Without 3bh's/packs?

vozzine

Hey

During my stay here in PWI, I've noticed a lot of attention on how hypers, packs, oracles, etc have "ruined" this game.

When I first started, my first perspective of this game was that its confusing and hard to level, as well as lacking content from the view of a low level. Of course, this was when packs and hypers were yet to be introduced.

Personally, I find that with the arrival of packs, methods of easier leveling, and others, it introduces PWI to many more opportunities for their content.

Being a free to play game, how else would they make money for future updates and ideas.

Without all these new methods of leveling, it limits PWI. How much content do you miss in between the levels 1-60 with hypers, oracles, 3bh's, versus 1-60 without? Not a lot. In fact, leveling would be so slow and boring that most would quit. Of course, there are those hardcore gamers that hit level 100 without. Are there a lot of them? No.

Without packs how would the merchanting be? Whole markets were created from them, giving many more choices to players. Catshops? Majority of them are selling pack items.

In all, the purpose of the PWI team to us is to increase the player population and content, with add-on events from time to time. In order to do that, they need money, players, and a wide variety of levels.

All of you say many of the old school players are quitting, etc etc, but have you ever though about how many new players they are gaining?

And those who say people level so fast that they cant play their class properly, its because they dont want to. Making them grind for hours to get a level will just make them quit. Thus is why you dont see them as much as old generation players, since they all already quit.

PWI: work towards to future.


b:kiss

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

You can buy levels, you can buy gear, so why play?

vozzine

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

You can buy levels, you can buy gear, so why play?

There is no "+5 levels" or tt90 in the boutique. If buy something like a hyper, you still need to play the game. It just makes it quicker and more convenient.

Think your leveling too fast or missing the game? Don't use them.

And after a statement like that, why does someone like yourself still play?

ACLucius - Archosaur

Bounty hunter and the Goshiki quest line alone are more than enough to make 1-60 go by very quickly. I will not say that packs were the worst thing to happen as they have made a lot of items available cheaper with tokens. The only problems I have is that the packs don't contain only perfect luck tokens and event mounts. Token of best luck did ruin things being able to be traded for 5 million in coins, and the equipment you can get via the packs is unnecessary. Perfect Hammer also ruined it in combination with chest of coins by making gold permanently 200k+. Hypers I believe were excessive in being able to get 12x exp, when I think it would have been more reasonable to be 6x max.

I will though defend bounty hunter quests though because that teaches early on what each class role is in a party and I consider it an important update. As I've said in another thread, I'm still working on my own suggestion for a revamping of the bounty hunter system, but it is still not ready for critique.

Anyways, packs were part of the problem, but only because of the contents of them. Pefect luck tokens and event mounts are great additions in my opinion, but the rest should go as far as I'm concerned.

LifeHunting - Heavens Tear

Seriously, on this topic. The only thing I find hypers useful is the abuse I can do with them in PQ for spirit gain. (seeing as BM's only problem is spirit , well....until frost)

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Ok fine I'll be more specific.

What's the problems with excessive bounty hunter and hypers? It makes a larger portion of the player base that gets to higher levels with no ability to play their class. It creates players that are XP addicted and never focus on gear. Now sure a simple solution would be "never go with randoms" but the fact is you will always have to go with randoms eventually. Maybe someone in your guild you want to help farm his TT90, maybe it's late and your freinds aren't on. But there will be times when you squad with randoms, and you will see tons of 9x with no ability to play their class and terrible gear.

Try doing delta when your mage has no skill, has 7x gear unrefined, 4khp and no charm. I've done a FC run where I had a level 90 BM with unrefined 7x gear sharded with common evasion shards, our archer had more HP than him. I've seen a BM that all throughout his 9x levels used OHT axes with +100% max endurance, and only used axes, never touched fists, poles or swords.

vozzine

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

Ok fine I'll be more specific.

