Packs, CashShoppers, and the Economy
FiDollaYou - Sanctuary
Posts: 181 Arc User
I see a lot of complaining on the boards about how packs and sales in the CS are ruining the in-game economy. You know what? The complainers are correct. But, you know what else? There's a simple way to fix the problem.
Stop buying packs.
That's right. Stop buying the durned things. I guarantee that if nobody bought them, they'd be out of the boutique for good come next maintainence.
I'm not talking only about the folks who buy Zen and buy the packs for their own use. This includes those of you who buy gold in the AH and buy packs with that gold, as well as those who buy packs from cat shops as well. In reality, it also includes the folks who buy the stuff that comes from the packs, but the causal relationship is a bit diluted at that point in the chain, so the effect is not so directly related.
There is really no qualitative difference between someone who buys Zen and uses the gold to buy packs and someone who buys a pack from a cat shop or someone who buys gold in the AH and uses that gold to buy packs. Every pack you buy contributes to the problem no matter how circuitously you arrive at it.
For that matter, every CS-only item that you buy -- whether it's with Zen-purchased gold directly, AH gold, or from a cat shop -- makes you a cash shopper. Maybe not in the sense of using a +12'd VISA to buy levels and gear, but certainly in the sense of contributing to the rampant inflation and {impending | likely | possible | hypothetical} collapse of the economy.
If I buy a bunch of {ITEM} from the Boutique with the sole intent to resell them to you, _and you buy them_, then that makes you as culpable as I am for whatever economic disaster results.
If I charge a bunch of Zen to buy gold, with the sole intent of selling that gold in the AH, _and you buy that gold from me_, then that makes you as culpable as I am for whatever economic disaster results.
All of the "Non-CashShopping Merchants" out there (you know the ones -- so proud of never having charged Zen but have amassed billions of coin by selling CashShop items to other "non-CashShoppers") are just as culpable for the problems with the economy as the guy who charges Zen to sell the gold in the AH.
To use an analogy (not perfect, of course, but then NO analogy can be perfect by definition):
The Columbian drug lord who produces cocaine by the ton has some culpability for the crime and violence associated with the drug trade, as does the guy who imports it into the US 100 kilos at a time. But so does the guy who distributes it 1 kilo at a time, as does the guy who sells it an eight ball at a time, as does the guy with the $10 a day rock habit.
Interrupt this chain *permanently* at any point, and the flow of coke would come to a grinding halt. But guess which point makes the easiest target for everyone's anger? I guarantee that if everyone stopped using cocaine, the flow would dry up almost immediately, along with the attendant violent crimes.
*********
tl;dr: Don't like what packs are doing to gold prices and the economy, stop buying them.
Stop buying packs.
That's right. Stop buying the durned things. I guarantee that if nobody bought them, they'd be out of the boutique for good come next maintainence.
I'm not talking only about the folks who buy Zen and buy the packs for their own use. This includes those of you who buy gold in the AH and buy packs with that gold, as well as those who buy packs from cat shops as well. In reality, it also includes the folks who buy the stuff that comes from the packs, but the causal relationship is a bit diluted at that point in the chain, so the effect is not so directly related.
There is really no qualitative difference between someone who buys Zen and uses the gold to buy packs and someone who buys a pack from a cat shop or someone who buys gold in the AH and uses that gold to buy packs. Every pack you buy contributes to the problem no matter how circuitously you arrive at it.
For that matter, every CS-only item that you buy -- whether it's with Zen-purchased gold directly, AH gold, or from a cat shop -- makes you a cash shopper. Maybe not in the sense of using a +12'd VISA to buy levels and gear, but certainly in the sense of contributing to the rampant inflation and {impending | likely | possible | hypothetical} collapse of the economy.
If I buy a bunch of {ITEM} from the Boutique with the sole intent to resell them to you, _and you buy them_, then that makes you as culpable as I am for whatever economic disaster results.
If I charge a bunch of Zen to buy gold, with the sole intent of selling that gold in the AH, _and you buy that gold from me_, then that makes you as culpable as I am for whatever economic disaster results.
All of the "Non-CashShopping Merchants" out there (you know the ones -- so proud of never having charged Zen but have amassed billions of coin by selling CashShop items to other "non-CashShoppers") are just as culpable for the problems with the economy as the guy who charges Zen to sell the gold in the AH.
