5.0 fox veno

GetPoked - Sanctuary
GetPoked - Sanctuary Posts: 42 Arc User
edited August 2010 in Venomancer
just entertaining a curious thought

i have a old veno lying around that i dont use much anymore, and i was thinking that when i finish getting my -int gear for this toon, i can use my account stash to transfer it over to my veno(would have to buy some fists for her of course)

now there are 2 problems i see with this
1) would i be able to transfer over my -int rep armor
2) my veno is currently sage, would i have to go demon to get 5.0? i would have full interval gear, including set bonuses for 99 LA and HA, tome, cape, everything, also assuming i had -.10 fists, and possibly -int rep armo(just -.05) if i can transfer it in the account stash



before you flame, i fully understand that this is a silly build, and would not be an effective use for a veno, but it would be entertaining to run around with a 5.0 fox just for giggles
Post edited by GetPoked - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • xxxdsmer
    xxxdsmer Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    i doubt 5.0 anything veno with fists would be any kind of effective for anything...

    but using all the int- gears that bm/assn like, on a heavy veno, with a magic weapon refined, and foxform for the decent attack, then demon spark for the extra int-... could do some pretty good dmg and attack rate. may not be 5 aps, but would be pretty good both in terms of damage and attack rate. still probably not a fist/claw 5APS bm's worth, but pretty good anyways.
    i'm pro all classes, and against none in particular..
    but the age old QQ about venos is just that. OLD.
    QQ'd about a nix lately? check out this thread n tell me who's "OP" lol..
    (copy and paste this to address bar):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=102172
  • sleepcat
    sleepcat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Demon Spark for Venos does not increase interval rates last time I checked. I could be wrong though.
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  • xxxdsmer
    xxxdsmer Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    i'm not 89 or planning to go demon either, best would be for someone who is demon veno to go fox then demon spark to check hehe
    i'm pro all classes, and against none in particular..
    but the age old QQ about venos is just that. OLD.
    QQ'd about a nix lately? check out this thread n tell me who's "OP" lol..
    (copy and paste this to address bar):
    pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=102172
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Veno sparks don't give -interval. Quickest interval a veno can get with a magic sword is 2.22 atk/sec. Quickest a veno can get with fists is 4 atk/sec. But you can't equip fists and go into fox form without using a bug. And no, you can't transfer rep gear through the account stash.

    Edit: Ok, you got me curious. Working out the numbers right now. =p
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Veno sparks don't give -interval. Quickest interval a veno can get with a magic sword is 2.22 atk/sec. Quickest a veno can get with fists is 4 atk/sec.

    But you are leaving out the pet's atk/s?

    You can argue one could use the genie skill Relentless Courage to speed up attacks (fists will benefit more from it than a magic sword). But if you're including genie skills, the magic sword fox veno could use genie skills to generate chi, sparking more often. Sparked damage is just so much greater than regular DPS (over 2x) that I'm fairly certain the magic sword veno will benefit more from genie skills than the fist veno.

    But how many seconds does spark take, and how many melee attacks does that cost? Also if you try to amp after spark you lose spark time, if you try to spark after amp, you lose amp time. Genie skill for increased melee speed doesn't waste either of those if timed right.

    I don't know personally if I'd bother with relentless courage. It lasts for a mere 3.5s with a 30s cool down. I'd think that Extreme Poison or Tangling Mire would be more worth the stamina maybe depending on genie.
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    But you are leaving out the pet's atk/s?
    Pet damage would be the same for both, so you can ignore it for the comparison.
    But how many seconds does spark take, and how many melee attacks does that cost?
    Triple spark adds 3 seconds of lay time, which is not counted against the 15 sec increased damage period. I do take it into account.
    Also if you try to amp after spark you lose spark time, if you try to spark after amp, you lose amp time. Genie skill for increased melee speed doesn't waste either of those if timed right.
    Yup.
    I don't know personally if I'd bother with relentless courage. It lasts for a mere 3.5s with a 30s cool down. I'd think that Extreme Poison or Tangling Mire would be more worth the stamina maybe depending on genie.
    Genie damage amps and pdef debuffs affect both cases by the same amount, so can be ignored for the comparison.

