Suicidal Thread!

Airyll - Dreamweaver

frankieraye wrote: »

It is in our interest to reward the players who participated in the Facebook contest, because we want this event to be a positive experience for everyone involved, as we were all working toward a common goal. We don't want you guys to feel like it was all for nothing.

This doesn't deny that's it's also in your interest to reward players because otherwise... they'd just never become a fan. It is one big marketing scheme at the end of the day, as 100k fans on Facebook makes PWI (and therefore, in extension, the company) look like an active, liked game with a company that is there for it's players. To entice players to like your FB page, you need to give them a reward.

To be honest, I don't think this analogy works-- to extend an art contest deadline for that reason would be disrespectful to the people who entered it, because they should be the only ones to get a legitimate chance to win it. Plus, there's only one winner. With this contest, either no player wins or all the players win, and we extended the deadline and lowered the goal to give the players a better chance of winning the prize.

It was not a perfect analogy, I'll agree to that. This is a contest where 'technically' everybody wins. However, it still seems more like the goal was lowered and time increased more so because, again, 100k on FB looks very good for the game and company. I'm sorry Frankie, but at this point I question the motives behind the moves given previous actions (or lack of) by the company.

Is this a contest because you want to reward your players? Is it because you want to keep them playing?

Or is it just because 100k fans on Facebook is more potential players, which is more potential income, meaning that remaining players aren't exactly a necessity in this event?

Perhaps I'm just being pessemistic after some of the things I've seen (or, again, not seen) happen on the game. (Which would also explain why everybody else has to come here and accuse me of trolling. Good heavens, lord forbid somebody has a negative opinion and bothers to explain it. I mean, burn them at the stake for such a heinous crime.)

I fail to see the "sore loser" behavior on our part. A sore loser typically loses, then whines about how it wasn't fair, the other team's cheating, etc..

I realize that we didn't reach the original goal, but it's far from a failure. We still welcomed about 20,000 new facebook profiles to our community, and that's pretty substantial.

And if we can break the new 93,000 Fans goal (which I definitely think we can do), then we'll be able to thank you all by hitting the 2x EXP switch.

Then perhaps this is simply where we share a difference of opinion. You work for the company and no doubt, know more about their sentiments then I do. This is merely the opinion of a customer based on previous experiences.

I'll also have to say here while 20,000 new fans is a large number, I'm willing to bet a good number of them are clone accounts from other people who took part in the previous Facebook contest. 100k seems massive, 93k seems massive, but if we were to honestly look at how many of the people were actually the same, I wonder if the number would be so large.

@ Zero: My my, you're a hypocritical one aren't you?

@ Danikovich: Wanted? I haven't said here what I wanted at all, you're reading too far into it. I merely stated how the whole thing appeared to me, that doesn't dictate that I wanted anything at all. It was also a contest. Contests have deadlines. If you don't reach the deadline? Well... the contest ends. That's the whole point.

If anything, what I would want is, if the company wants 100k fans that badly (and I'm sorry to say I'm still of the opinion this has a huge part to play in it) then they simply should have made the reward a little bit less and not put a timer on it. Or, perhaps, they shouldn't have made their goal for 100k to be reached in such a short time span.

It seems a little foolish on the company's part to set such a deadline for such a large number of fans, especially when there have been floods of complaints for them to see all over the forums. 100k in the time they set for it seemed like a challenge they would not win and, lo and behold, they did not. I'm sure if many of us customers/players saw that, the company did too.

-edit- On an end note, I'd like to thank Frankie for taking the time to read my posts and respond to them in full. While there are many things I could complain about when it comes to GMs and their responses, it's reassuring to see things like this, and it's very appreciated.

Ranfa - Dreamweaver

It seems like the only idea of "rewarding players" PWE manages to come up with is 2x EXP/spirit/drops. The irony is that you've been spoiling players with constant 2x exp that the players feel it's natural to have and although you've effectively managed to help players get to lvl 100 in matter of weeks, you've also taken away the "rewarding" aspect of 2x exp from them because quite frankly, majority of players who reach 100 just don't care about exp anymore. This isn't exactly a win-win situation. There is no loss, but there is no win either.

If you really don't want to make players feel bad about not winning anything, come up with something not drastically essential. In contests that involve kids, there are often "participation rewards" that are given out as appreciation for taking the time to participate, not dealing with winning or losing. They are often in forms of little gift like T-shirts of mugs, not very special, but something nevertheless. They do not give out the golden prize to everyone just because they participated, but they still show their appreciations by giving out something different and less significant. As a player I would not feel that I have been a part of something groundbreaking if you guys just kept lowering your expectations until we manage to babywalk to the goal. I don't want the golden prize that was originally meant for celebration for reaching the goal because, well, we didn't. We didn't reach the goal so we don't deserve the prize. Giving the golden prize for not reaching the goal is not kindness; it's a pity, and it's not always a pleasant feeling to be pitied.

