Demon/Sage Comparison

_Leif - Lost City

There's been a lot of 'zomg I can't decide between demon or sage halp halp meee' lately so I thought I'd compile the list of update demon/sage skills and start a discussion on them. So without further ado...

Demon/Sage for Assassins

Level 89 Skills

Triple Spark
Discharges three Sparks to recover 20% of your maximum HP, add 500% weapon damage for 15 seconds. Grants invincibility for 3 seconds after the discharge.
Sage: Reduce all damage taken by 25% for 15 seconds
Demon Increase attack speed by 25% for 15 seconds
Personal opinion: This is the big one. Sage spark has more PvE applications (tanking bosses) than demon spark. Couple of things to consider before choosing demon/sage based on the spark. 1) You need 2.5 attacks per second to run a continuous spark chain using RDS, Tackling Slash, and Inner Harmony. You need 5 attacks per second to run a continuous spark with out using any of these skills. To get 2.5 aps with demon spark, you only need -.2 interval. To get 2.5 aps with sage spark, you need -.4 interval (this is assuming you're using daggers). 2) The attack rate bonus can be replaced with the genie move relentless courage. This is most useful in pvp, as relentless courage can have a higher attack rate, but a lower duration

Twin Strike
A stabbing thrust with both daggers. Deals base physical damage plus 2094.5.
Sage: Has a 20% chance to gain 30 chi.
Demon Channeling and Casting times are both reduced by 0.1 second.
Personal opinion: They're both stupid.


Slipstream Strike
A powerful strike with the full force of the arm. Deals base physical damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus 6633.
Sage: Has 30% chance to increase your attack speed by 20% for 3 seconds.
Demon Cooldown is reduced by 1 seconds.
Personal opinion: The attack speed increase on sage is nice, if it procs. I wouldn't rely on it in a pvp scenario, but could be useful in PvE when spark spamming and when you don't want to waste genie stamina on relentless courage. Demon's shorter cool down is completely useless (you'll notice that when the devs run out of ideas for demon/sage skills they tend to just shorten cool downs and save chi).


Raving Slash
Deals damage equal to your base attack plus 3172.1 physical damage. Decreases target's movement speed by 50%. Lasts for 5 seconds.
Sage: Increases your Attack Level by 10, and reduces your Defense Level by 10 for 5 seconds.
Demon Has a 40% chance to Slow target by 90% for 5 seconds.
Personal opinion: Hands down sage wins. +10% more damage >>> a 40% chance to reduce speed.

Deep Sting
Deals damage equal to your base attack plus 1492.4 physical damage. Has a 95% chance to put target to sleep for 5 seconds.
Sage: Cooldown is reduced by 2 seconds.
Demon Puts target to sleep upon hit.
Personal opinion: Both are whatever. Nice, but not deal breakers. I'd say the demon version is slightly better tho, as I don't find myself ever spamming deep sting. I'd rather go for the 100% chance thn a shorter cooldown

Shadow Walk
Enter stealth mode. Costs 10 mana per second. Only usable when out of combat.
Sage: Reduces the Mana cost by 3 points per second.
Demon Casting time is reduced by 0.5 seconds.
Personal opinion: Sage is nicer, but more of a luxury than actually amazing. No need for shorter casting time as you can't do it while in combat anyways.

Focused Mind
Increases your chance to evade enemy skills by 25%, Lasts for 60 seconds.
Sage: Evasion is increased by an additional 8%
Demon Adds a 20% chance to evade negative status.
Personal opinion: It really boils down to personal preference. I have tidal up when I PvP. I only use Focused Mind for PvE situations (grinding, aoeing in FC) where I know I don't have a chance of getting debuffed. For me, additional evasion is nicer, though I do see the appeal of demon.

Puncture Wound
Deals base physical damage plus 100% of weapon damage. Causes the target to bleed for 4676 physical damage over 9 seconds.
Sage: The max bleed damage is increased by 20%.
Demon The bleed duration is reduced by 3 seconds, but the total damage remains.
Personal opinion: Both are semi-pointless. At this level, slip stream does more damage. Sage does have a slight edge on demon tho in terms of overall damage.

Wolf Emblem
Increases your critical strike damage by 20%. Lasts 30 seconds.
Sage: Duration is increased up to 30 minutes. Cooldown is reduced to 8 seconds. The max critical damage increasing effect is decreased by 20%
Demon The max critical damage increasing effect is increased to 40%.
Personal opinion: Pretty conflicted on this one. Half hour buff is nice, tho the demon version is 20% more damage. In the end, more damage > convenience.

