sage dragon's breath

Adroit - Lost City

So this is the last important skill I'm missing (also missing water barrier, emberstorm, and crown of flames), but I am not worried about the others. I've actually found it to be somewhat useful recently. Being that I've been rpk'ing recently with a pk buddy, I've been getting them all to gank him, running out with immune on and dropping 10+ people with dragons breath. So I'm finally looking into buying the book (not worried about GV at all), but checking ecatomb.. you only get the 20% chance to stun and the dmg goes from 4458 to 4800 w/ the sage version. It also shows that the sage version cuts the radius in half.. which I'm really hoping is just a typo/bug on ecatomb. Does anyone know if the sage version really cuts the radius in half? And if it really does cut the radius in half, why would anyone even consider learning the lvl 11 version? >.>

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

I don't have nice things to say about the sage version but I will comment on the distance -- the demon version says the same thing (cut in half) but I noticed no difference between 10 and demon, so I'd say the distance part of the description is wrong.

Adroit - Lost City

anyone know for sure?

Dejack - Heavens Tear

Check description again... LVL 10 DB says its 12m range ... so diameter = 12 m. Etacomb description says radius 6m, and that means 2x6m for diameter... so kinda still 12

Adroit - Lost City

Dejack - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Check description again... LVL 10 DB says its 12m range ... so diameter = 12 m. Etacomb description says radius 6m, and that means 2x6m for diameter... so kinda still 12

exerpt from lvl 10 description, "All enemies within 12 meters of you suffer constant Fire damage."

exerpt from lvl 11 description, "All enemies within 6 meters of you suffer Fire damage every 3 seconds."

Borsuc - Raging Tide

I'm interested in knowing the answer myself, if anyone tested demon DB (as someone said? I think?). b:thanks

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

There is nothing halved in terms of distance DB hits when you go from level 10 to either level 11. At all. Seriously.. no joke. The only difference is either it has a chance to stun or has a chance to heal, and does more dmg per cycle and uses more mp per cycle. That's it. If there were any change in distance it would be more, not less.

Adroit - Lost City

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

There is nothing halved in terms of distance DB hits when you go from level 10 to either level 11. At all. Seriously.. no joke. The only difference is either it has a chance to stun or has a chance to heal, and does more dmg per cycle and uses more mp per cycle. That's it. If there were any change in distance it would be more, not less.

using logic to understand how skills work just doesn't cut it. PWI skills don't always make sense. Just take a look at manifest virtue, sage D.pyro/glacial snare. Some skills do have negative side-effects.. demon ironwood for instance has a chance to reduce pdef to 0, but 80% of the time it doesn't give any pdef debuff at all. Anyway, testing is really the only way to know for sure. Amour told me that it is the same range, so I'll just assume ecatomb is wrong :P

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

I have this skill on private s. I don't think radius is smaller.
Is nice spell especially against more players(mobs). Of course on private server it can be little different, because I can hold on me 70+mob at once so every time is around 10 mobs stunned. And stunning last long enough to another tick so some1 can be stunned for long time if he catch 3+ stunning chain. Personally I saw it already, but just on mob.b:pleased

Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear

I don't know for sure, but a friend of mine got sage noxious gas, and it said that the effective aoe was like..4m instead of w.e the original was, not logged on veno atm so can't check, but I'm sure it's around 10m. He was worried but when he learned it, nothing changed.

MrHanky - Harshlands

it does not recuce the radius i have it and its the same

Vorhs - Lost City

I have it and it doesnt reduce the radius.

BTW i strictly suggest you to learn it just after u are 100% done with your cultis in rebirth, cause stuns aggro is incredibly high and you'll have hard times in completing rebirth once u have this skill.

just to make some numbers, a successful aggro proc will increase your threat level by as you did 10x your average damage, if you proc stuns for 4 or 5 times on same mob its pratically impossible to take him away from you, even with alpha male/roar/bm stun, so dont blame barb or bm if you die while using sage db b:surrender

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

I know a wizzy who has the skill, and just to illustrate the aggro power of the stun:

She had full aggro with sage dragons breath on the fire IMUME wave in delta.
In other words, she did NO dmg, only had the chance to stunn, and kept full aggro over both barb, BM, and a high refined demon BOA

SunTzuWuu - Heavens Tear

...like the others said, no decrease in range at all.

And full rb runs are not a big deal with the sage version, you just have to use it to finish mobs off and not right from the start (at least after wave 2) since bms even with tt100 weaps +12 or nirvana weaps +12 won't be able to pull aggro from you again.

But it is and always was a rumor that you cant complete a full rb run with sage db. Might be a change for wizzies who never got aggro in a rb due to their low mag atk and are now surprised how to deal with it.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver

Might not be impossible, but it's a hell of alot harder

Adroit - Lost City

I got my 3rd fairy ages ago, so not worried about that.. besides I used to be a gv *****.. I did a full run w/o ever opening zhen just b/c I was bored, so I rly doubt I'd have any problems with the pve side of sage zhen.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

I've completed handfuls of RB's with sage wizards. It must be pointed out though they were either LA or they had well over 15K pdef (for AA and def 6) and ~ 7-11k HP buffed. It was iterated that the sage db will get you a lot more aggro due to stuns and this is highly true. The only way to compensate is maybe take a psychic and have them aoe stun and perhaps pull aggro away from you, or not be a nub and learn when to drop db like old school.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The only way to compensate is maybe not be a nub and learn when to drop db like old school.

