Sage or Demon for my Wizzy?

Mage_Up_Ass - Sanctuary
Mage_Up_Ass - Sanctuary Posts: 21 Arc User
edited July 2010 in Wizard
OK i've been thinking about turning sage b/c i heard i get extra chi gain and defence.
But then i heard that demon stone barriar boosts my defence and demon helps my damage. But i keep hearing things about demon and sage(they r not what i heard the first the time). SO question is: What does sage and demon really do for your character?
Post edited by Mage_Up_Ass - Sanctuary on

Comments

  • Sun_Burn - Lost City
    Sun_Burn - Lost City Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php

    tada

    I went sage due to my personal playstyle with my mage.

    As far as your comments:

    In a nutshell (in my opinion)
    Demon - better for 1v1 pvp, more control skills (stuns, seals, etc), better if you arent planning on reaching level 99

    Sage - better for tw/mass pvp, higher consistant damage due to masteries, chi chi chi <- imo as a mage i can never get enough chi for both pvp/pve, shows it's true colors at 99 *if u can get your ultis*.


    edit: side note.. as per your comment about demon stone barrier, ecatomb states that demon increases your phys def to 150%, and sage increases your earth def to 150%. But It doesnt mention that sage also increases your physical def to 120% (same with demon increasing your earth def by 120%)
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Mage_Up_**** - Sanctuary wrote: »
    SO question is: What does sage and demon really do for your character?
    Different skills? Different spark? (25% damage reduction versus -25% channeling) Skill that gives you 50 chi, cooldown 1 min, instead of one that takes 50 chi from opponents, cooldown 30 secs?

    I'm demon but mostly because I like the skills more. Less "worthless" skills even if I won't have sage BIDS. More different tactics. Check the site mentioned above if you want to check different bonuses from sage/demon skills.
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Me went Sagemon.
    Me got the worst of both worlds.
    b:surrender

    Now must reach 100 & use the celestial schism mold to change culti to Sagemon and hopefully get the best of both worlds.
    b:sweat
    darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
    Hawk:Do this. closing thread
    frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
    Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
    Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
    LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
    Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
    Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
    58% chance to get tokens
    41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
    1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Sun_Burn - Lost City
    Sun_Burn - Lost City Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »
    Me went Sagemon.
    Me got the worst of both worlds.
    b:surrender

    Now must reach 100 & use the celestial schism mold to change culti to Sagemon and hopefully get the best of both worlds.
    b:sweat

    I outleveled you on my mage >:O whats wrong with u b:angry
  • MagicHamsta - Lost City
    MagicHamsta - Lost City Posts: 10,466 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Sun_Burn - Lost City wrote: »
    I outleveled you on my mage >:O whats wrong with u b:angry

    Me hasn't been posting enough lately.
    b:surrender
    darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me. Aryannamage: I don't think I am a GM that would be new.
    Hawk:Do this. closing thread
    frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows.//Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
    Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
    Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
    LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope..
    Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
    Waiting for...Hamster Packs!
    58% chance to get tokens
    41% chance to get an all class pet hamster....but they has already been freed by the magic hamster.
    1% chance to get ban hamstered with the message "Hamsters United!"
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HexOmega - Dreamweaver
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,342 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Different skills? Different spark? (25% damage reduction versus -25% channeling) Skill that gives you 50 chi, cooldown 1 min, instead of one that takes 50 chi from opponents, cooldown 30 secs?

    I'm demon but mostly because I like the skills more. Less "worthless" skills even if I won't have sage BIDS. More different tactics. Check the site mentioned above if you want to check different bonuses from sage/demon skills.

    why still defend demons?

    its all cool and stuff, demonspark is lols

    reaching lvl100 is pretty easy nowadays...
    borsu lvlup and see how you are gimped compared to sages^^

    sage bids is pretty easy to obtain (if your lucky ,30 cube runs)
    while demon stone barrier is another story, and tbh, the critting and harder hitting bids is way more useful then some stupid little def increase

    (demon can chain ultis with genies and pots too but look at the adds.. sage are better^^)

    you start of with MS, you wanna stun! sage can cast w/o or less? spark
    ->use bids to ultimately kill with horrible crits
    Demon bids can cast w/o sparks... but you use it as final blow anyways? why... uhm..



