing in this game that you can't get if you put in enough time and effort. However, there ARE things in the game that you cannot get without someone (you or someone else) buying Cash Shop items. Either you buy Gold from the company, or you buy gold/boutique items from someone else. Technically you CAN get everything without ever interacting with another person in the game, but it'll probably cost you a goodly chunk of RL cash. It's not optimum, and probably not all that fun, but if that's the way you choose to play, well more power to ya. As for having to depend on the cash shop for some items, well, welcome to F2P - they're going to make money some way or another.
However, you are right that it is not possible to get everything in game without either spending IRL cash or interacting with other players. Tough luck. Maybe others are right, and a single player game is more your style.
IMO that's how it should be done, then maybe people won't QQ as much about gold prices anymore (which reflect that anyway, the reason they are so high), since they can be told to always farm it themselves.
By effort I simply mean an instance that is farmed and drops certain thing. Or rather, things that no matter how many other people there you can still always farm it yourself. Efficient or not, doing it 3 times slower or not, it should still be possible, that is all.WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »The problem, though, is that as soon as you allow people freedom to interact with one another you're immediately going to find that there's no such thing as "equal" effort. Some people are going to put in a lot of "dumb" effort, then wonder why they have so little to show for it, while others put in "smart" effort and get way ahead of the pack.
Single player RPGs are designed so that no matter how stupid you are, no matter how badly you plan things out, and no matter how horrible your skills, you're always the biggest hero in the universe who eventually will defeat everybody else.
That just won't work, though, when you're in a world with other real people who are playing smarter than you.
Not saying that people WILL farm everything themselves... same as now, some people prefer to sell TT2-3 mats to buy other mats, even though they CAN farm it themselves. Just convenience. Trading should be for convenience only.
Why not? There is multiple builds, multiple forms of gear from which you can choose, multiple sharding choices even. And there should be more to satisfy what people want. CSers already get them anyway. Plus I'm mostly talking about refining and cash shop exclusive stuff. There isn't much customization to be had here anyway!Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »Because if you let everyone get everything by themselves in an MMORPG, it ceases to be a true RPG. It becomes a FPS. There is no point to planning your character's development because at the end it will be just the same as everyone else's character, just like in a FPS.
I think you may be thinking of single-player CRPGs as the definitive standard for RPGs. They are not. Pen and paper RPGs are (were) designed to mimic real life, both in flexibility and in outcome. The decisions you make have consequences - short term, long term, and sometimes permanently. Certain actions will forever cut off certain paths you can take and certain items you could acquire. That permanence and finality is what gives RPGs an edge over many other types of games. That's why a quest system which really affects the game-world (e.g. if you fail to save the village from the attacking wraith, the village and its NPCs will no longer be there in the future) has been the holy grail for MMORPGs.
If you want a MM game where you are guaranteed to be able to obtain anything with enough time, an RPG is not it.0 -
A really obvious and common example would be grinding for quest related items.ChopChop - Raging Tide wrote: »I would like to know what your idea of "smart" effort is ? .
Ususaly in these type of games i would take that to mean greedy players who think only of them selves and not the group as a whole. Take group to mean anything from a playing partner to a whole faction.
The majority of the player-base will choose to go out and grind on certain mobs that drop the items they need, regardless of how inefficient this activity is.
When it's pointed out to them that they could instead simply sell their surplus items to others who need them, then use the proceeds to purchase the items they require from others who have a surplus, the usual response is to complain, "no way, they're charging rip-off prices! I'll just get it for free!"
So in the end, a majority of players choose the inefficient, slow path because their own personal greed is preventing them from paying for something that they feel they ought to get for cheap and/or free, while those who have no problems with paying fair market price end up having a much easier time in the game.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
Good example, but it works because the specific item, say a crafting mat, is in low demand. People have a lot of surplus for it and are trying to get rid of.WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »A really obvious and common example would be grinding for quest related items.
The majority of the player-base will choose to go out and grind on certain mobs that drop the items they need, regardless of how inefficient this activity is.
When it's pointed out to them that they could instead simply sell their surplus items to others who need them, then use the proceeds to purchase the items they require from others who have a surplus, the usual response is to complain, "no way, they're charging rip-off prices! I'll just get it for free!"
So in the end, a majority of players choose the inefficient, slow path because their own personal greed is preventing them from paying for something that they feel they ought to get for cheap and/or free, while those who have no problems with paying fair market price end up having a much easier time in the game.
However if it was in as much demand as other drops from said mobs (let's ignore the DQs and coins for inflation), its price would skyrocket to react to the other drops... where you would trade 1:1 ratio, or get as much worth on it.
Heck you can even buy the mats from the boutique, for the lazy/stupid people... but at least you can still farm them yourself. Not saying that you WILL, even if you BUY them from other players, it means THEY farmed them. And many grind but don't want them, getting a surplus. If they never dropped in the first place, this wouldn't be possible. This is why the possibility of farming everything is important, even if you won't farm everything all by yourself, which you shouldn't anyway.
Now demand for gold is high, because there are certain things, gameplay-altering even, that you can only get from the boutique. That is the main problem and why it is different. Because people who QQ about prices of gold aren't the ones who benefit from having cheaper access from boutique/packs than normal gear farming... it's the ones who need something that is boutique-exclusive... packs rise gold prices for everything boutique-related for instance, making it hard to obtain D.Orbs or whatever else.0 -
Greed in itself is considered a sin, not a crime. I bring this up because the concept itself is subjective and implies moral values. Comunism and Fascism both seek to impose a certain standard of morality through government. Now, this is all, while a worthy topic of discussion in itself, irrelevant to an MMO's economic model.