To use an analogy (not perfect, of course, but then NO analogy can be perfect by definition):
The Columbian drug lord who produces cocaine by the ton has some culpability for the crime and violence associated with the drug trade, as does the guy who imports it into the US 100 kilos at a time. But so does the guy who distributes it 1 kilo at a time, as does the guy who sells it an eight ball at a time, as does the guy with the $10 a day rock habit.
Interrupt this chain *permanently* at any point, and the flow of coke would come to a grinding halt. But guess which point makes the easiest target for everyone's anger? I guarantee that if everyone stopped using cocaine, the flow would dry up almost immediately, along with the attendant violent crimes.
*********
tl;dr: Don't like what packs are doing to gold prices and the economy, stop buying them.
Post edited by FiDollaYou - Sanctuary on
0
Comments
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FiDollaYou - Sanctuary wrote: »Don't like what packs are doing to gold prices and the economy, stop buying them.
Unfortunately, for many, many people, this is just not possible. They're addicted to them b:infuriated
*edit* Spell failThe only sin to go from 1 to 102 completely nude b:cool0 -
SlashSin - Lost City wrote: »Unfortunately, for many, many people, this is just not possible. They're addicted to them b:infuriated
*edit* Spell fail
That's fine. But it's also the height of hypocrisy to complain about what packs are doing to the economy while simultaneously contributing to the problem.
Sort of like the lawyer with the $200 a day blow habit complaining about the crackhead who just carjacked his porsche.0 -
its funny how they tried to get packs away like1 month ago but they had to do an emergency mantenaice to get packs back the day after they remove them i guess they couldnt handle it b:chuckle0
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FiDollaYou - Sanctuary wrote: »That's fine. But it's also the height of hypocrisy to complain about what packs are doing to the economy while simultaneously contributing to the problem.
Sort of like the lawyer with the $200 a day blow habit complaining about the crackhead who just carjacked his porsche.
I've never complained about packs as they have made Decus a wealthy and happy cleric. My biggest regret is not learning to merchant them sooner. I rather enjoy the pack/cocaine analogy. Anyone wanna buy some crack? b:pleasedProving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »I've never complained about packs as they have made Decus a wealthy and happy cleric. My biggest regret is not learning to merchant them sooner. I rather enjoy the pack/cocaine analogy. Anyone wanna buy some crack? b:pleased
Perhaps you don't hate them, but I see a lot of people complaining that packs have ruined the economy, while at the same time stating that they (like you) have made a buttload of coin from selling either the packs or stuff they got from opening the packs.0 -
They wont take the packs out if they do all of the newer players that make endgame will never have gear good as the people who had packs allready and got all there OP gear0
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Roin - Harshlands wrote: »They wont take the packs out if they do all of the newer players that make endgame will never have gear good as the people who had packs allready and got all there OP gear
Unless they also add the possibilities of crafting/dropping these gears like they were supposed to in the first place. And in some cases make them less near-impossible to attain normally.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
FiDollaYou - Sanctuary wrote: »Stop buying packs.
This translates to me as:
Stop consumerism.
Stop doing business.
Which in reality, you know won't happen.
However you may like to tag the sellers/buyers as guilty, it remains a fact that most buyers are either impulsive, want, or need whatever the benefits the pack gives...in short, this is consumer culture we're talking about. Likewise, if you're asking merchants to stop selling, it obviously makes no sense to them. Why would a merchant not want to make money?
What's lacking is moderation. And sadly, only the GMs/devs/whoever behind the sales have the power to do it. Yeah, players can contribute by not buying... But a few people making the decisions up there and having the authority versus an entire cohort of impulsive buyers, who are you gonna place your bets on?
I don't know about the others complaining, since I like the packs. But even so, I still hope for moderation. That's all. It's the saturation that's killing me.0 -
Impossible, especially for those of us who try to compete with the top players, buying packs/gear from packs has become a NECESSITY.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
I cash shop. Mainly for fashion until I had enough coin to by from players. Then I sell remaining gold to players for coin.
But do you want to know how many packs I bought?
0.
Do you want to know why?
