Pet damage on [?] bosses

kenlee

I was just looking at some random screenshots that I took in the past year or more fighting astral walker naught and null (2-2 and 2-3). Since pet doesn't have average damage, just fixed damage (physical attack in window stats), was easy to calculate how much is the damage reduction on bosses at different levels, pet having different physical attack.

Obviously at zero damage reduction a pet would do the same damage as its physical attack displayed in stats window. Since those bosses mentioned above do have physical defense, those bosses actually have a damage reduction. I assumed that damage reduction is always the same because a pet does full damage to a [?] boss.

Here is some data I had from my random screenshots:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/4262/herculedr.jpg
explanation:
- first screenshot has a lvl 90 herc doing 1959 damage to Astralwalker:Naught, pet having 2672 physical attack at that lvl
- there are blank cells for damage because I dont have a screenshot for that
- DR is damage reduction counting damage done by pet and his physical attack

As I can see, damage reduction isn't a fixed value like i thought. I used lvl 150 pet but I dont have one. Those DR numbers (18% and 19%) are the real damage reduction numbers for Astral:Naught having 1344 pdef and Astral:Null having 1468pdef and I believe only a lvl 150 pet would achieve that.

So as a conclusion, my pet was never doing full damage on [?] bosses. As closer as I get to 150, that much I can be closer to the DR calculated using just boss physical defense.
Probably there is something wrong or my calculations are wrong.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

I had always thought that the damage reduction for a (?) boss was applied BEFORE phys or elemental reductions were taken into account. Full damage by pets meaning only that they bypass this first step in the process. I don't think i fully understand what you're trying to say here, but apparently you think some sort of extra reduction is still being used? b:question

Solandri - Heavens Tear

1. Def damage reduction varies slightly depending on level of the attacker. It's def/(def+40*lvl).

2. Your pet's loyalty was probably >500 when taking those screenshots. So it's actual patk is 120% what's listed in the pet's stats.

3. It's a misnomer that pets do "full damage" against [?] bosses. There's a chart on pwdatabase which shows player damage reduction based on level difference. If the mob is >40 levels higher than the player, the player only does 25% of their normal damage. Since [?] mobs are level 150 and the level cap is 105, [?] mobs are always at least 45+ levels higher than players, and so players always do 25% of their normal damage against them. Pets do not get this reduction.

4. I've been wondering if pets get the regular level-based ATK/DEF modification. After doing some calcs and looking at your data, it appears that pets do not get this modifier for regular melee attacks.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=9805402#post9805402

Simply applying (1) to the patk and mob def figures gives damage numbers within 1% of what you saw. It's consistently 0.627%-0.698% lower than the damage you saw, except for level 98 which blips at 0.880%. So (1) pretty much explains the level-based variance you're seeing.

The difference in your observed vs. calculated damage is less than 1% so there's probably some roundoff going on somewhere. However, I ignored (2) and used your pet's regular patk. Are you sure your pet's loyalty was between 250-500 in those screenshots?

Also, were there any debuffs on the bosses?

kenlee

thanks for that, forgot that pet does 120% at full loyalty. counting 120% instead of 100% because of loyalty is the same multiplier for all so i guess it isnt that. when atk is 120% of base value this prove that the difference is even higher that it should be. real damage reduction should be around 18% (at lvl 150 maybe?) and i get like 39-37% (rounded) from lvl 90 to 100. so 39% DR for lvl 90, 37% DR for 100 and maybe 18% for lvl 150?

lvl difference is higher than 40 but since the difference isnt 25%, its less, i guess its not that either.

pet always had full loyalty and never applied debuffs to astralwaker since i wanted to stay away from mobs range

even the difference between 39% and 37% isnt right, if boss had other physical defense then this damage reduction from 90 to 100 should stay the same couting that there is no lvl penalty for pets

kenlee

btw, since all my physical debuffs are all armor breaks (100% pdef reduction) a pet should do his full attack on debuffed mobs/bosses.

