Did you know this about Sage (lvl89+)

BeastKingAkl - Sanctuary

even if you already knew this i just wanted to say it. the main thing about sage and demon is that in trueform demon allows you to do full damage and sage does -50% less damage. However even though demon has more damage sage isnt that far behind? (im not talking about critcal hits just overall damage in true form)

Sage skills:
Axe and hammer mastery = +100%
Strength of the titans = +50%
True form = -50%

Total = 100%

Demon skills:
Axe and hammer mastery = 75%
strength of the titans = 40%
True form = (- 50% + 50% = 0) = 0 %

Total = 115%

so i just wanted to say even though demon is powerfull at damage (even better when you critical alot) in overall damage its like true form is only doing 15% less damage.

Oh and also if you are not in true form at all then when your sage u would hit 150% more damage wheras Demon you hit 115%?

However if you also add sage or demon Poison fang that can make a difference:

Sage: 40% extra damage (Only WOOD damage)

Total : (in true form + other skills = 140%)

Demon: 50% extra damage (Only WOOD damage)

Total: ( in true form + other skills = 165%)

(so just wanted to say something about sage, im not trying to say sage is better or demon is etc... just sharing something)

(if i am wrong or this information was inacurate please comment. Also i got all information from ecatomb.b:surrender also everything here is based on a simple weapon - no zerk or anything just average damage without using skills)

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

Um..you know that it's 50% less WEAPON damage, right?

DangerField - Dreamweaver

ya as said, since you are writhing overall dmg you are wrong. you need all to say of weapon dmg.

in reality its much less of a difference.

ex: my titan buff(sage) gives me an overall psy dmg increase of 13%. this number will increase as I refine my weapon which is only +5 right now

GohRaL - Sanctuary

talking of the bonus damage:
DEMON
SAGE


AXE N HAMMER MASTERY:
Increases axe and hammer weapon damage by 75%, critical hit rate increase of 2%
Increases axe and hammer weapon damage by 100%


STRENGHT OF THE TITANS:
extra 40% of weapon attack, critical hit rate increase of 5% for 1min
extra 50% of weapon attack


POISON FANG:
extra 50% of weapon attack in Wood damage for 15 minutes
extra 40% of weapon attack in Wood damage for 30 minutes


TRUE FORM:
NO weapon damage reduction
50% less weapon damage



so:
HUMAN FORM %weapon dmg bonus in the end:
DEMON --> 75 + 40 + 50 = +165% + 7%crit
SAGE --> 100 + 50 + 40 = +190%


TIGER FORM %weapon dmg bonus in the end:
DEMON --> 75 + 40 + 50 = +165% + 9%crit
SAGE --> 100 + 50 + 40 - 50 = +140%


for overall situation, since in HUMAN FORM the sage looses his PHYSICAL AND HEALTH advantages, i find a
WIN WIN situation for demon, both human and tiger...

and also demon is ten times more versatile than a pure meatshield

---

TIGER FORM COMPARISON SAGE vs. DEMON


SAGE
Sage version always increases physical defense gain from 60% to 120%.
Sage version always increases maximum HP by 40%.
Sage version always increases movement speed by 90%.
Sage version always inflict 50% less weapon damage.

-balancing-

Axe/Hammer Mastery Sage version always increases weapon damage gain to 100%.
Strength of Titans Sage version always increases damage by 50% of weapon attack.

+Poison Fang Sage version makes each attack deals an extra 40% of weapon attack in Wood damage
for 30 minutes.



DEMON
Demon version always increases physical defense gain from 60% to 80% plus an increase of 2% critical rate.
Demon version always increases maximum HP by 30%.
Demon version always increases movement speed by 80%.
Demon version lets tiger form attacks do full damage.

Axe/Hammer Mastery Demon version gives a critical hit rate increase of 2%...AND always increases
weapon damage gain to 75%
Strength of Titans Demon version increases critical hit rate by 5% for 1 minute...AND always increases
damage by 40% of weapon attack

+Poison Fang Demon version makes each attack deals an extra 50% of weapon attack in Wood damage
for 15 minutes.