Knife Throw
Throw your dagger at the target. Deals base physical damage plus 1888.5. Has a 70% chance to interrupt channeling.
Sage: Cooldown is reduced by 5 seconds.
Demon The chance to interrupt target's channeling is increased by 30%
Personal opinion: I never use knife throw. I have a bow for the occasions where I want to hit things from far away. That said, demon knife throw is pretty sweet. 100% chance to interrupt channeling is great for PvE, and even has applications in PvP (Knife throw while a wiz is channeling BID).

Tide Form
Transform into a fish. Increases your Defense Level by 10 and your Swim speed by 80%.
Sage: Increases Swim speed by 20% more.
Demon Defense Level is increased by 3 more points.
Personal opinion: No.

Wind Push
Increases own movement speed by 100%. Lasts for 10 seconds.
Sage: Cooldown reduces by 10 seconds.
Demon Duration is increased by 3 seconds.
Personal opinion: They're both okay.

Level 92 Skills
*Note: Level 92 skills currently require you to have finished your level 99 culti. Maybe it'll be patched at some point in time, but probably not b:surrender

Rib Strike
Stab up under the enemy's ribs. Deals base physical damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus 4495. Reduce target's attack speed by 50% for 30 seconds.
Sage: Adds an effect that reduces target's Max Health by 10% for 10 seconds.
Demon Increases the attack speed reducing effect by 15%.
Personal opinion: Skills are starting to get good b:laugh. Sage rib strike, though it sounds great, has very limited applications. It's not as good as sharpened tooth arrow (you'll most likely have an archer in your squad), and doesn't reduce very much hp in pvp (even on high hp barbs). That said, demon rib strike nets you 65% reduction in attack speed, which is sweet.

Throatcut
Deals damage equal to your base attack plus 100% weapon damage and another 7331.2 physical attack. Has a 95% chance to interrupt enemy channeling. Silences target for 4 seconds.
Sage: Guaranteed to interrupt target's channeling, and silence your target.
Demon Has a 25% chance to cause an effect that increases the damage taken by your target by 25%. This effect co-exists with Heaven's Flame, but cancels the effect of Extreme Poison and Subsea Strike.
Personal opinion: I can count the number of times my throatcut hasn't proc'd on one hand. 100% chance to silence seems like overkill, especially when compared to demon's potential amp effect. Given the choice, demon is better. However, I wouldn't call this a deal-breaker, the 25% chance to proc is a bit low to make it a reliable skill.

Shadow Escape
Force yourself into stealth. Costs 10 Mana per second.
Sage: Dispels all negative status.
Demon Cooldown is reduced by 15 seconds.
Personal opinion: Has you ever force stealthed after a pk and died from nix bleed while stealthed? No more

Bloodpaint
Grants a shield to all friendly targets within 10 meters that will
absorb 2% of all physical melee damage. Lasts for 60 minutes.
Sage: The health absorbing effect is increased by 3%.
Demon For 18 seconds, Evasion is increased by 50%.
Personal opinion: 3% bloodpaint b:dirty. Nuf said

Deaden Nerves
Avoid one attack that would kill you within the next 120 seconds. Recovers 20% HP upon avoiding death.
Sage: Duration is increased by 30.
Demon Recovered Health is increased up to 35%.
Personal opinion: 10% hp return is not a big deal, especially considering the fact that you should be wearing a charm in high level pvp where this is mainly applicable. 30 seconds off the cool down means that you'll be able to recast only 30 seconds after it wears off. Win

Tackling Slash
Deals damage equal to your base physical attack plus 5210.8 physical damage. Immobilizes target for 9 seconds and increases own Chi by 50.
Sage: The immobilize duration is increased by 2 seconds.
Demon Adds an effect that reduces target's movement speed by 50% for 20 seconds.
Personal opinion: Know what's worse than running slowly? Not being able to run at all

Chill of the Deep
Reduces your attack speed by 100%. Increases your Attack Level by 30. Lasts 10 minutes.
Sage: Attack Level is increased by 5 more points.
Demon Attack Speed only reduced by 70%.
Personal opinion: Sage is better for skills, demon is better for normal attacks. Note that you'd need a hell of a lot of interval to get any use out of demon chill.

Shadow Jump
Instantly move to the target's location (30 meter range).
Sage: Reduces the Chi cost by 10.
Demon The cast range is increased by 35 meters.
Personal opinion: Demon is better, but not a big deal.

Maze Steps
Increases own movement speed by 100%. Immune to Stun and Immobilize. Lasts for 10 seconds.
Sage: Effect duration is increased by 2 seconds.
Demon Adds an effect that increases your Evasion by 80% for 10 seconds.
Personal opinion: Sage is better, but not a big deal.

