Gimped Wiz -- Or something more?

Sinorias - Archosaur

So I saw a random offer in the WV to kill Gouf yesterday, and when I told the guy I needed it, he told me to my teeth that "A Psychic has no place in any squad. It's just a Wiz with less mana. If we want a spell caster, we'll get a good one."

So of course I told him my mana pool may be lower, but I can out DD almost any Wiz at my around my level. He in turn, laughed and told me that Psy was a job that never should have been created, and that's it's a Wiz ripoff.

SO! My question is, where do you all stand on the whole Psychic vs Wiz debate?
Do you think we're a clone? Do you think we're good in squads as DDs?
This isn't a fact question, I just want to hear different people's opinions.
I assume we'll have alot of pro-psy responses, but let's try and be unbiased. ;x

Longknife - Harshlands

Sinorias - Archosaur wrote: »

So I saw a random offer in the WV to kill Gouf yesterday, and when I told the guy I needed it, he told me to my teeth that "A Psychic has no place in any squad. It's just a Wiz with less mana. If we want a spell caster, we'll get a good one."

So of course I told him my mana pool may be lower, but I can out DD almost any Wiz at my around my level. He in turn, laughed and told me that Psy was a job that never should have been created, and that's it's a Wiz ripoff.

SO! My question is, where do you all stand on the whole Psychic vs Wiz debate?
Do you think we're a clone? Do you think we're good in squads as DDs?
This isn't a fact question, I just want to hear different people's opinions.
I assume we'll have alot of pro-psy responses, but let's try and be unbiased. ;x

First off, the guy is an absolute idiot.

NO ONE, not even the Wizards themselves, will try to tell you that Wizzies are better at PvE instances than Psys. Psys have a higher DPS, still have one of the highest DPHs in the game (perhaps second highest, depending on how you look at it) and they have far more buffs and ailments to work with to keep themselves and their squad alive.

Second, Tideborn are still a target of "racism," you could say. People are used to working with the typical 6, so they're not to friendly with trying out a new partner. What's worse, Assassins are horrible party partners 90% of the time because they're just such a solo-focused class. This means people think "well if sins don't have much to contribute teamwork-wise then that must mean Psys don't either!" People shout for Wizards and Archers for FC runs all the time, but pigs fly every time someone shouts for a Psy. Despite this, plenty of people have told me they absolutely love doing FC runs with me/Psys because they have superior DPS to Wizzies and they can help stun like Blademasters.




And finally, Psys vs. Wizards in general:


A Wizard is a solid character. The thing people need to realize is that a Wiz has damage skills with 300% weapon damage (pretty sure Wiz weapons are superior to soulspheres damage-wise, too) on them and a buff that doubles their physical defense. This means that Wizards hit hella hard and their defense is actually pretty decent end-game. A wizard doesn't have many ailments, but the ones they do have cast faster than Psy ailments.


Psys on the other hand, are strategical characters. We don't have any physical defense buffs and we don't really have any skills that breach the 200% weapon damage mark. What's more, because of this, we either trade out our defense for harder offense or vice versa. This means that a Psy will always be squishy as hell or a low damage dealer; never both. However, we have a crapton of ailments to work with and superior casting speed.



I typically tell people this:

If a wizard and a Psy are told to kill people when they don't have any chi, the Wiz will do better. If they both have full chi, the Psy will do better. In long battles Wizards stay strong, whereas Psys perform amazing in short bursts but lack stamina to last long.

A Psy focuses on reaching an extremely powerful level at the cost of being weaker at other times, whereas a Wiz just has good all-around stats.
A Psy that runs out to fight a barb with three sparks and Diminished Vigor ready on hand will probably succeed where the Wizard may fail. Should the Psy have none of that ready going into battle, then it probably won't do nearly as well as the wizard.

Reshanta - Sanctuary

No offense to you at all and this is not directed at you, but where do I stand on this? heh simple..

I'm tired of every damn place I go in this forum, SOMEBODY must make a pointless psy/wiz comparison and there is almost always some little stupid snide remark about us thrown in there. I see it less than everyone else in game because I do not do group activities.

First of all, they are STRONGER, we are FASTER. But WE are strong in our own right. We aren't "wiz ripoffs". If anything our styles compliment each other.