---

AGAIN...for every 15 minutes:

SAGE'S DAMAGE BUFF'S = DEMON'S DAMAGE BUFF
works for BOTH FORMS
(buff: Titan Strenght & Poison Fang)




the HUMAN difference:

SAGE AXE MASTERY where u have +25% more increase in weapon damage (more DPH) than demon
and 1 more RANGE-NO-MISS skill (ONSLAUGHT)

but DEMON has waaaay more crit due to skills and passive (every 8sec more than 40%crit for 6sec)
and 1 more MELEE-NO-MISS skill (STOMP)


so for human -> DEMONS OUTDAMAGE SAGES(crit >> dph)





then for tiger difference :

SAGE has CHI, 60%p.def and 10%HP/SPEED more than demon but also a 50% weapon damage DECREASE

DEMON has more passive and active crit (up to 100% for 5sec every 30sec), way more aggro,
more cancel and debuffing ability


so for tiger -> NO DOUBT THAT DEMONS OUTDAMAGE SAGES





i personally prefer DEMON since i think it has WAY more efficency than SAGE



1 last thing: USE SEARCH BUTTON forgodsake

Malego - Heavens Tear

People always rant on crit but they always seem to forget, crit is NOT guarenteed. That makes all the difference. I've pulled agro from demon barbs spamming fr on bosses with my veno of the same level. I can't say the same about sage barbs.

BeastKingAkl - Sanctuary

Thanks everyone who replied to this thread. i have made a mistake and i now understand.
well everyone makes mistakes...b:surrender and thats what the forums are for: to share stuf or ask stuff. so ty and sorry for the mistake.

GohRaL - Sanctuary

Malego - Heavens Tear wrote: »

People always rant on crit but they always seem to forget, crit is NOT guarenteed. That makes all the difference. I've pulled agro from demon barbs spamming fr on bosses with my veno of the same level. I can't say the same about sage barbs.

Yeah, as you say its not guarantee...but skill wise:

if a good sage barb can stack up (let's say) 10% crit, which is 1 crit every 10 attacks

then a good demon can stack up 50% crit, which is 1 crit every 2 attacks...not guarantee but id say b:victory



and for the aggro stealing part, i dont know how to say it...but theorically (and in practice too) pulling aggro from demon is way harder that pull form a sage one.

why u say ?

1)demon has less CD on flesh ream > more aggro
2)demon does full weapon damage > more aggro
3)demon has way more critical rate > more aggro

if you cannot understand this then im sorry for you, but i can feel why you defend your own culti b:chuckle

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

if you cannot understand this then im sorry for you, but i can feel why you defend your own culti b:chuckle

LOL Malego is lvl83, not a demon or a sage yet. b:laugh

Zoe - Heavens Tear

XylolyX - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOL Malego is lvl83, not a demon or a sage yet. b:laugh

Working on it though. When I can finally have the coins to afford the gear I want him to have at 90, I'll work him to 89. Right now its still up in the air what I do with him at that point since I don't have any skill books yet.

HarmlessWolf - Lost City

I hate demon/sage barb threads b:cold

Both have advantages and disadvantages, and to be honest, one does not greatly outweight the other overall. But I'm definitely not referring to the crit bonuses, those are laughable for a barb. Demon is good because of increased stun chance on Mighty Swing, increased accuracy for blood bath, and increased attack for tiger form (I guess).

All your critical calculations assume you'll be buffing yourself every minute with Titans and being able to use Beastial Onslaught every 8 seconds without missing. AND ON TOP OF THAT, getting lucky enough to crit. I've never once fought a demon barb who crits enough to make it noticeable, and I've fought many demon barbs. So please end all of this talk about "crits, crits, crits, crits". You want crits? Make a sin. You wanna compare demon and sage barb? Talk about reduced cooldown, increased stun chance and accuracy, and increase tiger form damage. And please, do not mention "easier to hold aggro" because of increased damage in tiger, because some people mention that. You can hold aggro without that bonus, which is why it's not as useful as the increased HP bonus sage barbs get.