What's the problems with excessive bounty hunter and hypers? It makes a larger portion of the player base that gets to higher levels with no ability to play their class. It creates players that are XP addicted and never focus on gear. Now sure a simple solution would be "never go with randoms" but the fact is you will always have to go with randoms eventually. Maybe someone in your guild you want to help farm his TT90, maybe it's late and your freinds aren't on. But there will be times when you squad with randoms, and you will see tons of 9x with no ability to play their class and terrible gear.

Try doing delta when your mage has no skill, has 7x gear unrefined, 4khp and no charm. I've done a FC run where I had a level 90 BM with unrefined 7x gear sharded with common evasion shards, our archer had more HP than him. I've seen a BM that all throughout his 9x levels used OHT axes with +100% max endurance, and only used axes, never touched fists, poles or swords.

So your point is that you disagree on how some
people play this game.

There is no rule whatever in any mmorpg that you need to have good gear and skill in order to play.

Maybe his definition of fun is getting high level, even with bad gear.

LifeHunting - Heavens Tear

nvm, youtube BBCode don't work here

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

Yes I beleive that it is bad as it causes people to not have skill at their class and not being able to survive in most instances. Are you honestly saying we should encourage people who can't play their class and cant survive in instances? Are you saying it's a good thing that we have 9x mages running around with 4k hp and cant get past wave 2 in delta without getting sent to 1k?

Knownase - Heavens Tear

vozzine wrote: »

So your point is that you disagree on how some
people play this game.

There is no rule whatever in any mmorpg that you need to have good gear and skill in order to play.

Maybe his definition of fun is getting high level, even with bad gear.

Sure, go ahead have fun, even with bad gear, but then, most people will NOT invite you to TTs, RBs, BH if you keep dying or deal poor damage with such gear.

anwynd

packs have brought some good stuff to the game but mostly bad stuff & about the BH thing if they just lowered the exp(not the spirit i luv me some spirit) you get from BH in lvls 40-70 i think tht could help a bit or another idea would be just go bck to the 1 bh thing a day tht would prob help things tob:victory

Macenza - Archosaur

vozzine wrote: »

All of you say many of the old school players are quitting, etc etc, but have you ever though about how many new players they are gaining?

And those who say people level so fast that they cant play their class properly, its because they dont want to. Making them grind for hours to get a level will just make them quit. Thus is why you dont see them as much as old generation players, since they all already quit.

PWI: work towards to future.


b:kiss

yea, they are gaining new players, players that are quiting not to long after because not all of them can CS and *get bored of grinding to quit*, its the way ppl are, some ppl will quit from grind, some ppl will suck it up, attempt to grind and have there reward later.

problem with u atm is u seem to fail to realize what ur ment to do in an mmo, traditionaly ur supposed to grind for ur lvls, its the way its been throughout 80% of mmos, so why is this so special?

the answer is it isnt, its basicly an official server, with option to power level private server style, which intently ruins the game i think, i loved grinding/aoe/zhen lvling in groups, met alot of ppl that way, now, its only dungeons.

truekossy

vozzine wrote: »

All of you say many of the old school players are quitting, etc etc, but have you ever though about how many new players they are gaining?

Not that many, actually. Ask any of the old school players what the starter towns used to look like. How the mines around west archo was always swamped with people and you had to squad to be sure you'd get your kills quickly. Ask them how easy it used to be to find zhen squads for getting through those tough spots where quests dried up. Ask them how populated Silver Pool, Swamps, Nightscream, SP, and even sometimes Tusk Town were for great PK battles against folks your level and higher. Ask them how you could easily find squads for near anything in the lower levels because there were just so many people around.



Now ask them what they think of those same things today. Odds are, they'll all sigh and be upset that all those areas where you could meet a swarm of new people are empty save for a few alts of high levels and maybe one or two truly new players.

fulgida

vozzine wrote: »

Being a free to play game, how else would they make money for future updates and ideas.

Well, for example, they might sell access to additional emotes. Maybe some dances, or some additional emotions could be nice.