I hope I made some sense here, I'm sleepy and I can't think straight. b:surrender

ZeroMagus - Dreamweaver

Before you call someone a hypocrite, you should really read & understand the definition and meaning of the word, cause nothing I said made me a hypocrit.

The hypocritical remarks are from the people who are playing the game while spreading negativity toward the game developers, GM's & the company as a whole. They appear to be fans of the game, but attack it at any given chance. "Nobody or No one thing is perfect"

Nothing I said was hypocritical, I did not display a false appearance of virtue or religion, nor have I acted in contradiction to my beliefs & words.

My issue is not with you per-say, but with all ungratefulness of supposed fans & there spreading of negativity toward PWE or any game development company.

I am highly allergic to stupid stuff & people, this is why I protest against the stupid stuff, such as this thread. 2 people now have called me a troll, lol. thats funny, cause the ones that call me a troll are the ones that generally participate in trollin activities or have a history of complaining about this game.
Hit up my profile & view all my posts, you will not see anything from me bashing PWE or PWI.

The fact is that I understand what they "PWE" are doing, what they have to go through, & about 90% of the time why they do the things they do. I have a list of things I could complain about, but I don't cause I see things from their angle, from my experience as an upcoming Game Designer.

To prove I am not a hypocrite or troll, here is a link to a page with some of my 3D work ranging from beginner to my current skill level, with my real life, name & personal contact info, proving I am really in Game Desing & that I am not a troll. "Everyone knows trolls are too cowardly to use their real names & info"

http://zerotech.guildlaunch.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5161339&gid=156309

Kephras - Heavens Tear

ZeroMagus - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...

Your interest in game design has exactly zero relevance to anything else in your argument. Quoting a stereotypical fallacy as proof of anything doesn't help your case.
But then, this thread is about PWE's management decisions, not personal defamation.

Moving on...

I'm glad to see this thread is still open, and moreso that Frankie has managed to share some constructive insight with the rest of us. I can't say I agree with the perspective, but I endorse the act.

As for the Facebook Contest itself, I have to agree with Airyll and others that it ceased to be about "rewarding the players" when it became a contest. If that were really the case, it wouldn't be necessary to extend the deadline for lack of making the company's goals. "So we didn't hit 100k like we'd hoped. No 2x for weeks - but maybe give 'em an extended weekend - Friday to Monday?" I can see a suggestion along those lines being more reasonable and well-received than adjusting the terms of an ongoing contest. Generally, by definition a "contest" has fixed terms that all parties agree to before competition takes place. Changing the terms is, by extension, cheating. That's the core framework - the context and conditions are in this case semantic.

ZeroMagus - Dreamweaver

Interest? lol, it's more than an interest, it's what i spent 4 years of college for & what I'm making a career out of, not some interest as you put it.

zero relevance, bigger lol. Line 14-16, (evidence backing my statements of understanding them & their practices, what they go through, ect)
I apologize for not having my reference in APA format for you. Maybe a thesis statement would have been in order?

Don't try to discredit me, I've searched you & KRS out. your a PWI Machinima "YouTuber" & Morrowind Modder. You don't have the credentials, resume or skill-set to top me, when it comes to Digital Media or Game Design management & practices.

But plz don't take me the wrong way. I'm not trying to attack you, just being honest & like anyone else in the industry & Schools:

I like your work, it's not "Pro" but neither is mine, lol
The "HoverTank" is pretty sweet, did you model it? how many poly? what program or programs for model & texturing?

ZBrush 3.5 r3 has a plug-in called turntable for "Turn-arounds"

This is gettin bookish i'm stoppin, lol

I like & respect what you are doing, probably cause I'm a nerd too b:chuckleb:victory

Even though I don't like this thread's topic with the complaining about PWE & such, I do enjoy meeting other creative & artistic ppl such as yourself Kephras.

I like chattin about game related troubleshooting, issues, methods & such with others who have the capacity to learn this stuff.

L8R b:bye

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Zero: your first post in this thread was a post worthy of a troll, plain and simple. You were trolling, while accusing me of trolling. This is what makes you a hypocrite. Telling us how you have all these credentials in whatever the **** doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite for your first post (nor does it actually mean you aren't a troll.