Because it's like trying to win the lottery. You'll go through 1,000,000 of those things before a big ticket item appears. It's not worth it, and those duke shouts fortify my thinking on not buying one. I don't play the lottery in real life and I sure as hell wont do it in a game.0 -
If you don't like them, just personally don't buy them. It's going to be really difficult to get people, ALL people in pwi to stop buying packs. People who can afford them or actually get lucky will continue to buy them, because it is a source of income and a faster method to obtaining some end game gear.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thank you so much ForsakenX for the sig b:cute0 -
Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »This translates to me as:
Stop consumerism.
Stop doing business.
Which in reality, you know won't happen.
However you may like to tag the sellers/buyers as guilty, it remains a fact that most buyers are either impulsive, want, or need whatever the benefits the pack gives...in short, this is consumer culture we're talking about. Likewise, if you're asking merchants to stop selling, it obviously makes no sense to them. Why would a merchant not want to make money?
See, now, that's the thing. I personally don't care one way or the other. I have no beef with packs or the economy. I don't buy the things simply because I don't have the urge to gamble. I don't sell them because I simply have no desire to do the hardcore merchanting thing.
On those occasions that I need more coin than I have from grinding/questing and selling drops, I buy gold and sell it in the AH for whatever the median seller price is that day. The gold almost always sells within a few hours, and I'm a happy camper.Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »What's lacking is moderation. And sadly, only the GMs/devs/whoever behind the sales have the power to do it. Yeah, players can contribute by not buying... But a few people making the decisions up there and having the authority versus an entire cohort of impulsive buyers, who are you gonna place your bets on?
Now this translates to me as "I can't stop eating chocolate, so please stop selling so much chocolate in the grocery store. If you only sold one chocolate bar a day, I wouldn't have this Buddha belly..."Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »I don't know about the others complaining, since I like the packs. But even so, I still hope for moderation. That's all. It's the saturation that's killing me.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that I live in Las Vegas, but I really don't expect to see moderation in ANYTHING that consumers want. I see it every day in RL here, so it doesn't seem out of place in the game...0 -
Lythianaa - Dreamweaver wrote: »If you don't like them, just personally don't buy them. It's going to be really difficult to get people, ALL people in pwi to stop buying packs. People who can afford them or actually get lucky will continue to buy them, because it is a source of income and a faster method to obtaining some end game gear.
I don't like em or dislike em. I don't think about them at all -- except when they are the subject of every second thread in the forum... Oh yeah, and I'm not a huge fan of the Duke's shouts for every Perfect Luck, but it doesn't really affect my gameplay.
I was simply remarking on the number of people who come to the forum and complain about the packs and what they do to the economy, while simultaneously contributing to the problem while dabbling in the packs themselves (either as consumers or resellers).0 -
Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »Impossible, especially for those of us who try to compete with the top players, buying packs/gear from packs has become a NECESSITY.
Why does everyone want to keep up with the Jones'? Can no one just enjoy the game?
"Happy people don't have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have"0 -
OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »Why does everyone want to keep up with the Jones'? Can no one just enjoy the game?
"Happy people don't have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have"
Well, let's say you are in a TW fac like Rawrgh. You need to compete with cashshoppers since you face those in a TW. Makes sense? Especially if you love TW, ie. enjoy it.100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »Impossible, especially for those of us who try to compete with the top players, buying packs/gear from packs has become a NECESSITY.Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »Well, let's say you are in a TW fac like Rawrgh. You need to compete with cashshoppers since you face those in a TW. Makes sense? Especially if you love TW, ie. enjoy it.
Yes, but then you are making a "choice" .. to make it a necessity. I have made it to lvl 98 and did just fine without having lunar this or end game that. I do not Tw... but I have fun and have a good time and have no complaints from my squads about how well I play based on performance of my gears.
But in order to play this game and have fun you do NOT have to have the best of everything.0 -
OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »Yes, but then you are making a "choice" .. to make it a necessity. I have made it to lvl 98 and did just fine without having lunar this or end game that. I do not Tw... but I have fun and have a good time and have no complaints from my squads about how well I play based on performance of my gears.
But in order to play this game and have fun you do NOT have to have the best of everything.
I agree; in everything else than serious high-level farming, PK or TW normal gears are enough. But when you start any of those three, it helps if you have good gears.100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »I agree; in everything else than serious high-level farming, PK or TW normal gears are enough. But when you start any of those three, it helps if you have good gears.