There's no debate to that. The horse has been dead for so long and beat so much that the ground it lays on has eroded into a pit from the weight of our pounding on it.

And the post above pretty much says that wiz's shouldn't be complaining nor comparing. It's stupid.

Jtb - Harshlands

He's just jealous of the fact that:
1.Our amazing casting speed is better
2.We have the top Magic DPS in the game
3.We have awesome Defence/Offence pvp
4.We got Sexier looking Weapon
5.Our race was made to pwn in pvp and pve
6.Our stun attack casts MUCH faster then their mountain seize thing.
7.We can reflect any Dmg/Effects done....
8.We are awesome.

Case closed b:chuckle

ryukage

It's just ignorance. People see the phrase "magic damage DD class" and automatically assume that the two classes must therefore be the same.

Psychics and Wizards are so incredibly different in actual practice, words don't even do it justice. They really do appeal to different tactics and mindsets on the battlefield; and one who assumes all his ideals works for both will frequently wind up failing at one of them.

There's still some lingering jealousy towards Psychics because some people still naively think of us as "faster wizards" which must therefore make us OP. And again, it's just ignorance. We're different classes designed to meet different ends.

Other people (mainly some of the less-intelligible Wizard players) hate us because they still view us as "replacement wizards" which again is just ignorance. If anything, Psychics and Wizards compliment each other by bringing two different parts of the equation into one glorious whole. Anyone who's ever tried PvPing as a Wizard and Psychic duo will know what I'm saying here. The two classes are phenomenal together.

Some people still consider the Wizard as PWI's glass cannon class, which tbh is a load of **** because end-game wizards are far from glassy. Don't get me wrong, they definitely hit like cannons. But they are VERY well defended at the same time. A wizard is more like a stone cannon. Hits really friggen hard, and is just as hard to drop when built well.

Psychics can't really accomplish this. A Psychic is either very strong offensively, or very strong defensively. Never both at once. A Psychic must always evaluate his present situation and decide which option is more appropriate. (A basic strategy known as the Voodoo-swap.)

---

Enough of that banter though. Now that our 79/100 skills and Celestial skills are out, Psychic is a completed class and we stack up very well to the others. We have our weaknesses, but we have our strengths too. And I daresay, with our skills finally completed, we can potentially take on anyone with some realistic chance of victory; as long as we approach the battle correctly. That's the PvP perspective anyway.

As for PvE, our damage ability is hard to deny. My friends frequently ask (read: beg) me to join their instance squads, FCC especially, because they've seen me in action. They know what happens when a fairly geared Psychic with fully-leveled aoes (and a good enough understanding of survival) steps into the scene. Mobs die. Fast. As as if we weren't good enough as DDers for instances with our multiple, almost spammable aoes, we can go immune to physical damage for a period of time, keeping us alive even after we draw the aggro in instances like FCC. A well-played Psychic is a valuable friend to have.

So do I think we're "gimped wizards"? We're not wizards, and we're not gimped. We're our own class, and we're exactly where we need to be in terms of power. Let the haters be haters, while you enjoy this magnificent class. Those people are gonna be the same ones to start QQing all over again when PW eventually comes up with even more new classes (its bound to happen). And when that day comes, sit back, laugh at them, and continue to have fun doing whatever you do.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Sinorias - Archosaur wrote: »

"A Psychic has no place in any squad. It's just a Wiz with less mana."

lol what?
unless he means the wiz mp recovery buff or some wiz weapon with huge +mp i dont get it. maybe he squads with wiz turquoise sharded?
and what the point of a huge mp anyway, besides the Manifest Virtue skill? unless i'm missing something it's the most stupid way of judging

Astrohawke - Lost City

Having played both a psychic and a wizard to decent levels I will give you my opinion on the psychic vs wizard debate.

I feel that in PvE, psychics are better. Faster casting spells, more DPS, black voodoo etc make grinding very easy. Most mobs die before reaching you. Only real problem is mana which is easily solved with event pots after 75. On bosses, better dps makes psychics slightly better than wizards but still not really useful compared to interval characters. On frost runs, I like psychics better than wizards because lots of spammable aoes is better and more versatile than DB or really long casting spells like BIDS.