There are plenty of trolls who show their face, there are plenty of trolls with impressive jobs or something of that sort. Nothing you described in your second post actually made you less of a troll, just more of somebody trying to convince themselves otherwise.)

@ Kephras: I second the fact it's nice that this thread stayed open. If we ignore the fact Zero's now trying to get it locked by derailing it horribly and throwing around big words he probably doesn't understand in a poor attempt to flame, of course.

I'm still rather curious to see how PWE views a "contest" at this point, particular in reference to contests similar to "Xk fans on Facebook". I can understand it's a goal of the company, what I can't understand is that they turned it into a contest, and then basically warped the prize and the length of the contest for what is technically their own benefit.

Perhaps they were expecting more of their customer base? I really don't know. But if you're setting yourself a goal that you are determined to achieve it seems like a bad idea to turn it into a contest, of all things.

Telarith - Sanctuary

Player base itself kinda kills what they can use to reward as well.

They could add some events, but people would complain if they couldn't make the time. If not that, that the high levels are hogging it and low levels don't get anything.

Pretty sure most possible rewards will follow along on the same idea anyways. So would need to find a good reward that won't generate just as much problem as it would solve. Hope they remove it and the ones in mailboxes after either the event or reward is finished.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Player base itself kinda kills what they can use to reward as well.

They could add some events, but people would complain if they couldn't make the time. If not that, that the high levels are hogging it and low levels don't get anything.

Pretty sure most possible rewards will follow along on the same idea anyways. So would need to find a good reward that won't generate just as much problem as it would solve. Hope they remove it and the ones in mailboxes after either the event or reward is finished.

At this point the player base is admittedly making things easier for the company in some ways and harder in others. There have been so many x2 events that a lot of players seriously feel like the x2 should be permanent and good lord it's so hard to level without an event like that QQQQ. These are the players who encourage things like x2 or x3 rewards, because they complain when there isn't one.

But that doesn't really mean that this is the best choice of rewards, especially when it keeps coming back... and back... and back... and back...

Hazumu - Dreamweaver

To me this whole "in your face" talk about PWE missing their goal is rather..... redundant.

I've noticed that pretty much anyone that whines about the x2 events are the people that started playing early on. It seems like they somehow believe that it will deminish their accomplish in achieving 9x+ without such aids, which of course isn't true.

Honestly, it seems to me that x times xp is EXACTLY what this game NEEDS to stay alive. I know it will make all the "veterans" mad, but in the long run that's the only way to also save the game as soon as possible. Afterall TW in almost any server is dead due to 1 faction owning it all (Just because there's 1 other larger faction doesn't mean it's coloured, it's still "black and white".) without major opposition.

The only way to break this is to have more people at 9x with good gear, so that there's more people to go around for multiple factions, not just select 2.

I do agree with 1 point. It would have been VERY honourable and upright of PWE to just admit that they didn't reach the goal and thus no rewards. But I believe they foresaw the QQ that would rise from the people that did hit the "like" button. I'm sure that QQ would have been much bigger than this one.

But there's still 1 thing... I can't help, but feel that PWE is being incredibly fair to us. Afterall, like you said Airyll, this IS a marketing ploy AS WELL. However, marketing has never been about telling the truth. Marketing has ALWAYS been about telling the truth as praisingly as possible. So what if PWE doesn't quite hit 100k fans? They could still say that they have almost 100k fans. Or better yet, just say that they have 100k fans regardless of the actual number. Because afterall, when brought up they can just simply say that it was still near enough to be rounded up to 100k. Marketing has never had any problems with twisting the truth a little.

So what does that leave us then? PWE obviously doesn't need 100k fans for them to be able to say 100k fans in their marketing programs. The other reason for extending the time is as frankie said, to just simply say "thank you" for your efforts so far, let's see if we can squeeze a little more to make it.

Well, I have to admit that if they extend the time for a second time... then it becomes bit pointless to have an end time to begin with.

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

Hazumu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To me this whole "in your face" talk about PWE missing their goal is rather..... redundant.