Used to do full runs as LA at lvl 87 this way.

The stun percent seems low enough that I could probably do it.

Just wondering

A. if anyone has thoughts on sage DB for TW?

B. what the damage increase looks like. with low percentage on stun and increased damage, it might even itself out a little in terms of killing faster in RB?

Adroit - Lost City

dragons breath is easily the best magic aoe dps in game (probably better than BoA too.. but I can't say for sure). I've used it in pvp with an immune pot.. its awesome. In TW, if you have a bunch of enemy cata pullers on a tower/crystal or w/e, you can have a number of mages open zhen on them (like 4-5), after their immune/turtle run out the barbs drop like flies. Ofc that only works if all the DD that go with the catas have been taken out, because one archer can zhen and take out all the mages and just lol as there is nothing left to kill the barbs. Still it is definitely useful in PvP/TW when there is a small group of targets that can't rly move (or in PvP you'll often find a group of 8-10 people just standing outside sz and you can kill them b4 they realize whats going on.).

Sage version just isn't that great in GV, mainly because its an aggro skill.. unless you are Elayne and planning on being the tank anyway, probably best just to drop ultis. I know Haiz has a video on wave 9 in GV, shows pretty much what you are supposed to do. Drop ultis until most the mobs are dead, and then use DB to finish them off. Keep in mind.. unless you've got an amazing barb in pt, even with lvl 10 zhen you'll be taking aggro from most the mobs, so wait until enough are dead where you aren't going to die with them all on you.

MrHanky - Harshlands

and get a vit genie with earthquake
my genie can pull off 3 before it runs out of energy
it pushes them away put not out of the zhen
and is a life saver and helps speed things up a lot

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

and get a vit genie with earthquake
my genie can pull off 3 before it runs out of energy
it pushes them away put not out of the zhen
and is a life saver and helps speed things up a lot

MUST have earthquake for RB as a wiz. If not, you are making things alot harder for yourself and your squad if you don't.

fulgida

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I know a wizzy who has the skill, and just to illustrate the aggro power of the stun:

She had full aggro with sage dragons breath on the fire IMUME wave in delta.
In other words, she did NO dmg, only had the chance to stunn, and kept full aggro over both barb, BM, and a high refined demon BOA

Barbarians have a stun skill which does not generate much aggro.

I imagine that somewhere in the depths of the code, the aggro that was supposed to be going to go on barbarian stun got associated with sage dragon breath stun.

Unfortunately, I do not speak chinese, I do not have any access to the code nor data structures, and I do not have any friends that can help me with these things. So I am in no position to do anything about my hunch.

But, I imagine, somewhere, buried in tables of statistics, some kind of "well this is how things used to be and it worked then even though it's not like that now" snafu has been just lurking there, ready to pounce on sage wizards that happen to not be barbarians.

Chillum - Dreamweaver

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

and get a vit genie with earthquake
my genie can pull off 3 before it runs out of energy
it pushes them away put not out of the zhen
and is a life saver and helps speed things up a lot

You would recommend Earthquake over Expel for RB Delta?

Mystic-Night - Heavens Tear

Lol?

Or..you could get a good genie to expel yourself..and a few seconds gap, you can expel yourself again?

But then again..the 2 seconds from earthquake is much better..right?

MrHanky - Harshlands

put it this way i have expel on my genie with 200 energy and earth quake
when i expel no1 notices
when i earthquake people know im gettin f***ed up and to start helpin
earthquake also does damage
expel is phys dam only so all the while im still being hit by magic mobs
thus not letting my charm cool anyway
did i mention earthquake actually does damage?

Borsuc - Raging Tide

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

put it this way i have expel on my genie with 200 energy and earth quake
when i expel no1 notices
when i earthquake people know im gettin f***ed up and to start helpin

Because you go with noobs. It's not like the seal isn't noticeable.

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

expel is phys dam only so all the while im still being hit by magic mobs

Magic mobs are nothing, just get some crab meat. Most magic mobs have low HP that you should finish off with an ulti fast/blade tempest in HF anyway, because they stun (3rd and 9th waves).

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

thus not letting my charm cool anyway

Only been charmed in delta once and that was when it was after a disappointing TW for which I got a damn plat charm for.

More of a problem with sage DB is that stuns don't stack. You interrupt BM's and psy's (if you have a psy) stun locks. Most important in delta is a good BM, barb is 2nd just for luring mobs most of the time (all-at-once not one-at-a-time if you let them come through by themselves). Said BM should properly coord his stuns when you get aggro first time, and after your expel in-between goes off.