For PvP, mainly TW, I find wizards to be more useful for 2 reasons. Firstly high DPH is very useful for bypassing charm and 1 shots are great. Something psychics have trouble doing without being very cash shopped. But more importantly it's the survivability issue. Endgame wizards are not fragile at all. With stone barrier, they can tank attacks from both sides and have reliable escape mechanisms like distance shrink for kiting.

I know people say to use black voodoo for damage and white voodoo for surviving but it's a lot more difficult than they make it out to be in the heat of a TW. You will be in black voodoo most of the time being a DD. If you're in white voodoo, you're limited to DoTs which is single target and will not really kill anyone or contribute much during TW. If someone targets you while in black voodoo, then you're most likely dead before you can react and switch over to white. While being a very good aoer in TW, psychics die way too much and that affects how much damage they can put out.

ryukage

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

For PvP, mainly TW, I find wizards to be more useful for 2 reasons. Firstly high DPH is very useful for bypassing charm and 1 shots are great. Something psychics have trouble doing without being very cash shopped. But more importantly it's the survivability issue. Endgame wizards are not fragile at all. With stone barrier, they can tank attacks from both sides and have reliable escape mechanisms like distance shrink for kiting.

I know people say to use black voodoo for damage and white voodoo for surviving but it's a lot more difficult than they make it out to be in the heat of a TW. You will be in black voodoo most of the time being a DD. If you're in white voodoo, you're limited to DoTs which is single target and will not really kill anyone or contribute much during TW. If someone targets you while in black voodoo, then you're most likely dead before you can react and switch over to white. While being a very good aoer in TW, psychics die way too much and that affects how much damage they can put out.

A Psychic doesn't need to be cash shopped any more (but no less either) than a Wizard does. It's an issue of the player skill. A Psychic can't try to rambo into a TW, which is a problem many players don't seem to get.

And it's not so much that a Psychic can't DPH, it's that a Psychic must wait until a greater level to do it, and can't do it as often. Almost every skill in the Wizard arsenal does good DPH, while a Psychic only has a few skills to do this with, and they're mostly 79+ skills.

Astrohawke - Lost City

I said they have trouble doing good DPH not only because they get them late but because they're still weaker compared to wizard spells. On top of that, the weapon isn't as strong as a wizard's. So in order to attempt to match a wizard at DPH, they would need to be more CSed with better weapon refines. Even then, they can't DPH as often.

You also don't need to be rambo to be killed in TW. Anyone who has played a psychic knows how squishy they are so they also know to stay back behind the BMs and Barbs and DD. Not run into a bunch of people to use aqua cannon or something. But that doesn't really stop a sin or archer from targetting you because you're squishy. And when they do target you, unless you're in white voodoo already, you're usually dead pretty quick.

ryukage

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

I said they have trouble doing good DPH not only because they get them late but because they're still weaker compared to wizard spells. On top of that, the weapon isn't as strong as a wizard's. So in order to attempt to match a wizard at DPH, they would need to be more CSed with better weapon refines. Even then, they can't DPH as often.

You also don't need to be rambo to be killed in TW. Anyone who has played a psychic knows how squishy they are so they also know to stay back behind the BMs and Barbs and DD. Not run into a bunch of people to use aqua cannon or something. But that doesn't really stop a sin or archer from targetting you because you're squishy. And when they do target you, unless you're in white voodoo already, you're usually dead pretty quick.

I didn't say you HAD to be rambo, I said doing so made it a lot easier to die.

Anyways, being a psychic pretty much always means you need to understand the tactics, or die. So I do understand where you're coming from. Still though, I roll quite a few people before I go down in group fights and TW, so I still say we do fine.

Moobyhex - Lost City

The psy could be a great support character for TW. A sage psy could be on a stun or cata team using vigor skill to boost barb survivability, sage bubble of life to heal/purify team, and all the AoE skills that have beneficial secondary effects like stun/freeze/slow. The demon psy would be good for a defense team... use the diminished vigor on the cata puller or cleric, the extra crit % will improve dps, you can also slow the clerics channeling speed, then mixed with a wizard the undined strike will improve dps of both classes. I'm not really experienced in TW with a psy but in theory they sound pretty good.