I've noticed that pretty much anyone that whines about the x2 events are the people that started playing early on. It seems like they somehow believe that it will deminish their accomplish in achieving 9x+ without such aids, which of course isn't true.
actuly it does 1-100 in 7 months+ earlyer vs 1-100 in under a month now??
Honestly, it seems to me that x times xp is EXACTLY what this game NEEDS to stay alive. I know it will make all the "veterans" mad, but in the long run that's the only way to also save the game as soon as possible. Afterall TW in almost any server is dead due to 1 faction owning it all (Just because there's 1 other larger faction doesn't mean it's coloured, it's still "black and white".) without major opposition.you have some points but... see below

The only way to break this is to have more people at 9x with good gear, so that there's more people to go around for multiple factions, not just select 2. ppl who are fail at their class are not going to change anything even if they are lvl 90+ and have epic gear if they cant learn to play thier class with the same skill and exp that a vet has they are just a pk point aslo most of those new lvl 90+ are joining those big factions not helping at all
I do agree with 1 point. It would have been VERY honourable and upright of PWE to just admit that they didn't reach the goal and thus no rewards. But I believe they foresaw the QQ that would rise from the people that did hit the "like" button. I'm sure that QQ would have been much bigger than this one. its a contest and like any other if you lose tough luck better luck next time would actualy make ppl want to participate more if they didnt get the reward

But there's still 1 thing... I can't help, but feel that PWE is being incredibly fair to us. Afterall, like you said Airyll, this IS a marketing ploy AS WELL. However, marketing has never been about telling the truth. Marketing has ALWAYS been about telling the truth as praisingly as possible. So what if PWE doesn't quite hit 100k fans? They could still say that they have almost 100k fans. Or better yet, just say that they have 100k fans regardless of the actual number. Because afterall, when brought up they can just simply say that it was still near enough to be rounded up to 100k. Marketing has never had any problems with twisting the truth a little. any contest binds the contestants and the contest holder there aculy could probly have been a law suit if the #s were skewed in anyones favor

So what does that leave us then? PWE obviously doesn't need 100k fans for them to be able to say 100k fans in their marketing programs. The other reason for extending the time is as frankie said, to just simply say "thank you" for your efforts so far, let's see if we can squeeze a little more to make it. no a thank you would have been to simply say heres 2x or 3x thank you for being a loyal supporter of pwi please dont forget to like us on FB

Well, I have to admit that if they extend the time for a second time... then it becomes bit pointless to have an end time to begin with. maybe there is some hope you will understand this debate after all

responces in red

Quilue - Sanctuary

I wonder what the anniversary will bring now...more packs is lulzy

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wonder what the anniversary will bring now...more packs is lulzy

had to tilt my head away from coworkers so they dont see me smirking stupidly...

Euphy - Dreamweaver

Graviora - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I really like her too. b:cute

I've known her longer!!!


And Airyll its a good point that sales have been getting more... desperate? I'm not 100% sure I agree though. Iridesence/Wasp/Golden Gourd had a 1-Week Promo sales as well. Just like the one we had for Dark Lord/Frozen Sparkle/Ocean Glory/...some sword..! Moreover Perfect World ran a 24 hour 20% of on Annipacks. Yes - packs for $0.80! That was the 24 hours after they were officially removed. It might have been longer, but either way they convinced us it was the last opportunity to buy ever AND dropped the price.
Compared to that releasing near-identical lower-rate packs seems like an average sale (choose your mount/aerogear otherwise same).
As to the Facebook event... yes I rolled my eyes when I heard of the extension. But it doesn't hurt anyone, nor negatively impact the game. If I were the marketing department I would have organized it differently - making it a continuous contest to avoid short-falls like this. It would have bench marks... when we reach 100,000 2x exp/spirit, when we reach 150,000 2x rep. from FBs, etc. It would help the company save face! Because at the moment they do seem a little desperate.
I'd also reduce the attack bless boxes to +10 Atk Lev. to mitigate the negative impact they're having on the game. But that's by the by b:heart
Have fun shooting holes into their marketing, Airyll! But don't get banned b:shocked


PS: All typos and spelling errors are not my fault I haven't slept in 47 hours...
PPS: I don't care how many people quit as long as my husband and I can still play b:heart
PPPS: My friends and faction members must stay too!

Graviora - Dreamweaver

Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I've known her longer!!!

b:sad

I can still really like her, yes?

Airyll - Dreamweaver

Ohai Euphy!

The sale of the aerogear I wasn't really moaning about. As you rightly said they had sales on 'rare' aerogear before so it's not a huge shocker and it doesn't look desperate either. Hell, it's a good way to make a dollar when you consider how many people went out and bought Dark Lords, and that's me talking only from experience on DW.

I remember that sale too with the anniversary packs at about 20% off, though I can't remember when exactly it was nor for how long. I can't really remember whether it was convincing or not that the packs weren't coming back out - but if it was then they certainly pulled the wool over our eyes.

Eh. As I've said, the fact they turned it into a contest is really why it comes across as desperate when they extended the deadline. Your idea of having a larger Facebook event with several set benchmarks seems far better by a long shot; the company gets their Xk number of fans and the players are still rewarding for doing their part and liking the FB page in the first place. I suppose this was rushed in the hopes they'd hit their benchmarks sooner (slightly understandable) but it was rushed in a rather poor way and it's left the company looking a little... worse for wear, shall we say.