Most participants in any economic model will act on what they best perceive to be their best interest. I personally find it inapropiate that some players get upset at the actions of others when no nominal game rule (yes, this is a game) has been broken. A designer (and i mean the devs, not the publisher) should be aware there will always be a group of people that will exploit whatever game conditions can provide them an advantage. This is esentially a design issue then, and not anything that relates to whatever people consider to be fair or sporting behaviour. We all have different playstyles. Some people role play or look for an immersive experience when soloing. Others speak 1337 and consider gaming an extension of cyberculture. I may find both extremes annoying myself but the truth is probably most of us do a little bit of both without fully realizing it.
Hyperinflation or any other economic condition that affects the player base are design issues. It is the responsability of the developer to design an economic model that will work for the majority of players. And to provide the publisher with sufficient metrics and an ability to effect small tweaks and changes that deviations can be identified and dealt with. Most players can no more impact economic conditions on their own that they could in real life. And those players whose wealth affords them the oportunity can only do so on a short term basis, as even a virtual billionaire would be hard pressed to fight economic trends that arise from conditions set in by the publisher/developer (such as pack sales) so we really should stop demeaning or scapegoating sets of players.0 -
Sneaky - Dreamweaver wrote: »honestly blame the CSers lol. its there RL money stoof thad u wanna take over wich is called *gold*
not to judge them but if i wanna trade RL mooneh for pixel mooneh i would put it up thad igh also .___.
It's exactly the opposite, blame the people buying the gold with in game coin, if they weren't driving the prices up, or there were more people using real money and selling it for coin to drive the prices back down, tada, gold prices dropping.b:shutupb:shutup[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Another wall of text completed.0 -
D.Orbs might be a bad example, since refining can be done for a fraction of the cost of D.Orbs by using Mirages instead (and some Tienkang/Tishas, but even with sky-high Gold prices the Mirages are still by far the majority of the cost), however I understand your general point and for the most part I agree with it.Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »This is why the possibility of farming everything is important, even if you won't farm everything all by yourself, which you shouldn't anyway.
Now demand for gold is high, because there are certain things, gameplay-altering even, that you can only get from the boutique. That is the main problem and why it is different. Because people who QQ about prices of gold aren't the ones who benefit from having cheaper access from boutique/packs than normal gear farming... it's the ones who need something that is boutique-exclusive... packs rise gold prices for everything boutique-related for instance, making it hard to obtain D.Orbs or whatever else.
I definitely felt the game went downhill when Anniversary Packs first came out for exactly the reasons you describe. A game in which the cash-shop can help you become more efficient, but is not the exclusive source of high-end items, is certainly more fun because it creates a more interesting economy.
Back in the early days of PWI the marketing department used to tout the fact that the cash-shop was convenience and vanity oriented. They hailed it as the magic-formula for their success, as opposed to other failing F2P games that had cash-shops filled with uber-gear. Times certainly changed.
But that being said, PWI has been pretty resilient. It's kinda lame that the cash-shop is where all the best stuff comes from, but on the other hand PWI's system of freely allowing people to buy and sell Gold mitigates this in comparison to most F2P games that are cash-shop dependent. People get upset at high Gold prices, but if F2P players weren't generating so much coin and buying so much Gold then the prices wouldn't be high, so in that sense the system is working.
What's flawed about the system, though, is that PWI sets arbitrary exchange rates for various items. Thus whatever is the most valuable item in the cash-shop sets the current exchange rate for all items, leaving people who want less in-demand cash shop items out in the cold. With Packs in the cash-shop, the result is that 98% of the cash-shop only items end up being over-priced.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
hate to break it to you but gold is only that high because players choose to buy Gold at that price. Put simply, if you dont want to pay for high gold dont buy it. Have to admit though suprised it hasn't gone down considering the huge amount of coin from TW that was used to purchase charms. It could be possible that the TW changes did not take money out of the game at all, maybe players are just working harder to get that coin. (on your server at least)0
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Charms haven't been much of a factor in Gold exchange rates in a long, long time. The last time they had any major effect was nearly 1 1/2 years ago, but then Jolly Jones appeared followed by Chest of Coins, then Anniversary PacksSecretGem - Heavens Tear wrote: »Have to admit though suprised it hasn't gone down considering the huge amount of coin from TW that was used to purchase charms. It could be possible that the TW changes did not take money out of the game at all, maybe players are just working harder to get that coin. (on your server at least)
As a merchant I get to see what sells and what doesn't, and it's literally all about Packs these days. I sell more Packs than all other cash-shop items combined, by far.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
Packs r great to sell cause u will always have some ppl that think they will get lucky and get a scroll of tome or some ubber gear like it[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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high gold =
people want to buy stuff in the boutique
or not so many ppl buy gold with zen
or too many cash is made in-game (double drops?)0 -
Yeah that was kinda my point... you need certain things available from boutique only to compete in PvP.ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »high gold =
people want to buy stuff in the boutique
And theoretically yes you can use mirages only but... random sucks and some people don't like to rely on luck (since the item also fails back to +0!). Plus they are much less efficient after +8. I've wasted like 800 mirages to get +4 on 3 items, and maybe 20 tienkangs or more for the +3->+4 (event gold though). It was +1/+0/+1/+0 80% of the time b:infuriated0 -
Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »Not at all. The ones selling have the ability to NOT sell for a higher price. Raising the price just because they can is simply being greedy.
There is no "supply and demand" there is simply greedy people raising prices. It does not matter if you have the only item on a server that the rest of the server wants, does that force you to sell it for an obscene price? No. You, as the seller, have the unique ability to NOT sell for a high price. To not use this ability, only reveals your greed.
You are such an idiot Zoe, every post you make is full of foolishness.0 -
Blame people conned into buying overpriced tiger packs, while believing they are getting a good deal for them.
<Made over 100 mil from those people from this event lol.0
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