Kai_Umi - Heavens Tear

It s not even about dmg difference DPS or DPH, psy and wizz play style are totaly different
Wizz are basicly do a few atk that hurt like hell , while the psy do a lot of quick atk with more than correct dmg using stun seal silence immunity or w/e to prevent the opponent from doing anything. So no psy aren t just gimped wiz they offer a lot of possibility in fight.

Kyourimaru - Lost City

As far as TW goes i'd usually be put in as a DD within the Cata squad, sage soul of vengeance and empowered vigor makes one hard to take down barb b:victory, can also heal if the clerics occupied and kill people while i wait to recast vigor xD

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Psy's are just the best class, hands down. If I hadn't put such time into my sin (who is now married as well), I would make my psy my main.

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Psy = good DPS. There be no reason not to take them for bosses and TT.

Wiz for FC be because they pretty much one shot all the mob pulls when combined with a BM drags.
b:bye
Even better if sage since they build practically build chi while running.
(Me has a few incidences with high level psy who did great damage but couldn't quite kill the mobs which meant the mobs just aggroed & killed the psy first...and then me pew pew goes down and wipes off the mobs...b:sweat)

Typhyse - Sanctuary

I wanna build chi while runningb:dirty

MagicHamsta - Lost City

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wanna build chi while runningb:dirty

assassins (you guys leak chi everywhere. QQ), wizzies (elemental shell, not much though...), and blademasters (their marrow or something) iono about the other classes.
>.>'

Typhyse - Sanctuary

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

assassins (you guys leak chi everywhere. QQ)

b:laugh Having a veno to chi us up is nice toob:dirty

ryukage

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

(Me has a few incidences with high level psy who did great damage but couldn't quite kill the mobs which meant the mobs just aggroed & killed the psy first...and then me pew pew goes down and wipes off the mobs...b:sweat)

I'm one of those Psy's who annihilates the mobs quickly and lives to tell about it. b:pleased

I've learned to build chi quickly in instances. So nowadays, while I still have mixed opinions on using Red Tide in PvP, I have to say its one of my main skills for FCC. It's a pretty good way to finish off the large groups with a fairly heavy hit + bleed on anything that manages to survive.

Longknife - Harshlands

MagicHamsta - Lost City wrote: »

Psy = good DPS. There be no reason not to take them for bosses and TT.

Wiz for FC be because they pretty much one shot all the mob pulls when combined with a BM drags.
b:bye
Even better if sage since they build practically build chi while running.
(Me has a few incidences with high level psy who did great damage but couldn't quite kill the mobs which meant the mobs just aggroed & killed the psy first...and then me pew pew goes down and wipes off the mobs...b:sweat)

That's why you keep Psy will and Earth Vector handy and don't just toss sparks around aimlessly.

For me, FC is...

Wait to see what BM does. If Roar of Pride, wait until it finishes to Earth Vector. (You could just let loose I'm sure, but this is me being overly cautious for the sake of the squad) If Dragons, Earth Vector immediately. Dragons means two shots for a Psy, likely one shot for a Sage/Demon Psy. Hell, two shots means there's no way the mobs will reach you before you get the second shot off. So does the stun on Earth Vector.


I also remember once where we did the big pull in the EXP room and our cleric DC'ed RIGHT. FRIGGIN. THERE. Barb started running in circles, Archer and Wiz got swarmed, BM and I kept dealing damage and then when a fair amount of the mobs came to me, I Psy will'ed. Felt good to be the only squishy to survive alongside the Heavy armor dudes. b:laugh

Kagizyu - Heavens Tear

shh i have the same squad almost every time
but i let barb lure, bm (demon heavens flame b:dirty), sage spark+aqua cannon.... i usually come close to one shotting most of the mobs in that room lmao xD

during dragoons? o: white voodoo and aoe away. hope barb has great agro... this is from my point of view. do not attempt any of these tactics at home kids

Sakuba - Harshlands

Dont compare a wiz to a psy lol

I never saw a wiz being able to tank FB 99 Bosses...i did today
And my gear isnt the best.

To abovepsoter...white voodoo on dragons?