Banned? Me? I certainly hope not. =O

Also, hai again Grav. b:cute

Hazumu - Dreamweaver

@Badazmofo

actuly it does 1-100 in 7 months+ earlyer vs 1-100 in under a month now??

If we forget the minor detail such as hypers and 2x exp events, then yes, you're correct. What you're doing here is placing a marathon runner against a motorcycle. It's not the same effort and thus it cannot undermine what "vets" did without hypers and whatnot.

ppl who are fail at their class are not going to change anything even if they are lvl 90+ and have epic gear if they cant learn to play thier class with the same skill and exp that a vet has they are just a pk point aslo most of those new lvl 90+ are joining those big factions not helping at all

Just because you didn't play all the way through from 1 - 90 without hypers and whatnot doesn't NECESSARILY mean that you're a fail. Aside that, people learn. Also, skill can only take you so far, no matter how skilled you are, you're not going to be able to beat a lvl 90 char with a lvl 20 char. Even if the 90 one is fail. Also, people learn, so they're not going to be noobs forever. People can actually become better with practice. But it's possible you didn't know this. ^_^

its a contest and like any other if you lose tough luck better luck next time would actualy make ppl want to participate more if they didnt get the reward

If you read what I wrote, I said that that's how it usually should be, but I can't imagine the amount of flaming and QQ in the forums if they did that. I'm sure it'd be epic though.

any contest binds the contestants and the contest holder there aculy could probly have been a law suit if the #s were skewed in anyones favor

Read it again, I was talking about marketing, not contests. There's a differense. A substantial one.

no a thank you would have been to simply say heres 2x or 3x thank you for being a loyal supporter of pwi please dont forget to like us on FB

Your logic fails. That would be like giving the gold price to the guy that came in 4th just because he was "good sport". Bad analogy, but should be sufficient to bring the point across. 2x xp was the original "gold" price, how is it logical to give "gold" price as a "thank you for your efforts"?

maybe there is some hope you will understand this debate after all

Maybe there is some hope you will understand logic in anything at all, but sadly I wouldn't really know..

Badazmofo - Dreamweaver

Hazumu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Badazmofo


If we forget the minor detail such as hypers and 2x exp events, then yes, you're correct. What you're doing here is placing a marathon runner against a motorcycle. It's not the same effort and thus it cannot undermine what "vets" did without hypers and whatnot. that fact that it doesnt require the same effort is the point my dear that is what undermines it



Just because you didn't play all the way through from 1 - 90 without hypers and whatnot doesn't NECESSARILY mean that you're a fail. Aside that, people learn. Also, skill can only take you so far, no matter how skilled you are, you're not going to be able to beat a lvl 90 char with a lvl 20 char. Even if the 90 one is fail. Also, people learn, so they're not going to be noobs forever. People can actually become better with practice. But it's possible you didn't know this. ^_^ we are not compareing lvl 2x with skill vs a lvl 9x without skill we are compareing lvl 9x with other lvl 9x sry but your example is horrible its true skill can only take you so far but if you fail with your class your never going to get a squad to take you more than 1 time that will limit how far you can get on your own (on your own means without becomeing a pure cash shopper and farming all or most of your gear) yes ppl can be come better with practice but would you want to squad with a player who cant play their class right at lvl 9x? also if your lvl 9x you think you know what your doing because of your lvl if you think that you will never listen to ppl who do know what they are talking about i dont pretend to be a "pro" im a archer i go i do my job as well as i can i checked up on anything i didnt know and i learned all i could i dont see many of the new 9x who plvled there looking stuff up they think they know the game so they never learn more



If you read what I wrote, I said that that's how it usually should be, but I can't imagine the amount of flaming and QQ in the forums if they did that. I'm sure it'd be epic though.so ppl will QQ and flame reguardless atleast the company keeps its integrety

Read it again, I was talking about marketing, not contests. There's a differense. A substantial one. no we are talking about a contest used as marketing



Your logic fails. That would be like giving the gold price to the guy that came in 4th just because he was "good sport". Bad analogy, but should be sufficient to bring the point across. 2x xp was the original "gold" price, how is it logical to give "gold" price as a "thank you for your efforts"? yes right now it is a prize but it was said it was realy a thank you and as i said a thank you is given with out any effort


Maybe there is some hope you will understand logic in anything at all, but sadly I wouldn't really know..

maybe there is some hope you will learn to understand to comprise a legit argument that goes along with this topic