Also, I suppose that one could say on a PvP server there is more need. I'm not on one, never have been don't plan to ever be. I would imagine there though it probably is a bit more of a necessity, but then again the player would CHOOSE to be on that type of server.
Although I'm not real sure if it would make a difference in their game play. Maybe just get ganked way more than others.0 -
u would think so.. but most OP people dont fight eachother that much
they become friends and fight the other ppl for some strange reasonAttacking at the speed of Suck since 20090 -
OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »Also, I suppose that one could say on a PvP server there is more need. I'm not on one, never have been don't plan to ever be. I would imagine there though it probably is a bit more of a necessity, but then again the player would CHOOSE to be on that type of server.
Although I'm not real sure if it would make a difference in their game play. Maybe just get ganked way more than others.
I've seen it change quite a bit. Before anni packs, almost everyone walked around with at max +5 refines on TT90 and stuff like that. After that, +7 and up seems to be much more common. Even +10 is nothing new.100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »I've seen it change quite a bit. Before anni packs, almost everyone walked around with at max +5 refines on TT90 and stuff like that. After that, +7 and up seems to be much more common. Even +10 is nothing new.
Right you are, early 90's I went into the dragon race (the underwater one) and a cleric just 1 shotted me. I was like ... huh? Then I checked her gears.. all pack gears even the wep.. all of it was +10.. that is insane. I wasn't even jealous I actually felt pity. Very doubtful she farmed all of that in game.. which means likely she bought it all with real money. I'm not saying spending money is bad, but to that extent is just like.. WOW>>>>what was she thinking.0 -
OneHottShot - Heavens Tear wrote: »Right you are, early 90's I went into the dragon race (the underwater one) and a cleric just 1 shotted me. I was like ... huh? Then I checked her gears.. all pack gears even the wep.. all of it was +10.. that is insane. I wasn't even jealous I actually felt pity. Very doubtful she farmed all of that in game.. which means likely she bought it all with real money. I'm not saying spending money is bad, but to that extent is just like.. WOW>>>>what was she thinking.
You don't have to use real money to get good gear. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. I just really do not like this assumption. It's a pretty bad misconception to assume that people with good refines and good gear all cash-shop. Some certainly do, and even make a show of it; but, there are many of us who are catshops most of the day while we attend to work/school/whatever (or run 2+ computers with catshop alts) and over time build up enough money to have nice things as well.
b:thanksProving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
Keep in mind that every item from the cash shop, every pack, every piece of fashion, just about every mount and flyer, the vast majority of charms, and numerous intangible consumables like guardian scrolls and dragon orbs, all of those had to be bought by $$$ somebody spent on the game. Even if the person possessing the item bought it with gold purchased with coin, that gold had to come from someone else paying $$$, who then took the coin from the gold sale and bought something else with it.Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »You don't have to use real money to get good gear. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. I just really do not like this assumption. It's a pretty bad misconception to assume that people with good refines and good gear all cash-shop. Some certainly do, and even make a show of it; but, there are many of us who are catshops most of the day while we attend to work/school/whatever (or run 2+ computers with catshop alts) and over time build up enough money to have nice things as well.
There are a lot of people putting lots of cash into this game. Only a small fraction of people run a cat shop, and only a smaller fraction are wildly successful. The few hundred cat shops you see in Archo are small compared to the thousands of players on each server at any given time. So while you may not like the assumption that someone loaded up with event gear spent a lot of cash to get it because it doesn't describe you, chances are it's an accurate assumption most of the time.0 -
You've described the situation perfectly, and you've also perfectly explained why people aren't hypocrites for hating the Packs but also using the Packs.Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary wrote: »Likewise, if you're asking merchants to stop selling, it obviously makes no sense to them. Why would a merchant not want to make money?
What's lacking is moderation. And sadly, only the GMs/devs/whoever behind the sales have the power to do it.
I once played a boardgame with my ex-girlfriend's family, and one of the rules of the game was you were limited to making $500 bets. The father insisted that rule "wasn't realistic" as did his son, and they complained and complained until everybody but me agreed there should be no betting limit.
I tried to explain to them not having a limit would break the game, but they didn't understand.
Anyway, sure enough we started the next round and about 15 minutes in I literally broke the bank. I just kept going all-in on high probability bets and doubling my money each time. I had argued against the rule change, but once the change was made I wasn't going to not use it out of some sort of completely ineffective, whiny protest at not being listened to.