Level 99 Skills

Earthen Rift
Detonate the ground beneath the enemy. Deals base physical damage plus
400% of weapon damage to all enemy units within 8 meters.
Sage: The additional damage is increased by 430%.
Demon Attack range is increased by 2 more meters.
Personal opinion: If you're using earthen rift, you should definitely be using subsea first. Since subsea and earthen have the same attack range, there's no need for a 2 meter increase on rift.

Subsea Strike
Instantly strikes all nearby targets. Deals base physical damage plus 6541.1 to all targets within 8 meters. Increases all damage taken by the target by 30% for 8 seconds. This skill works with the Heaven's Flame skill. This skill will cancel the Extreme Poison skill.
Sage: The damage taken increasing effect is amplified to 50%
Demon The effect duration is increased by 7 seconds.
Personal opinion: 50% amp lets you do holy **** damage with rift/bramble

Headhunt
Deals damage equal to your base attack plus 100% weapon damage and another 8018.1 physical attack. Stuns enemy for 5 seconds.
Sage: Has a 50% chance to reduce Spark cost by 1.
Demon Stun time is increased by 1 second.
Personal opinion: If we weren't oozing chi from every pore of our bodies, I'd say sage was better. As it is... longer stuns are a must in pvp.

Power Dash
Deals damage equal to your base physical attack plus 3831.8 physical damage. Increases your Critical Hit Rate by 40%. Lasts for 8 seconds.
Sage: Increases your critical chance by 10%.
Demon Has a 30% chance to add a 3 second immobilize effect.
Personal opinion: Can hit 80+% crit rate with sage

Tidal Protection
Increases your chance to avoid negative status effects by 50%.
Lasts 60 seconds.
Sage: Negative status Evasion is increased by an additional 16%.
Demon Damage Evasion is increased by 10%.
Personal opinion: One of the best sage skills. 66% chance to evade negative status effects. Not 100% positive on what can/can't be evaded by tidal protection. Confirmed that stun, sleep, seal, all apply.

Rising Dragon Strike
Deals damage equal to your base physical attack plus 100% weapon damage and another 3643.5 physical damage. Increases own Chi by 150.
Sage: Increases Chi by 180.
Demon Cooldown is reduced by 5 seconds.
Personal opinion: Sage not only gains more immediate chi, but averages slightly higher chi gain per minute than demon. In other words, the decrease in cooldown of demon RDS isn't enough to compensate for the extra 30 chi gained by sage.

Inner Harmony
nstantly gain 200 Chi.
Sage: Has a 30% chance to recover 100 more Chi.
Demon Recovers an additional 10% of Max Health.
Personal opinion: The extra chance at chi is better than the 10% heal, tho the low proc chance makes it somewhat unreliable.

Shadow Teleport
Instantly move to the target's location. Stuns the target for 3 seconds.
Sage: Cooldown is reduced by 30 seconds.
Demon The stun duration is increased by 2 seconds.
Personal opinion: One of the better demon skills. 5 second stun from a range of 35 meters is just ridiculous

_Leif - Lost City

Cause idk if ill need more space b:surrender

Rated_PG - Raging Tide

Nicely done I have to say. I read up on both before and so on, but I have always liked more of the sages' skills better, even though some of the demons skills are good, but I, myself, am a skill spammer by heart, and more atk lvl, plus stun durations etc. = a dang good time, plus 5% overall bp?, thats a no contest, but I am a hardcore bleed lover and more damage is....well, more damage. Overally in my opinion sage is way more epic, but people go demon for demon spark and some good things like an extra 20% crit (which i want for sage T.T). My one want for sage though is th 35% health recovery from deaden nerves, instead of just 20, because if your hp falls before your charm can catch it etc, it may save your life with that extra 15%, but it's one of the highly debateable/preference skills. (Not a deal breaker in my opinion). I need more crit% for wolf emblem T.T

Trawne - Lost City

Rated_PG - Raging Tide wrote: »

Nicely done I have to say. I read up on both before and so on, but I have always liked more of the sages' skills better, even though some of the demons skills are good, but I, myself, am a skill spammer by heart, and more atk lvl, plus stun durations etc. = a dang good time, plus 5% overall bp?, thats a no contest, but I am a hardcore bleed lover and more damage is....well, more damage. Overally in my opinion sage is way more epic, but people go demon for demon spark and some good things like an extra 20% crit (which i want for sage T.T). My one want for sage though is th 35% health recovery from deaden nerves, instead of just 20, because if your hp falls before your charm can catch it etc, it may save your life with that extra 15%, but it's one of the highly debateable/preference skills. (Not a deal breaker in my opinion). I need more crit% for wolf emblem T.T