    Ok, here's what I came up with, and I'm a little surprised. For weapons, I assumed level 100 nirvana grade 13 weapons. Striking Dragon in human form vs. Leaf of Buddha - Nirvana in fox form. Max -interval gear, one garnet gem (75 patk), and two band of heaven's jail rings (135 patk). 252 str in both cases (minimum for level 100 heavy armor, needed for the last -0.05 bit of interval).

    First I compared with both weapons refined to a modest +5.
    Statistic:	Fist	MSword
    Equip patk:	1195.5	1164
    patk mod:	2.68	4.68
    final patk:	3204	5448 (Sage)	4866 (Demon)
    attack/sec:	4	2.22
    DPS:		12816	12106 (S)	10812 (D)
    norm DPS:	100%	94.5% (S)	84.4% (D)
    
    That was about what I expected. Then I added the effect of sparks.
    Statistic:	Fist		MSword
    Sparked DPS:	36726 (S)	25039 (S)	27626 (D)
    t to 3 sparks:	18.75 sec	33.75 sec
    Unsparked time:	3.75 sec	18.75 sec
    Overall DPS:	27538 (S)	16396 (S)	16792 (D)
    norm DPS:	100%		59.5% (S)	61.0% (D)
    
    The fists build up sparks so quickly that it's no contest. Even Amp applied 100% of the time isn't going to be enough to shift the balance here.

    I ran the same numbers for the above weapons refined to +12 (which favors the magic sword). It helped the magic sword fox veno a lot, but nowhere near enough.
    Statistic:	Fist		MSword
    Overall DPS:	42352 (S)	30585 (S)	31934 (D)
    norm DPS:	100%		72.2% (S)	75.4% (D)
    
    In fact, a demon-sparked (650% patk bonus) fist veno in human form is going to top out at 48,027 DPS, which is only slightly below the 61k DPS theoretical max for a 5APS BM with 252 str (they only get 500% patk bonus from triple spark). If you use the bug to get into fox form with fist weapon equipped, the demon fox will top out at 57.2k DPS, for all intents and purposes yielding the same DPS as a 5 APS BM despite only being 4 APS. (The sage veno is not too shabby either, coming in at 52.9k DPS.)

    I tried adding the effect of genie skills but Relentless Courage doesn't last long enough to have much effect, and the chi skills take too long to recycle. The genie does favor the veno, but only adds about 2%-3% to the veno's normalized DPS. Best use of the genie is going to be Extreme Poison or Tangling Mire.

    I'm gonna have to add a set of -interval fists to my shopping list...
  • sleepcat
    sleepcat Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I'm gonna have to add a set of -interval fists to my shopping list...

    :D

    10char
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  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    What about other factors? Can you Soul Degen with fists? Leech? Malefic Crush? Even if Amp wouldn't seem to compare, I've found that I now often use the pet as a buffer before I take aggro. Amp affects the whole squad's performance as well as your pet's. That buffer cuts down repair costs, and healing time/ resources when soloing.
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  • Yulk - Heavens Tear
    Yulk - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,951 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    sleepcat wrote: »
    Demon Spark for Venos does not increase interval rates last time I checked. I could be wrong though.

    they get p.atk bonus in spark...
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  • MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear
    MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,377 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    they get p.atk bonus in spark...

    He just telling it doesn't have interval does not mean there no p.atk bonus b:bye b:surrender
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  • SanChan - Heavens Tear
    SanChan - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Solandri i think u forgett the melee mastery of Venos for ur Fist/Claw DPS
    i testeted it today i get the 200% melee bonus on every Phys attak based weapon even on Bows
  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Solandri i think u forgett the melee mastery of Venos for ur Fist/Claw DPS
    i testeted it today i get the 200% melee bonus on every Phys attak based weapon even on Bows

    Melee mastery only works while in Fox Form. Bows don't work in Fox Form, and they aren't even melee weapons...
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I tested it. You don't get 200% unless in werfox.

    Do note that the sage supplement does say "always", not "in Werefox form" though.
    Gain an additional 150% weapon damage in Werefox form.

    Sage version always gives 200% damage increase.
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  • GetPoked - Sanctuary
    GetPoked - Sanctuary Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    thx for all the info, imma have fun with this when i finish my int gear :)
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Demon Claw Cleric looks more interesting to me.
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  • Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver
    Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    Demon Claw Cleric looks more interesting to me.

    b:chuckle

    You know, I considered switching to a melee fox build, then thought about using fists in human form. That thought quickly passed once I realized how much effort it would take to re-stat and get the necessary gear.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    b:chuckle

    You know, I considered switching to a melee fox build, then thought about using fists in human form. That thought quickly passed once I realized how much effort it would take to re-stat and get the necessary gear.