Just my thoughts.

Blood_Panda - Raging Tide

Sage books are cheaper then demon one right?

since everyone is going demon b:pleasedb:pleased

Basingeth - Lost City

Maybe on your server. b:surrender

Recently spent 28.75 mil. for sage hp buff.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

i personally chose to go demon myself purely for demon true form, which i acquired for 105k in AHb:pleased

cant find any of the other demon books on AH thoughb:cry but theres a bunch of sage onesb:chuckle

Reason I personally chose to go demon is for the fact that it has better aggro holding ability due to dealing more damage in tiger form than its sage counter part. Granted that sage has a better survivability rate than demon does, if you can't hold aggro your role as tank is essentially negated by the path you chose to take. But.. you'll most likely do better as a catabarb than your demon counterparts.

To each their own though, I personally like the demon path so far - and the ability to demon spark at 1.25 attacks/second (no -interval gear yet) makes holding aggro all that much easier.b:victory

GohRaL - Sanctuary

HarmlessWolf - Lost City wrote: »

I hate demon/sage barb threads b:cold

Both have advantages and disadvantages, and to be honest, one does not greatly outweight the other overall. But I'm definitely not referring to the crit bonuses, those are laughable for a barb. Demon is good because of increased stun chance on Mighty Swing, increased accuracy for blood bath, and increased attack for tiger form (I guess).

All your critical calculations assume you'll be buffing yourself every minute with Titans and being able to use Beastial Onslaught every 8 seconds without missing. AND ON TOP OF THAT, getting lucky enough to crit. I've never once fought a demon barb who crits enough to make it noticeable, and I've fought many demon barbs. So please end all of this talk about "crits, crits, crits, crits". You want crits? Make a sin. You wanna compare demon and sage barb? Talk about reduced cooldown, increased stun chance and accuracy, and increase tiger form damage. And please, do not mention "easier to hold aggro" because of increased damage in tiger, because some people mention that. You can hold aggro without that bonus, which is why it's not as useful as the increased HP bonus sage barbs get.

Just my thoughts.

Well if u think that %crit bonuses on barb are laughable then i dont know what's wrong with you b:bye



For the buff part, ive always liked to spam my buff so i wont have the problem of being unbuffed...and if i get a nice bonus too then i see no reason for not spamming it even more

For the onslaught skill 8sec CD is nothing so is spammable, for the miss part have you ever heard of penetrate armor before BO ? i think you dont know isnt it ?

I dont wanna become a sin, i just like the adds on demon skill and crit is always there

For the comparison, he was asking about the damage part so i had to talk of crit since THEY ARE NOTICEABLE

And last, of course you can hold aggro without those bonuses (CD n full dmg), but demon can do it better cuz they HAVE THOSE BONUSES...aggro for barb is FR, devour and damage


how do you see it now ?

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary

HarmlessWolf - Lost City wrote: »

But I'm definitely not referring to the crit bonuses, those are laughable for a barb. Demon is good because of increased stun chance on Mighty Swing, increased accuracy for blood bath, and increased attack for tiger form (I guess).

Crits are laughable? With demon onslaught, I crit almost every other hit for 6 seconds and onslaught only has 8 second cool-down. The whole point of going demon is for the crit bonus from onslaught. Probably the most OP'ed skill a demon barb has.

On mobs, you won't have to worry about missing. In PvP, demon BB has served me well.