Hard to hear lol

Kagizyu - Heavens Tear

umm when u have 9 dragons on you... not the easiest way to live? unless someone in ur squad can hit them for 200k good for them :x

ryukage

Kagizyu - Heavens Tear wrote: »

umm when u have 9 dragons on you... not the easiest way to live? unless someone in ur squad can hit them for 200k good for them :x

Well you should absolute domain and psychic will first, and go all out damage-wise. Then if after all that immunity time is up, if they still aren't dead, then you'd White Voodoo and finish them off.

Kagizyu - Heavens Tear

yeah.... about that... i deal enough damage for a while but not all the dragons go down at once...... making them stun at different times. when im working on my few, one stuns and resist runs out. dont tell me to get pots just for them -.- what a waste of life farming mats

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

First off, the guy is an absolute idiot.

NO ONE, not even the Wizards themselves, will try to tell you that Wizzies are better at PvE instances than Psys. Psys have a higher DPS, still have one of the highest DPHs in the game (perhaps second highest, depending on how you look at it) and they have far more buffs and ailments to work with to keep themselves and their squad alive.

Second, Tideborn are still a target of "racism," you could say. People are used to working with the typical 6, so they're not to friendly with trying out a new partner. What's worse, Assassins are horrible party partners 90% of the time because they're just such a solo-focused class. This means people think "well if sins don't have much to contribute teamwork-wise then that must mean Psys don't either!" People shout for Wizards and Archers for FC runs all the time, but pigs fly every time someone shouts for a Psy. Despite this, plenty of people have told me they absolutely love doing FC runs with me/Psys because they have superior DPS to Wizzies and they can help stun like Blademasters.




And finally, Psys vs. Wizards in general:


A Wizard is a solid character. The thing people need to realize is that a Wiz has damage skills with 300% weapon damage (pretty sure Wiz weapons are superior to soulspheres damage-wise, too) on them and a buff that doubles their physical defense. This means that Wizards hit hella hard and their defense is actually pretty decent end-game. A wizard doesn't have many ailments, but the ones they do have cast faster than Psy ailments.


Psys on the other hand, are strategical characters. We don't have any physical defense buffs and we don't really have any skills that breach the 200% weapon damage mark. What's more, because of this, we either trade out our defense for harder offense or vice versa. This means that a Psy will always be squishy as hell or a low damage dealer; never both. However, we have a crapton of ailments to work with and superior casting speed.



I typically tell people this:

If a wizard and a Psy are told to kill people when they don't have any chi, the Wiz will do better. If they both have full chi, the Psy will do better. In long battles Wizards stay strong, whereas Psys perform amazing in short bursts but lack stamina to last long.

A Psy focuses on reaching an extremely powerful level at the cost of being weaker at other times, whereas a Wiz just has good all-around stats.
A Psy that runs out to fight a barb with three sparks and Diminished Vigor ready on hand will probably succeed where the Wizard may fail. Should the Psy have none of that ready going into battle, then it probably won't do nearly as well as the wizard.

i sorta agree with this guy with most things.

For one, a wizard can play the way you want it to be played. i know wizzies who channel so fast its insane. they do those mountain seize in under 4 seconds and BIDS/BT in 2.5 seconds. And then i know wizards who can drop a 100k+ crit in pvp without batting an eyelash. A wizard is only as good as they are built and played.

And also, a wiz without chi is useless. Most of our damage dealing skills involve chi or we need chi to pull them off. Even our buffs to keep us alive require chi which is what makes sage appealing for some wizards. Give me chi and i can do 300k+ damage in 6 seconds.

Sakuba - Harshlands wrote: »

Dont compare a wiz to a psy lol

I never saw a wiz being able to tank FB 99 Bosses...i did today
And my gear isnt the best.

To abovepsoter...white voodoo on dragons?

Hard to hear lol

i know a friend who can tank every fb in game except polearm and gaurnob (though he hasnt tried). I can tank most fbs myself when i had +3 gear.


I can clear FC with one ulti per room. With my -chan gear they dont take as long and with BM dragon watching those mobs drop is beautiful.