My point is that I will gladly argue that Packs are causing inflation/greed/runaway hysteria/etc... and voice my disapproval at them, but if the powers that be decide they're going to go ahead with them then I will also gladly exploit them to their full potential. Anybody else who does the same is just being rational.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
There's no way to stop PWE making money.
If you start a strike of not buying packs, every other single cash shopper that doesnt care of these comments will keep buying them. And even those who do care about it, will just buy them from the cash shoppers with ingame coin.
Yep, no way.
Sorry to say this, but it is the reality.WTB> -12% channeling BELT or RING pm me with link or mail me ingame HT server, ty.0 -
You mean like when I go up against one of leviathan's rank 8 archers?Bladed_Tony - Raging Tide wrote: »u would think so.. but most OP people dont fight eachother that much
they become friends and fight the other ppl for some strange reason
Sorry but if you want to compete in any high end things, one of which being TW, then you need to either buy packs or buy the things that come from packs. When I'm in PK and every guy I go against has a tournament helm, I better make damn sure I have one.
For some of us, we enjoy trying to rise to the top, and aren't content with not participating in high end things.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »You've described the situation perfectly, and you've also perfectly explained why people aren't hypocrites for hating the Packs but also using the Packs.
I once played a boardgame with my ex-girlfriend's family, and one of the rules of the game was you were limited to making $500 bets. The father insisted that rule "wasn't realistic" as did his son, and they complained and complained until everybody but me agreed there should be no betting limit.
I tried to explain to them not having a limit would break the game, but they didn't understand.
Anyway, sure enough we started the next round and about 15 minutes in I literally broke the bank. I just kept going all-in on high probability bets and doubling my money each time. I had argued against the rule change, but once the change was made I wasn't going to not use it out of some sort of completely ineffective, whiny protest at not being listened to.
My point is that I will gladly argue that Packs are causing inflation/greed/runaway hysteria/etc... and voice my disapproval at them, but if the powers that be decide they're going to go ahead with them then I will also gladly exploit them to their full potential. Anybody else who does the same is just being rational.
Rationalization may salve the conscience, but using the packs while complaining about them is still hypocrisy. Or do you honestly believe that the "well, everyone else was doing it" excuse is valid?
If you complain about how bad packs are for the economy while simultaneously contributing to the problem, well, what would YOU call that?0 -
I call it, "Not being a complete idiot".FiDollaYou - Sanctuary wrote: »Rationalization may salve the conscience, but using the packs while complaining about them is still hypocrisy. Or do you honestly believe that the "well, everyone else was doing it" excuse is valid?
If you complain about how bad packs are for the economy while simultaneously contributing to the problem, well, what would YOU call that?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »I call it, "Not being a complete idiot".
No argument with that. If I cared enough about making coin by merchanting I'd probably dabble in packs myself.
But... complaining about packs while simultaneously buying/selling them sounds an awful lot like the folks that managed to convince McDonalds to change the fryer oil so they can feel good about supersizing their french fries. Or for a better analogy... complaining about the federal government (in the US, anyway) wasting money, but voting for a corrupt representative because he'll at least funnel some of that wasted money towards your state.
"I can't control myself, so I need YOU to change to help me." or "Everyone else is doing it, so I have to do it to be competitive."
Good luck with your complaints, but please don't be so surprised when the folks making money off of you "not being a complete idiot" don't seem to listen...0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »
My point is that I will gladly argue that Packs are causing inflation/greed/runaway hysteria/etc... and voice my disapproval at them, but if the powers that be decide they're going to go ahead with them then I will also gladly exploit them to their full potential. Anybody else who does the same is just being rational.
THIS.
It's easy to do the holier than thou gimmick but at the end of the day it comes down to self-interest. If you want to appeal to the greater good how about giving up your computer and whatever you pay for an internet connection to help alleviate world hunger?
Now, who's being an hypocrite? There's nothing wrong with seizing whatever oportunities come your way, not in the real world nor in virtual ones. If you really want to help others empower them with knowledge or quietly use your resources to advance whatever cause you feel strongly about. But if you want others to give up whatever advantages they have managed because you can't seize those oportunities yourself then really you're only looking out for yourself.0
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