Or, some people have been wanting **** marriages so maybe they could sell those? ("****" would be an item which you equip in your kitty shop location, and if you are **** you can only embrace other people with your gender that also have "****" equipped, and you would get a different color in the squad list.)

Or, they could also sell early access to new game content. Here, they would make an announcement about the public release and they would gradually reduce cost in reverse-auction style..

Or, they could sell the new cigar flying mount for humans so people could do something with those lighter stores... (Ok, I sort of hope they do not do this.)

Celestyna - Heavens Tear

truekossy wrote: »

Not that many, actually. Ask any of the old school players what the starter towns used to look like. How the mines around west archo was always swamped with people and you had to squad to be sure you'd get your kills quickly. Ask them how easy it used to be to find zhen squads for getting through those tough spots where quests dried up. Ask them how populated Silver Pool, Swamps, Nightscream, SP, and even sometimes Tusk Town were for great PK battles against folks your level and higher. Ask them how you could easily find squads for near anything in the lower levels because there were just so many people around.



Now ask them what they think of those same things today. Odds are, they'll all sigh and be upset that all those areas where you could meet a swarm of new people are empty save for a few alts of high levels and maybe one or two truly new players.

just wanted to agree with this b:surrender I miss them days..

I happily leveled my cleric(up to 90) and barb(to 70ish) mage(60ish) with no bh oracle or hyper help. My veno when i come back to pwi after a long break was only lvl 45, and i tried to do quests with her but it was a desolated wasteland. boss quests? psh if it was not for my bf's veno or other guildies from my cleric's guild she would have never got them done. I still do quests on her only to level her pets now as bh per time spent is alot more effective then grinding.
My Psychic is even worse, i have not done a quest on her since lvl 35.. she hasnt even unlocked the portal to some of the cities she should have been to by now. I have not done a boss quest that was not part of her culti. heck.. she was 48 a week ago and is now 64 just with bh/tide quests/ crazy. I look at her quest log and cringe.. it drives me nuts when there is stuff undone, but it seems so pointless to do them.

unforantly they cant undo the changes made. and it wont ever be like it once was b:sad

Michael_Dark - Lost City

vozzine wrote: »

Without all these new methods of leveling, it limits PWI. How much content do you miss in between the levels 1-60 with hypers, oracles, 3bh's, versus 1-60 without? Not a lot. In fact, leveling would be so slow and boring that most would quit. Of course, there are those hardcore gamers that hit level 100 without. Are there a lot of them? No.

The game isn't about leveling... or at least it really wasn't. Leveling used to be the by-product of actually playing the game... getting to meet new people in your level range... questing with them... seeing them day in and day out at your same grinding/questing areas, and by the time you got high level, you had a pretty good base of friends and would do stuff together.

Getting to 100 so quickly, many of these people complain about not getting parties to do their BH or their HH/Nirvana runs and end up cash shopping them because they level so quickly they've never played at a pace to where if it takes you a few weeks or a couple months to farm a piece of gear... they get mad, or cash shop it when the goal wasn't just to have the best equipment, the goal was having fun farming it and the reward of actually completing the goal.

I even went back on a different thread, covered a whole month of posts. From 3-17-09 to 4-17-09... page 600 to page 642. You know what I found? Not a single QQ thread about how hard it was to level. Most people thought it was just fine.

This whole 'speed leveling' thing PWI introduced was not about making people happy, it was to make more money.

The reason I haven't really spent any time leveling any alts is that it isn't like this anymore and it isn't fun to speed level through everything. The fun was the adventure of getting there, not all of a sudden being 100.

Fiery_Demon - Heavens Tear

vozzine wrote: »

When I first started, my first perspective of this game was that its confusing and hard to level, as well as lacking content from the view of a low level. Of course, this was when packs and hypers were yet to be introduced.