Vorgen - Sanctuary

Honestly in the end its what kinda barb you are...i am very agressive and dive into stupid stuff all the time. Bu ti have the knowledge and skills to compensate for my lack of sage def as i am a Demon barb. In the end the skill stats only take you so far its how you use your charcter and your play style all this SAGE IS THE BEST!!! or DEMON PWNS SAGE INTO THE MUD!!! Is hersay. In the end skill as the player ultimately determines the victory of the day and i have seen some great Demon Barbs get pwned and i have seen soem awesome sage barbs go squish.....in the end.....what kind $%^in player are you? So lets leave it at that and just go choose whats best for you after gathering the info you need to figure it out. And lets leave all that nonsense alone.b:cute

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

Vorgen - Sanctuary wrote: »

Honestly in the end its what kinda barb you are...i am very agressive and dive into stupid stuff all the time. Bu ti have the knowledge and skills to compensate for my lack of sage def as i am a Demon barb. In the end the skill stats only take you so far its how you use your charcter and your play style all this SAGE IS THE BEST!!! or DEMON PWNS SAGE INTO THE MUD!!! Is hersay. In the end skill as the player ultimately determines the victory of the day and i have seen some great Demon Barbs get pwned and i have seen soem awesome sage barbs go squish.....in the end.....what kind $%^in player are you? So lets leave it at that and just go choose whats best for you after gathering the info you need to figure it out. And lets leave all that nonsense alone.b:cute

Well said Vorgen.

Culti is not anywhere near as important as the skills of the player.

TankedBeast - Lost City

Everyone always talks about the increased damage on demon barbs makes it easier for them to hold aggro compared to sage barbs. imo, how much damage you do doesn't really effect aggro with bosses. No matter which path you choose, just about every other class is going to out damage you considerably. And for the crit rates, if you want to continue to spam buffs every minute or so, go right ahead. That just uses a lot of mp, u could be using another attack instead of buffing, and the time it takes to buff would give ur opposition time to stun you.

IMO- 1v1 pvp=Demon>sage
1v1 pve=Demon>sage
1vMany pvp=Sage>Demon
1vMany pve=Sage>Demon

Demon and Sage barbs probably both hold aggro without much difficulty. Sage would probably be much better for pulling groups in Frost and Pulling Catapults in TW. <<<that is all I really care about.

It really is up to you and your playing style. 1v1 and better damage? Or 1vMany and better survivability?

KennyC - Lost City

Necro!

Knownase - Heavens Tear

TankedBeast - Lost City wrote: »

Everyone always talks about the increased damage on demon barbs makes it easier for them to hold aggro compared to sage barbs. imo, how much damage you do doesn't really effect aggro with bosses. No matter which path you choose, just about every other class is going to out damage you considerably. And for the crit rates, if you want to continue to spam buffs every minute or so, go right ahead. That just uses a lot of mp, u could be using another attack instead of buffing, and the time it takes to buff would give ur opposition time to stun you.

IMO- 1v1 pvp=Demon>sage
1v1 pve=Demon>sage
1vMany pvp=Sage>Demon
1vMany pve=Sage>Demon

Demon and Sage barbs probably both hold aggro without much difficulty. Sage would probably be much better for pulling groups in Frost and Pulling Catapults in TW. <<<that is all I really care about.

It really is up to you and your playing style. 1v1 and better damage? Or 1vMany and better survivability?

I know alot of Barbs that swapped from Sage to Demon. Sage was killed off by the game's direction imo.

At 100+, you very likely will not be tanking. Everyone would have a -int 4.0+ DD than a Barb tank. The Barb will only be useful for buffs and debuff, but who wants to be a "third wheel" in that? lol

Barbs tanking, is a last resort these days.

As for PvP, Sage lost its touch, being a Demon will provide more "bang for your buck", like the various crit buffs you get.

Also, Demon can provide a way into the -int scene, if you choose that path.

However, Sage will still rule in the concept of cata-pulling in TW, but thats about it.

Swornstar - Sanctuary

I kinda have an idea of what will be better for me now.(sage and demon)I feal good that i read this thread.Thanks guys XD b:pleased