The one thing i hate about play psy is
A. Mana
B. damage
C. not getting squads lol

But hey i had to deal with all of those as a wiz, it just eventually went away.
Mana stopped being a problem around 60 when whatever i was trying to kill couldnt touch me. i swear quest was boring it was just spamming pyro > gush > pyro next. Damage i was satisfied with my damage until 99. People say wizards hit hard but i really havent noticed anything that made me say, HOLY **** THATS SOME AWESHUM DAMAGE until i got to 99. And not getting squads went away around 90. lol


but ya my thoughts on this there

EDIT: forgot teh color!

PenutButer - Dreamweaver

omg miz you're back ? 2.5 more weeks for me QQ

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

PenutButer - Dreamweaver wrote: »

omg miz you're back ? 2.5 more weeks for me QQ

if you still got those heavenrage boots and not charging a rediculous price, i will buy them

Longknife - Harshlands

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i sorta agree with this guy with most things.

For one, a wizard can play the way you want it to be played. i know wizzies who channel so fast its insane. they do those mountain seize in under 4 seconds and BIDS/BT in 2.5 seconds. And then i know wizards who can drop a 100k+ crit in pvp without batting an eyelash. A wizard is only as good as they are built and played.

And also, a wiz without chi is useless. Most of our damage dealing skills involve chi or we need chi to pull them off. Even our buffs to keep us alive require chi which is what makes sage appealing for some wizards. Give me chi and i can do 300k+ damage in 6 seconds.

The main reason I made the chi comparison is cause:

What are a Wizard's main defenses? The earth shield and their teleport skill, along with Force of Will and Sophoric Whisper as minor helpers. All of these can be used without full chi (yeah they need chi but only very low amounts that can be built up during the fight).

What are a Psy's defenses? Physical damage immunity, 6 second stun, immobilize, Soul of stunning/retaliation and White voodoo. First two require sparks, the third only has a 60% chance of working, fourth only works once and White voodoo nerfs our attack damage. I could fight a barb with two sparks and he won't even touch me. Without sparks though, I'll probably need immobilize to work or I may lose rather quickly.

All classes perform better with chi, but I think Psys suffer more than Wizards when they lack it.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

The main reason I made the chi comparison is cause:

What are a Wizard's main defenses? The earth shield and their teleport skill, along with Force of Will and Sophoric Whisper as minor helpers. All of these can be used without full chi (yeah they need chi but only very low amounts that can be built up during the fight).

What are a Psy's defenses? Physical damage immunity, 6 second stun, immobilize, Soul of stunning/retaliation and White voodoo. First two require sparks, the third only has a 60% chance of working, fourth only works once and White voodoo nerfs our attack damage. I could fight a barb with two sparks and he won't even touch me. Without sparks though, I'll probably need immobilize to work or I may lose rather quickly.

All classes perform better with chi, but I think Psys suffer more than Wizards when they lack it.

for me the only way i can beat a psy is if i have 220 chi. Other than that they earth vector and bye byeb:bye
220 chi > force of will > 220 chi > undine strike (to break SoR) > 220 chi > soporific whisper > 200 chi > blade tempest > 10k+ damage thanks for coming out!

Now that i think about it. If you already know a psy's tricks and you are playing against one, you can use their buffs against them lol...

Wizard is really a chi dependant class, while i play my psy it isnt as chi dependant pvp wise as my wiz. Most of the time my sparks go to psy will, earth vector or sage spark(for ninja attacks) but other than that i dont really use sparks.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »

The main reason I made the chi comparison is cause:

What are a Wizard's main defenses? The earth shield and their teleport skill, along with Force of Will and Sophoric Whisper as minor helpers. All of these can be used without full chi (yeah they need chi but only very low amounts that can be built up during the fight).

What are a Psy's defenses? Physical damage immunity, 6 second stun, immobilize, Soul of stunning/retaliation and White voodoo. First two require sparks, the third only has a 60% chance of working, fourth only works once and White voodoo nerfs our attack damage. I could fight a barb with two sparks and he won't even touch me. Without sparks though, I'll probably need immobilize to work or I may lose rather quickly.

All classes perform better with chi, but I think Psys suffer more than Wizards when they lack it.

i disagree, no chance vs with wizz soemtimes if dont have atleast 2spark, and still 2 too vsbarb enough only for tick his hiero if u dont got very very refined weapon.

back to white voodoo there the soulforce is nice powa, i heard have alot wizz who attack during souldburn toob:chuckle