    i have all of those extra demon control skills now (only demon suicide bomb missing)
    u wanna rely on a 20% stun chance on stone rain, rly?^^?
    pitfall freeze duration is to short to be of much use...

    only one thing to mention in PVE
    sage wizards have no, or low mana cost due to a chi-friendly pyrogram and the chi skill ->spark


    ...ah what do we learn? the "evil" ones (demons) loose in the end! ;)


    THEY SHOULD MAKE CULTI CHANGING ITEMS CONVERT SKILLS TOO, NO PRICE INCREASE b:angry
    i like potato
  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    why still defend demons?

    its all cool and stuff, demonspark is lols

    reaching lvl100 is pretty easy nowadays...
    borsu lvlup and see how you are gimped compared to sages^^

    sage bids is pretty easy to obtain (if your lucky ,30 cube runs)
    while demon stone barrier is another story, and tbh, the critting and harder hitting bids is way more useful then some stupid little def increase

    (demon can chain ultis with genies and pots too but look at the adds.. sage are better^^)

    you start of with MS, you wanna stun! sage can cast w/o or less? spark
    ->use bids to ultimately kill with horrible crits
    Demon bids can cast w/o sparks... but you use it as final blow anyways? why... uhm..



    i have all of those extra demon control skills now (only demon suicide bomb missing)
    u wanna rely on a 20% stun chance on stone rain, rly?^^?
    pitfall freeze duration is to short to be of much use...

    only one thing to mention in PVE
    sage wizards have no, or low mana cost due to a chi-friendly pyrogram and the chi skill ->spark


    ...ah what do we learn? the "evil" ones (demons) loose in the end! ;)


    THEY SHOULD MAKE CULTI CHANGING ITEMS CONVERT SKILLS TOO, NO PRICE INCREASE b:angry

    hex go sage, i will start you off with a sage pitfall<3 b:cute
    Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
    Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
    Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
    So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Hey don't be hating on demons Hex, my server started sage now most lean to demon for some reason -- one who even had sage BIDS even changed (a waste if you ask me) lol.

    And I never was the type of person to spam ultis only, guess is why I picked demon. Different tactics like I said. :P

    (faster divine pyro & snare can prove useful, hailstorm as well with 50% chance to freeze (think not 1v1 but more like stopping ppl when ganked and run away), stone rain stun isn't reliable it's just there to annoy when it does happen even though I don't rely on it)

    Sage does have more chi but it's only in combat. Out of combat demon frostblade gives 20 chi (I love it) so you gain maybe 300 chi in 1 min instead of 350, not that big of a dif. (like before a push in TW)

    also a core skill, pyrogram, is a lot faster. 25% faster channeling! 1.2 may not seem like a lot to 1.5 but it actually is! Feels as fast as gush now. (but I like sage stone rain and pyrogram as well -- just different).

    Force of Will demon -- can be lifesaver with 2 sec reduced cooldown. I think sage FoW is kinda "meh" because the AOE is extremely small -- unlikely you find that many people to silence so close to each other. Also Distance Shrink 30 meters is better both in PvE and PvP. Good for escaping melee or close archers. Although sometimes it's just too much and you end up running a bit back lol (but hey, better safe than sorry!).

    (I have the books from package but I can't learn them yet QQ)
  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Hey don't be hating on demons Hex, my server started sage now most lean to demon for some reason -- one who even had sage BIDS even changed (a waste if you ask me) lol.

    And I never was the type of person to spam ultis only, guess is why I picked demon. Different tactics like I said. :P

    (faster divine pyro & snare can prove useful, hailstorm as well with 50% chance to freeze (think not 1v1 but more like stopping ppl when ganked and run away), stone rain stun isn't reliable it's just there to annoy when it does happen even though I don't rely on it)

    Sage does have more chi but it's only in combat. Out of combat demon frostblade gives 20 chi (I love it) so you gain maybe 300 chi in 1 min instead of 350, not that big of a dif. (like before a push in TW)

    i dont even have to spam frostblade, i just pop a 1 spark pot and fly to enemy base using master li on cooldown. By the time i get to base i have 2+ sparks ready easy.b:chuckle
    Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
    Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
    Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
    So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I think there's a 2 min cooldown on apoth items? I'd rather save it for surprises, you never know which one you may need. Spark pots (God's Tea for example) I use in combat. :P