Finally if mobs are still not dead by then, drop DB, run in circles, wait for stun, start channel MS just so it lands when stun goes off. By that time you could put DB up and expel again. If most mobs still not dead, the other DDs slack bad. And no, I've done with sin+veno squads before. Sins amp, venos have nova. Nova is an extension to stun allowing me to keep DB up more without having to drop it and running in circles for the secondary AOE DDer (psy/archer/wiz). veno+sin+wiz DD is doable.

Not saying all my squads are perfect. I'm not ashamed to say I've been failing at 3rd wave at lvl101 due to squad issues, obviously, when I got through at lvl94 with all squad lower in level.

And no never been charmed except once and yes I'm always the punch bag. Save the energy for expel -- it's more than enough.

I'm demon btw if you are wondering, just saying what I observed, not "my" problems with sage DB since I can't even have it :P

Adroit - Lost City

Earthquake damage is nonfactor. I don't think I've ever hit anything w/ lvl 10 earthquake for over 500 damage. Not only that, but most people hate the knockback.. I could see it being somewhat useful, but not a "must have".

I got a HUGE majority of my exp from lvl 90-10x from GV. GV is basically how I lvl'd, did one almost every night for several months (after our first few successful runs, I can't remember a single time we failed.. was pretty much the same group of us every night). Anyway, my point is that my only genie skill I used in GV was domain, and that was pretty rare. Genies are not necessary to complete a GV if you know what you are doing (when you are taking too much aggro you can simply ease back on the DD a bit..), but those that are unable or unwilling to watch their dps rely on skills like expel to keep them alive.

The_owner - Lost City

damn that sounds expensive.... I only have like 4 sage skills including the cheap ones: Pyrogram (Fire card), Gush, stone rain, and Blade Tempest. That's it the rest sound expensive Lol. That sounds awesome though the stun part on Dragons breath! b:pleased

And hi Adroit b:bye

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Because you go with noobs. It's not like the seal isn't noticeable.

Magic mobs are nothing, just get some crab meat. Most magic mobs have low HP that you should finish off with an ulti fast/blade tempest in HF anyway, because they stun (3rd and 9th waves).

Only been charmed in delta once and that was when it was after a disappointing TW for which I got a damn plat charm for.

More of a problem with sage DB is that stuns don't stack. You interrupt BM's and psy's (if you have a psy) stun locks. Most important in delta is a good BM, barb is 2nd just for luring mobs most of the time (all-at-once not one-at-a-time if you let them come through by themselves). Said BM should properly coord his stuns when you get aggro first time, and after your expel in-between goes off.

Finally if mobs are still not dead by then, drop DB, run in circles, wait for stun, start channel MS just so it lands when stun goes off. By that time you could put DB up and expel again. If most mobs still not dead, the other DDs slack bad. And no, I've done with sin+veno squads before. Sins amp, venos have nova. Nova is an extension to stun allowing me to keep DB up more without having to drop it and running in circles for the secondary AOE DDer (psy/archer/wiz). veno+sin+wiz DD is doable.

Not saying all my squads are perfect. I'm not ashamed to say I've been failing at 3rd wave at lvl101 due to squad issues, obviously, when I got through at lvl94 with all squad lower in level.

And no never been charmed except once and yes I'm always the punch bag. Save the energy for expel -- it's more than enough.

I'm demon btw if you are wondering, just saying what I observed, not "my" problems with sage DB since I can't even have it :P

BM Roar of the Pride/HF/Psy uses glacial shards/sandburst blast/wiz uses BT/BIDS > Psy uses earth vector/Wiz uses hailstorm > Wiz uses mountain seize then dragons breath.

Squad DDs them down

15 seconds of stun and all but inc life should be dead.

MrHanky - Harshlands

if some one in squad doesnt like knockback then they arent aoe'ing
they are hitting 1 target
when im in good squad i dont do anything but eat crabmeat
usually barb just slams and veno nova and i barely get hurt
and i love how demon db thinks they know how it is to have sage lol
you cannot keep aggro off u once you get it thats it they are yours
400k + repairs i have had higher repair bill then the barb a few times
you are the tank with sage db no way around

and speaking of people getting mad with knockback
i have had people get mad at me for running in circles
"stop running in circles"
"you won't die"
stop-dead in 5 secs
so i try not to do the running thing accept on stun waves
i can stay in db until 3rd wave stunners without breaking
then again after stun wave til 9th wave

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

MrHanky - Harshlands wrote: »

if some one in squad doesnt like knockback then they arent aoe'ing
they are hitting 1 target
when im in good squad i dont do anything but eat crabmeat
usually barb just slams and veno nova and i barely get hurt
and i love how demon db thinks they know how it is to have sage lol
you cannot keep aggro off u once you get it thats it they are yours
400k + repairs i have had higher repair bill then the barb a few times
you are the tank with sage db no way around

and speaking of people getting mad with knockback
i have had people get mad at me for running in circles
"stop running in circles"
"you won't die"
stop-dead in 5 secs
so i try not to do the running thing accept on stun waves
i can stay in db until 3rd wave stunners without breaking
then again after stun wave til 9th wave

when i drop and run in circles it normally allows the barb/BM to know, OH **** MIZ HAS A **** TON OF MOBS FOLLOWING HIM and i usually get aggro off me in ~10 seconds.