I have to disagree here. I've always thought that leveling to 60 has been interesting and fun, also quite easy even before the hypers/packs/oracles/bounty hunter quests. I also think that it's not the low level people who have a lack of content. At my level (85 that is), I barely find anything fun to do. I like to level slow and enjoy the process, but with having just a few quests, only dailies, dailies, dailies...gets boring after a while, doing the same stuff all over again. Some people would say "why won't you do FF or TT?" Well, I've never tried FF and I don't think I'm ever going to after what I've heard of it, and I've done dozens of TT runs only to get crappy drops. Not so fun, imo. And the people I've squaded with for quests aren't very fun to be with, either. I'm sick of the people who think of themselves as "pro" after they hit level 80 and call everyone who won't do what they want, a "fail noob", and refuse to squad with anyone who hasn't done TT/FF before. That's why I like to do things solo. But of course, there is still the 20% of people who are very nice and helpful even at level 100. So, coming back to the main idea, what I want to say is, I still find the game fun enough to play, just that on low levels it was much more fun. And then the packs and sales ruined it for me. I respect everyone's opinion on them and I understand why others might like all the changes, I just... don't.

PlumDumb - Heavens Tear

had one guy in my guild ask where to farm hell/heaven mats.I sid go to 1k streams and eneter the blue door or red door..he goes and he said he cannot enter..this is a lvl 90 u know...FF so much he dont know a damn thing.

poor guy and im sure there are more developing out there as well.

also back then when i started..those were the real players of pwi makign it to 90's way before all this babied bs with bh's and ****.

buttercupcruella

There are TONS of threads talking about FAIL game AFTER packs, hypers and all. ALOT of threads saying how WIN this game is AFTER the packs and all that. Just a matter of opinion.

But, I'll repeat:

You wanna be stupid and power lvl to 100 and then QQ and quit because you don't have anything to do, don't have friends, etc. There is no tt90 in boutique, sure, BUT: one can spend a lot of money (or less while being lucky) and get the epic stuff from the packs. Also, if one buys a lot of gold (charges zen), one can sell it or the items he bought it with, making it possible for him/her to BUY tt90. Not everybody farms the mats for it, you know???

There are many people who do not know how to play or what is what in game 'cause they just oracled they way up to w/e lvl. I believe a lot of us had encounters with TB lvl 80+ doing all of their low fbs without having a clue what to do... (this unfortunately is not only related to tbs).

Heck, we play this game because we like it for whatever reason. I like to cruise the world, do this, do that instead of sitting in 1 spot for weeks.... But that's just me. People want to abuse all the help that is given, let them. If they are smart, they will use it with caution, if they ain't..... it depends on YOU how you will react to them.b:victory

/endrannt

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

You wanna be stupid and power lvl to 100 and then QQ and quit because you don't have anything to do, don't have friends, etc. There is no tt90 in boutique, sure, BUT: one can spend a lot of money (or less while being lucky) and get the epic stuff from the packs. Also, if one buys a lot of gold (charges zen), one can sell it or the items he bought it with, making it possible for him/her to BUY tt90. Not everybody farms the mats for it, you know???

I remember doing 2-3 with a certain level 100 psychic on raging tides, had full TT99 gear at the time, now has full nirvana. Didn't even know how to run 2-3 because he had never been in there before.

azurluen

PlumDumb - Heavens Tear wrote: »

had one guy in my guild ask where to farm hell/heaven mats.I sid go to 1k streams and eneter the blue door or red door..he goes and he said he cannot enter..this is a lvl 90 u know...FF so much he dont know a damn thing.

poor guy and im sure there are more developing out there as well.

also back then when i started..those were the real players of pwi makign it to 90's way before all this babied bs with bh's and ****.