my lvl 100 herc has 3210 physical attack. with armor break does 3237 damage to any mob/boss on the map without counting other debuffs (just armor break)
this proves that a pet does his full damage, same damage to any target that has armor break but also has full loyalty. 3237 is so close to 3210 that brings some other questions. does 120% atk doesnt come in this equation or do we get the full attack (including 120%) in display window? even if we get pe full attack in stats window maybe its not displayed correctly?
i think stats just lowered in display window on my ranged pet after went from full loyalty to zero

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Deliberately replying to these out of order.

kenlee wrote: »

bmy lvl 100 herc has 3210 physical attack. with armor break does 3237 damage to any mob/boss on the map without counting other debuffs (just armor break)
this proves that a pet does his full damage, same damage to any target that has armor break but also has full loyalty. 3237 is so close to 3210 that brings some other questions. does 120% atk doesnt come in this equation or do we get the full attack (including 120%) in display window? even if we get pe full attack in stats window maybe its not displayed correctly?

That's really interesting. I know you get the 20% bonus at lower levels because it made a pretty big difference when I first started playing (made me think one pet was better than another when in fact the difference was loyalty). Honestly I haven't looked closely at the damage at high level or against TT bosses. I'll keep an eye out for it, thanks.

i think stats just lowered in display window on my ranged pet after went from full loyalty to zero

Don't think I've ever seen the stats change in the display window.

kenlee wrote: »

real damage reduction should be around 18% (at lvl 150 maybe?) and i get like 39-37% (rounded) from lvl 90 to 100. so 39% DR for lvl 90, 37% DR for 100 and maybe 18% for lvl 150?

No, the damage numbers match up with what you'd expect with just DR = def/(def+40*lvl).

Level	patk	def	DR	calc dam    obs dam	diff	ratio
90	2672	1344	0.2718	1945.63	    1959	13.36	1.006871
92	2775	1468	0.2851	1983.68	    1997	13.31	1.006713
96	2989	1468	0.2765	2162.35     2176	13.64	1.006312
97	3043	1344	0.2572	2260.11	    2276	15.88	1.007028
98	3092	1344	0.2553	2302.55	    2323	20.44	1.008880
100	3210	1344	0.2514	2402.69     2419	16.30	1.006786
100	3210	0	0	3210	    3237	27.00	1.008411

There's a small offset which accounts for the 0.63% - 0.89% difference I mentioned in my first post. I had thought it was roundoff error, but since you're getting it with armor break, it must be coming from something not related to the defense/DR calc.

kenlee

what i didnt/dont understand is why there isnt a fixed damage reduction since that boss always have same lvl and defense. i mean, i look at your table and i see 0.27 and 0.25... thats like difference between 27% and 25% but this number should be constant... unless there something else, a minor difference somewhere and/or pet stats in window isnt there real one. DR = def/(def+40*lvl) makes DR about 18% for a lvl 150 boss with 1344 pdef, ok thats far from what i get with my numbers but even that DR should be constant

you can probably try with a free 8x/9x pet till he lvl on [?] mobs in oht

Solandri - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

what i didnt/dont understand is why there isnt a fixed damage reduction since that boss always have same lvl and defense. i mean, i look at your table and i see 0.27 and 0.25... thats like difference between 27% and 25% but this number should be constant...

DR changes with the attacker's level, which in this case is your pet's level.