    I suppose my genie can qualify as the "chi-while-flying" buffer though.
  • Shadowfire - Dreamweaver
    Shadowfire - Dreamweaver Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    At least on our server, in TW people like to gather in the spot where cats can hit crystal and ignore base towers next to it. Conveniently, this places them within 3m of each other, making sage FoW useful also. And the extra range is nice on sage or demon for stopping BoAs/etc.
  • HexOmega - Dreamweaver
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,342 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    my pvp experience is very limited and low as you can see on my kills
    but i cant see any other way of killing some targets than just get hp close to 50% and hope for a ulti crit (maybe sutra-ed cuz u have no time D:)


    i love using Mountain Seize, crit kills or it just provides 6 seconds stun ...a pretty reliable control skill if you ask me D:




    uh cloud eruption genie + chi pots = 0 chi problems? getting off 3 2spark skills or a demon sparked ulti...



    *sigh i want tw :O*
    i like potato
  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »
    I think there's a 2 min cooldown on apoth items? I'd rather save it for surprises, you never know which one you may need. Spark pots (God's Tea for example) I use in combat. :P

    I suppose my genie can qualify as the "chi-while-flying" buffer though.
    going to the enemy base takes about 2-3 minutes on a flying mount. By the time you get to the other side your apo is off cooldown. I also have cloud eruption so i can get to enemy base and have 399 chi do Mountain Seize > Hailstorm > Sage BIDS gg...

    Btw, sage BIDS > crit proc > MS/BT = pwnage
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    my pvp experience is very limited and low as you can see on my kills
    but i cant see any other way of killing some targets than just get hp close to 50% and hope for a ulti crit (maybe sutra-ed cuz u have no time D:)


    i love using Mountain Seize, crit kills or it just provides 6 seconds stun ...a pretty reliable control skill if you ask me D:




    uh cloud eruption genie + chi pots = 0 chi problems? getting off 3 2spark skills or a demon sparked ulti...



    *sigh i want tw :O*

    ya cloud eruption + chi pots + master li and i got chi coming out my ****! Join Calamity and you can be with me, Shadowfire, ShockWave and the other pro mages of the server b:victory
    Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
    Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
    Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
    So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze
  • HexOmega - Dreamweaver
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,342 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Join Calamity and you can be with me, Shadowfire, ShockWave and the other pro mages of the server b:victory

    i seriously considered joining crabs :P, but its not you or those wizzies who motivate me xD
    ...b:surrender for now - sticking to my friends here, i dun wanna leave them :3




    14 times cube left for the next 99demon-skill... *hopes for BT only for the damage upgrade, add sucks*


    aw, is the physical part even boosted by demon/sage spark?
    ...or use neutral 2spark-spark D:?
    i like potato
  • Borsuc - Raging Tide
    Borsuc - Raging Tide Posts: 1,526 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    What do you mean "is the physical part even boosted by demon/sage spark"?

    I done some tests and BT benefits more from sparking (700% weapon physical damage, 700% weapon fire damage) than BIDS because it gets bonus twice. Unfortunately, I suspect that the fire mastery does not add to BT's physical part (20% for demons, not 25%).

    Never actually done this combo in a real situation though. :P
  • Mizuoni - Dreamweaver
    Mizuoni - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,533 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    i seriously considered joining crabs :P, but its not you or those wizzies who motivate me xD
    ...b:surrender for now - sticking to my friends here, i dun wanna leave them :3




    14 times cube left for the next 99demon-skill... *hopes for BT only for the damage upgrade, add sucks*


    aw, is the physical part even boosted by demon/sage spark?
    ...or use neutral 2spark-spark D:?

    i would test it but i have sage BIDS and dont have sage BT so sorry :(
    Sins are Scissors. Psychics are Rocks.
    Archers, Venos, Barbs, Wizards, BMs, Mystics, Seekers are Paper.
    ...and Clerics are Mushrooms.
    Paper beats Rock. Scissors beats Paper. Scissors also happens to beat Rock...until Rock gets 50k+ soulforce at which point Rock becomes an unstoppable killing machine that beats Paper... and would beat Scissors but it can't find Scissors, because Scissors are invisible.
    So Scissors beat Paper and avoids Rock, and that is called BALANCE. -cheze
  • Ignation - Lost City
    Ignation - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    I have nothing to say after what Adroit said...