    Same here, but in addition realized how it would gimp my aoe prowess.

    Different builds / classes can have their advantages (aside from things like LA mages). People have to ask themselves if 1v1 dps is worth giving up aoe dps, healing strength, soloing ability, etc. I've been in squads with some of the best 1v1 dps, and I think it sometimes get's to their heads (not always). I may only do about half the raw dps they do but -20% HP debuff, +30% dmg from amp, -40% pdef, and spark passing for HF is something a 3rd or 4th 5aps can't replace. -That's not even counting the ability to purge and bramble.

    A great veno is about as rare as a great barb even though the servers are flooded with venos and barbs are hard to come by.
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    thx for all the info, imma have fun with this when i finish my int gear :)
    The main thing I'd be wary about is the stat requirement. The L100 fists need 158 str, 198 dex. The L100 Nirvana heavy leggings need 252 str. At level 100, if you have 252 str and 198 dex, you'll be left with just 55 mag. That's 245 points short of what you'll need to wield a level 100 magic weapon. For comparison, a heavy build is only 100 points short.

    So your veno will be very gimpy at magic if you go this route. Unless you manage to snag a Love Up and Down tome and a ton of other +stat gear. And even then I'm not sure how viable it is. The L95 Deicide doesn't give you much wiggle room either - it has a 193 dex requirement, so you're only saving 5 dex.
    tweakz wrote: »
    Different builds / classes can have their advantages (aside from things like LA mages). People have to ask themselves if 1v1 dps is worth giving up aoe dps, healing strength, soloing ability, etc. I've been in squads with some of the best 1v1 dps, and I think it sometimes get's to their heads (not always).
    Problem is the veno AOEs have relatively long cooldown timers, so your overall DPS while AOEing is not that much more than 1v1. I'm too busy to run the calcs right now, but as a reference, according to Asterelle, for an archer's AOE Barrage to yield more DPS than an archer using 5 APS fists, there has to be 9+ mobs in the AOE.
    I may only do about half the raw dps they do but -20% HP debuff, +30% dmg from amp, -40% pdef, and spark passing for HF is something a 3rd or 4th 5aps can't replace. -That's not even counting the ability to purge and bramble.
    Not that I'd recommend a fist veno build. But if you did do one, you could just wield a lower level magic weapon to do all those things, then switch to the fists.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Problem is the veno AOEs have relatively long cooldown timers, so your overall DPS while AOEing is not that much more than 1v1.

    This is ignorant of Noxious -> Nova -> Noxious = 14 mobs dead = no need to continue. Also for RB we have Fox Myriad, and Malefic Crush.
    I'm too busy to run the calcs right now, but as a reference, according to Asterelle, for an archer's AOE Barrage to yield more DPS than an archer using 5 APS fists, there has to be 9+ mobs in the AOE.

    Not counting archer targeting, and running up to each mob or do you forget that mage venos use range? IE, if I'm 1 hit killing: there's not much chance an -int is going to out kill me especially when I can AoE when the opportunity strikes, and I can single shot otherwise, and then there's the grey areas.

    For all the QQ'ing about 5aps, there's really no merit to it.
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  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    The main thing I'd be wary about is the stat requirement. The L100 fists need 158 str, 198 dex. The L100 Nirvana heavy leggings need 252 str. At level 100, if you have 252 str and 198 dex, you'll be left with just 55 mag. That's 245 points short of what you'll need to wield a level 100 magic weapon. For comparison, a heavy build is only 100 points short.
    well, going LA will help the fist build. it helps by getting probably like 8% more crits than heavy just from dexx alone plus not to mention 4% more from striking dragon. if someone has a stable internet/server connection can go fox form with fists and as demon can also get more crit

    for someone that has the items/coins to spend, can go both magic and fists
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ffbdebd8d248c3bf human form dps
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=d1535b1071fb27d8 fox form amp/sould degen/whatever

    about genie skills, isnt wind shield better? assuming that you can put lots of mag in your genie
  • SanChan - Heavens Tear
    SanChan - Heavens Tear Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    u can get into Fox form to get melee mastery u just need fast fingers for the little trick :P
    and then u will get the 200% bonus even on Bow tested it