That, more than fult of Cashop, it's because they don't know how to use Google. Or the Databases there, or that. I bet, even if he play all the 'hard' way to that level, will still don't know where to get them. =o_O=

Mosz - Heavens Tear

tt90 is not in boutique but tt99 basically is (chips) also end game weapons and ornaments and cape and tome and helm and boots and rank chest, wow is that not enough
lvling to 70 in this game was really easy, 70-90 took some skill, 90+ took some knowledge (cube, RBO, spiders, OVS, ect)
if you think lvling in this game was ever hard you havent played the majority of mmos(especially korean ones where the grind starts at 2x-3x)

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

azurluen wrote: »

That, more than fult of Cashop, it's because they don't know how to use Google. Or the Databases there, or that. I bet, even if he play all the 'hard' way to that level, will still don't know where to get them. =o_O=

He's saying that he is level 90 and hasn't even gone demon or sage yet which is pretty bad IMO. Before bounty hunter people had usually made up their minds by level 80 which path they were going to take, being level 90 and not even having access to heaven/hell is a joke.

Rillien - Heavens Tear

I know this game doesn't have much lore/storyline throughout the environment [especially not anymore], but leveling from 1-60 was the best part! I got quite a bit of entertainment reading some of the quest dialogues and how ridiculous/funny/interesting /badly translated they were.

Quests like Token of the 7 were actually pretty fun to me, where every 5 levels from 30~65ish you got a new task to obtain another token. I'd look forward to hitting that mark and getting the new quest. Or randomly exploring 1k streams at level 50ish and discovering the hidden questline there. It was also fun 'graduating' certain towns and villages in the progression of quests and moving onto the next area, discovering the bosses only later to kill them, and progressing being able to do new instances.

Those are things you miss when you hyper from 1-60. And contrary to [now] popular belief, it's really not hard to get to 60 in a short amount of time if you want. Everyone wants to rush; what's the point of rushing?

RawDawg - Heavens Tear

vozzine wrote: »

have you ever though about how many new players they are gaining?

I laughed so hard at this. Take a trip to the lower-level starting towns and look around, then get back to us.

RedsRose - Lost City

truekossy wrote: »

Not that many, actually. Ask any of the old school players what the starter towns used to look like. How the mines around west archo was always swamped with people and you had to squad to be sure you'd get your kills quickly. Ask them how easy it used to be to find zhen squads for getting through those tough spots where quests dried up. Ask them how populated Silver Pool, Swamps, Nightscream, SP, and even sometimes Tusk Town were for great PK battles against folks your level and higher. Ask them how you could easily find squads for near anything in the lower levels because there were just so many people around.

Now ask them what they think of those same things today. Odds are, they'll all sigh and be upset that all those areas where you could meet a swarm of new people are empty save for a few alts of high levels and maybe one or two truly new players.

^ This exactly b:surrender

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

The game isn't about leveling... or at least it really wasn't. Leveling used to be the by-product of actually playing the game... getting to meet new people in your level range... questing with them... seeing them day in and day out at your same grinding/questing areas, and by the time you got high level, you had a pretty good base of friends and would do stuff together.

Getting to 100 so quickly, many of these people complain about not getting parties to do their BH or their HH/Nirvana runs and end up cash shopping them because they level so quickly they've never played at a pace to where if it takes you a few weeks or a couple months to farm a piece of gear... they get mad, or cash shop it when the goal wasn't just to have the best equipment, the goal was having fun farming it and the reward of actually completing the goal.

It is only when people get to level 100 that they realize all of the "game content" is for lower levels b:sweat 1-60 was easy....60-80 = Swamps and Burning Heart and tons of pk, mainly the swamps -.-....60-90 tons of zhen parties and grinding at fish/undines...80-90 was (for me) all about spamming fb's for people...etc

Level's 60-90 is where I and most learned the most about their character's and how to play. This is what SO many are missing imo....New instances, new areas, tougher (at the time) mobs...These are the crucial levels...

Hell, FB's used to be screamed on wc constantly....b:sad

When leveling my alts, I was amazingly surprised at how easy it was, too easy compared to leveling up Rose. On Rose, I have done every single quest that I have been able to find. On my alts, the Find Quest log is insanely large since all you need is BH's, cs, wq, cube, etc. You do not even need Oracle's or Hyper's to level since all of the dailies give you a vast amount of your exp...