DR = def / (def+40*lvl)

Against the Naught boss, def = 1344
When your pet was level 90, lvl = 90

DR(at 90) = 1344 / (1344 + 40*90) = 0.2718

When your pet was level 100, lvl = 100

DR(at 100) = 1344 / (1344 + 40*100) = 0.2514

If lvl was based on the defender's level, then that would mean your defense would get worse the higher level you got, which makes no sense.

kenlee

would make sense vs a player imo. i mean, my own DR doesnt change at all (from attacker to another) just the attacker lvl + his attack lvl vs my lvl + defense lvl (asterelle equation) after damage reduction from armor and pvp damage were considered. but it seems like those things have nothing to do with pve where damage reduction is relative just to attacker lvl.

anyway, about the real physical attack of my pet i think its around 3231. i get the least errors with this value, tested on a few mobs around my lvl. in window stats is 3210, even 3237 (damage done by pet with armor break) has an error bigger than 3131.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

kenlee wrote: »

Obviously at zero damage reduction a pet would do the same damage as its physical attack displayed in stats window.

Actually the pet still doesn't do the same damage as its physical attack when a mob's p def is 0. In every case, where my demon ironwood has hit, my herc has never hit the same damage shown in the stats window.

Just tested this in OHT on dream inspectors and array sentries

Dream Inspector-
Normal damage = 2040
Dmg w/demon IW = 2799

Array Sentries-
Normal damage = 2003
Dmg w/demon IW = 2799

So, under normal circumstances my herc actually hit out less on the (?) mark mob than on the normal mob; but in both cases where a p def armor break hit, herc hits the same.

Anyways, I've never seen my herc hit out the same number listed in its stats window. (Or any pet for that matter) My herc is lvl 92 and it's physical attack is either 2775 or 2776. (stat window and pet window say 2 different things.)

Stat window http://img408.imageshack.us/f/statwindow.png/
Pet window http://img833.imageshack.us/f/petwindow.png/

So in conclusion's it's probably safe to say the attack isnt displayed accurately.

EDIT: Didn't realize I was getting ninja'd, but I guess the point got across.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »

Dmg w/demon IW = 2799

Stat window http://img408.imageshack.us/f/statwindow.png/
Pet window http://img833.imageshack.us/f/petwindow.png/

2799 vs 2775 is also ~0.8% additional damage. So we have confirmation that:

• the 20% extra attack for >500 loyalty thing doesn't seem to be working
• pets are doing slightly more damage than their listed attack
• it's also on regular mobs, not just bosses or [?] mobs

On a hunch, what happens if you drop loyalty between 250-500 (when your pet supposedly gets 100% damage) and it attacks something with Demon Ironwood on it? Maybe the +20% patk is being mis-converted into 0.6%-0.8%?

Also would be good to check it with a pet other than a herc. Perhaps the problem only affects hercs.

kenlee

will check soon my my ranged pet since already has zero loyalty

Mayfly - Dreamweaver

The attack shown on the pet screen/pet stat screen already takes into account the loyalty modifier.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

I'll kill my herc a few times today in oht and redo some calculations when his loyalty is below 50%.

Update 1...

Herc at 477 loyalty (tame) (physical attack in pet window & and stat window (growth chart) are the same: 2313.)

array sentries
norm dmg 1672
w/demon IW 2336


dream inspectors
norm dmg 1703
w/demon IW 2336

In conclusion, I did get my herc's loyalty to 0 just to make sure there was another step i needed to take, but this wasn't the case. In all the experiments, my herc's attack was never accurate. It either hit lower than what was on the chart, or higher when demon IW was taken into account. I might test it again using myriad's armor break.

Update 2...

Herc at 149 loyalty (wild) (physical attack in both windows are the same: 1850)

Array sentries
norm dmg 1341
w/ demon IW 1874


Dream inspectors
norm dmg 1366
w/demon IW 1874

Update 3...
Herc at 47 loyalty (savage) (physical attack in both winders are different: (pet window: 1388) (growth chart: 1387))

array sentries
norm dmg 1010
w/demon IW 1411

dream inspectors
norm dmg 1029
w/demon IW 1411

kenlee

Mayfly - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The attack shown on the pet screen/pet stat screen already takes into account the loyalty modifier.

true indeed but even that number its not the real one. seems like pets have a bit lower physical attack in stats window