    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7011/bowvenotest1.jpg
    http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8621/bowvenotest2.jpg
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    u can get into Fox form to get melee mastery u just need fast fingers for the little trick :P
    and then u will get the 200% bonus even on Bow tested it

    http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7011/bowvenotest1.jpg
    http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/8621/bowvenotest2.jpg

    Fingers faster than lag i presume. b:laugh
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  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    i had the reset notes all ready to go, and with the right equips i could equip a TT60 and deicides without changing anything but the weapon, with the right stat ring i probably could have equipped an ashura's sign. in the end i decided against it, as the only thing the build is really good for is nirvana and nien/celesitial tiger, its pretty much useless for anything else.

    also wind prison is better for damage increase than relentless courage, just keep it at level 1 (the interval doesnt increase with level) and is almost spamable, you can get about 5 uses in a row without recharging, and the cooldown is only a couple seconds.

    if you do decided to do it, you loose all your amp/debuff/soul degen, and soloing is out of the question, as is pvp. now that the nein/tiger is only once a week instead of 14 times a week, its really not worth it, especially since the bosses are [?], besided with the ease of leveling and account stashes, just roll a BM/sin/archer and use whatever int gear you have on them.
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    kenlee wrote: »
    well, going LA will help the fist build.
    Yes. I didn't realize the light nirvana leggings also got -0.05 interval. Doing this as a light build, you only need to make up 98 stat points with equipment, 29 points which you get "for free" from the armor needed for the build. So yes, it's very doable as a light build while still being able to equip a level 100 magic weapon.

    The lower str of light will drop the top DPS in human form to 35k (S) and 42k (D). If you used the bug to go into fox form, DPS would be 47k (S) and 54k (D)
    it helps by getting probably like 8% more crits than heavy just from dexx alone plus not to mention 4% more from striking dragon.
    A light build doing this would have the same crit% as a heavy build doing it since their dex would be the same (198 to wield Striking Dragon). Except for PvP (where you want the crits to punch through charms), the Eternal Solitude rings you used are actually worse than the Heaven's Jail rings I suggested. The Eternal Solitude rings give you 6% more crit, which translates into less than 6% extra damage. The Heaven's Jail rings give you 70 more equipment patk, which on your build translates into 11% more damage. So the Heaven's Jail rings give ~2x the damage increase of 6% crit.
    also [wind shield] is better for damage increase than relentless courage, just keep it at level 1 (the interval doesnt increase with level) and is almost spamable, you can get about 5 uses in a row without recharging, and the cooldown is only a couple seconds.
    Does it help at 4 APS? That's 0.25 interval, so -10% would put you at 0.225. It depends on if the game rounds that up or down whether you'll end up at 4 APS or 5 APS.

    I can see it helping with the 2.22 APS build. 0.45 interval - 10% -> 0.4 interval = 2.5 APS. In fact if you did that with the recasted nirvana magic sword (has higher base damage) refined to +12, you end up at 89% (S) or 78% (D) the DPS of human form Striking Dragon +12. The recasted nirvana fist weapon does not have -0.1 interval (it has a chance to get -0.05 interval, so in theory you could get -0.1 or even -0.15 interval, but in all likelihood you will get no interval reduction). So I guess i can take the interval fists off my shopping list. b:chuckle
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    A light build doing this would have the same crit% as a heavy build doing it since their dex would be the same (198 to wield Striking Dragon). Except for PvP (where you want the crits to punch through charms), the Eternal Solitude rings you used are actually worse than the Heaven's Jail rings I suggested. The Eternal Solitude rings give you 6% more crit, which translates into less than 6% extra damage. The Heaven's Jail rings give you 70 more equipment patk, which on your build translates into 11% more damage. So the Heaven's Jail rings give ~2x the damage increase of 6% crit.
    oh i thought you want to equip magic weapon too with heavy build coz heavy plus striking dragon will probably eat like 250str/200dex and not much left for mag. if you dont care about mag yea than crits will be the same
    also yea its true you dont need to break weapon, after a couple of minutes of tries i was able to equip a spear and get fox form in the same time