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I remember doing 2-3 with a certain level 100 psychic on raging tides, had full TT99 gear at the time, now has full nirvana. Didn't even know how to run 2-3 because he had never been in there before.

*sigh*

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver

I think everyone is in a rush nowadays to level quickly because they want to get to the higher levels as quick as possible. However, as many people already mentioned, what is the point of rushing to the higher levels when you have not even slowly experienced all the quests, dungeons, and strategies that you could have gone through at lower levels? It is a real pain to see barbs that do not know how to tank, or venos that never pass spark or amp. I remember having a veno that was 9x not knowing the way through FB 79 and how to pull.

Thing is, lots of people are relying too heavily on cash shop. Those hypers, combined with BHs and CS, makes people lazier and lazier, so they end up not questing and just go on for an hour or so for those purposes only. What happened to questing and running some instances with friends to get a kick out of it? If you level up too fast, and start doing instances without the experience, you're only going to find it much more frustrating.

RedsRose - Lost City

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

What happened to questing and running some instances with friends to get a kick out of it?

Some of us have EPIC stories of instances gone wrong too b:chuckleb:chuckle

But 100% where the fun and frustration was at BUT you learned!!

Lythianaa - Dreamweaver

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Some of us have EPIC stories of instances gone wrong too b:chuckleb:chuckle

But 100% where the fun and frustration was at BUT you learned!!

Exactly! I think it is much more fun when you go through instances with others just to try new stuff out. You learn from your mistakes when you die, or successfully kill a boss, for example. That's the fun out of it. Nobody is perfect, but people always have room to learn more.

truekossy

RedsRose - Lost City wrote: »

Some of us have EPIC stories of instances gone wrong too b:chuckleb:chuckle

But 100% where the fun and frustration was at BUT you learned!!

All those little "oops" moments when we used to have to run our FBs on-level because we were the high levels around. Or going through 89s unwined because you needed the culti just to be able to farm the wine mats if you didn't want to buy the (overpriced) mats in the cash shop. Heck, even just randomly trying out new things to see if we could (Group of high 3X and low 4X venos charging into 51 just to see if we could... we got slaughtered and loved every second of it). And, of course, the awesome PK stories and wars that used to be there. I bet none of these new people know what a zhen party is or even how fun it used to be to crash them right in the middle of a big pull.


And the sad thing is, most will never get to learn most of these things on their own because the few who do get a clue can't really experience it for themselves and have to rely on the knowledge of those of us who were here from the start. After all, Gamma and Delta may be insanely common and simple now, but let's not forget who had to figure it out and then pass on the knowledge.



(On a side note, I miss back when level 1 tomes could be found for less than 500k after rebirth had just been cracked and people suddenly started flooding to it for those awesome rewards and how amazing it was to have tomes other than the rare x-mas ones)

RedsRose - Lost City

truekossy wrote: »

All those little "oops" moments when we used to have to run our FBs on-level because we were the high levels around. Or going through 89s unwined because you needed the culti just to be able to farm the wine mats if you didn't want to buy the (overpriced) mats in the cash shop. Heck, even just randomly trying out new things to see if we could (Group of high 3X and low 4X venos charging into 51 just to see if we could... we got slaughtered and loved every second of it). And, of course, the awesome PK stories and wars that used to be there. I bet none of these new people know what a zhen party is or even how fun it used to be to crash them right in the middle of a big pull.

And the sad thing is, most will never get to learn most of these things on their own because the few who do get a clue can't really experience it for themselves and have to rely on the knowledge of those of us who were here from the start. After all, Gamma and Delta may be insanely common and simple now, but let's not forget who had to figure it out and then pass on the knowledge.

^ Amen to this

Lol @ charging into fb51...I did that with sooo many of the fb's just to see.

Zhen parties were amazing and a ton of fun.

Getting crashed when Zhening or even questing at level 30. The Swamps >_>...sooooo many memories of the damn Swamps b:embarrass

Learning Delta had some HILARIOUS moments...

*sigh* b:chuckle