    I am a noob and Adroit is the best mage in the server.
    "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
  • Adroit - Lost City
    Adroit - Lost City Posts: 4,628 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Ignation - Lost City wrote: »
    Never understood why people say Sage is for TW/Mass pvp.

    It all depends on the play style.

    Demon has control skills, and one of the best skill upgrades ingame (Hailstorm)
    this can be used for TW against rushing catapullers amd its way better than the sage version.

    Also, Demon has the stun from Stone rain which is cool if your hailstorm is on cooldown, same goes for pitfall.

    Now take a good look at Mountain Sieze, it's a larger AoE, which is one of the best AoEs in TW.

    Actually, Demon > Sage on wizards.


    Sage has chi skill and BiDs. and if you include the masteries + a refined weapon, you will hit harder than a demon wizard.

    Wizards have close to no control skills, Demon ups it and gives you a lot of good control skills.

    Like I said, it's all in how you play your wizard, if you are 100, and you are torn between these two cultivations, then sorry, you know close to nothing about your class.

    P.S: I'm sage, not turning demon. b:chuckle

    Ok Ignation, because you got your first cast nirvana weapon.. I hate you and must make you look stupid. So lets start.

    Sage is better for TW because the AoE's are better, and we have more chi to drop more AoE's.. which is the entire reason wiz's own in TW.

    Demon hailstorm is one of the best skill upgrades? You are saying that an extra 17% chance (33% -> 50%) to immobilize is one of the best upgrades? You could try looking up BIDS before you post that.

    MS is not a bigger aoe, it has a longer range (i.e. you can cast it when you are farther than your target.. it doesn't affect the radius around the target that also gets hit.

    A lot of control skills for demon? IZ U JOKING? Are you talking about the unreliable 20% chance to stun on stone rain? How about the 50% chance to stun on emberstorm.. where you need to be basically standing in melee range to use.. or possibly the extra 17% chance to immobilize on hailstorm which makes the likeliness of freezing go from unreliable to still unreliable? I suppose we could talk about the extra 18% chance to freeze from pitfall.. but that is the same story as hailstorm. Yes demon has slightly more control skills than sage.. but nothing to go bragging about saying you've finally got those reliable control skills that mages don't have.

    LULZ @ Igfail
    Youtube Channel: youtube.com/user/D2VeT/videos?flow=grid&view=0
    Current gear: pwcalc.com/6ab2893fbfb080a8
    [SIGPIC]http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=684hgk&s=5[/SIGPIC]
  • Ignation - Lost City
    Ignation - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    Adroit - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok Ignation, because you got your first cast nirvana weapon.. I hate you and must make you look stupid. So lets start.

    Sage is better for TW because the AoE's are better, and we have more chi to drop more AoE's.. which is the entire reason wiz's own in TW.

    Demon hailstorm is one of the best skill upgrades? You are saying that an extra 17% chance (33% -> 50%) to immobilize is one of the best upgrades? You could try looking up BIDS before you post that.

    MS is not a bigger aoe, it has a longer range (i.e. you can cast it when you are farther than your target.. it doesn't affect the radius around the target that also gets hit.

    A lot of control skills for demon? IZ U JOKING? Are you talking about the unreliable 20% chance to stun on stone rain? How about the 50% chance to stun on emberstorm.. where you need to be basically standing in melee range to use.. or possibly the extra 17% chance to immobilize on hailstorm which makes the likeliness of freezing go from unreliable to still unreliable? I suppose we could talk about the extra 18% chance to freeze from pitfall.. but that is the same story as hailstorm. Yes demon has slightly more control skills than sage.. but nothing to go bragging about saying you've finally got those reliable control skills that mages don't have.

    LULZ @ Igfail


    IHATEYOUSOMUCHIWANNAKILLYOU.

    Still, all of that is cool for me >.> i like demon >.> but i like sage too >.> i like sage more >.> leave me alone >.> i hate you >.>
    "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
  • Sun_Burn - Lost City
    Sun_Burn - Lost City Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    <3 sage so far, cant wait til 99 but im pvping too much these days to level v~v
  • Ignation - Lost City
    Ignation - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited July 2010
    T_T i was 99 for like.........2 months I think.....too much pvp >.<
    "It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

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