Sage BP is 3% total, not 5% total. it's still very nice and easily noticeable.
Also i think you meant 2% crit for demon over sage if you were referring to dagger devotion, though power dash for sage gets 10% boost

NightReaper - Lost City

sry, but i think demon maze steps is better cause of the add of evasion (80% + b:pleased)...b:victory

Trawne - Lost City

NightReaper - Lost City wrote: »

sry, but i think demon maze steps is better cause of the add of evasion (80% + b:pleased)...b:victory

debatable. i do like the evasion boost since i use it when fighting bm's/barbs as an anti stun

the extra 2 seconds would be nice also for this when i unstealth to gank a single target in the middle of 20 then re-stealth

Rated_PG - Raging Tide

Trawne - Lost City wrote: »

Sage BP is 3% total, not 5% total. it's still very nice and easily noticeable.
/QUOTE]

oo through all i have read I always thought it meant it adds an extra 3% =\ woops xD.


Edit: and if you were talking to me about the crit %'s, I was referring to:


Wolf Emblem
Increases your critical strike damage by 20%. Lasts 30 seconds.
Sage: Duration is increased up to 30 minutes. Cooldown is reduced to 8 seconds. The max critical damage increasing effect is decreased by 20%
Demon The max critical damage increasing effect is increased to 40%.
Personal opinion: Pretty conflicted on this one. Half hour buff is nice, tho the demon version is 20% more damage. In the end, more damage > convenience.

Twsted - Raging Tide

wooow all the ppl that went demon are gonna be tight

Trawne - Lost City

Rated_PG - Raging Tide wrote: »

oo through all i have read I always thought it meant it adds an extra 3% =\ woops xD.


Edit: and if you were talking to me about the crit %'s, I was referring to:


Wolf Emblem
Increases your critical strike damage by 20%. Lasts 30 seconds.
Sage: Duration is increased up to 30 minutes. Cooldown is reduced to 8 seconds. The max critical damage increasing effect is decreased by 20%
Demon The max critical damage increasing effect is increased to 40%.
Personal opinion: Pretty conflicted on this one. Half hour buff is nice, tho the demon version is 20% more damage. In the end, more damage > convenience.

ah the crit damage. i thought you meant crit chance b:thanks

Astrohawke - Lost City

The way I see it, demon does what it's supposed to do well and that's interval. What does it matter that some of the sage skills are better if demon will probably never use them anyway.

From a PvE perspective, sage has better AoEs and of course better dagger devotion making it better for frost runs. For bosses, both will be normal attacking because even a sage with high interval will do more damage than skill spamming. Demon kills bosses faster with 1 extra aps. Sage has better survival with 25% reduction from spark but demon can still hold its own with a better rib strike. In the end, as long as both can survive, demon is better because faster kills = more runs = more money.

Now for PvP, let's assume that sage and demon both go interval because if sage isn't interval as well then there's no way any amount of skill spamming will allow it to come close to the dps of a demon sin. So sage has 4aps and demon has 5.

Let's then look at the skills that are better for sage:

Raving slash - 10% more damage per hit for the next 5 seconds. At 4 hits a second that's 200% more damage total. Except in the 1.6 seconds it took to cast this skill, demon would have gotten 8 attacks in equaling 800% more damage.

Slipstream strike - 20% attack speed for 3 seconds. Let's assume it procs and puts sage at 5aps for the next 3 seconds. Then what? It has equivalent dps to demon maybe some more due to dagger devotion but again, in the 2 seconds it takes to cast this, demon has gotten 10 attacks in.

Tackling slash - Sage is better.

Rising Dragon Strike - Sage is better but not by much. 30 chi isn't much. Something demon can easily make up for with its extra attack.

Power Dash - Sage is better.

The AoEs are better for sage but I really dont see sins as a class that's made to go into a group of people and AoE them. You might do some good damage but you're dead as soon as you come out of stealth anyway. Leave the mass damage AoEs to the mages. Sins should be picking off the robes and archers at the back quickly and going back into stealth before anyone can respond. Demon's better shadow teleport, headhunt and throatcut allows sins to do this more effectively.

Looking at the passives/buffs, sage has better dagger devotion, bloodpaint, shadow escape and deaden nerves while demon has better wolf emblem and maze steps. Again, dagger devotion is not as good as that 1 extra aps in terms of damage.

tl;dr Sage looks like it has better skills on paper but most aren't gonna be used anyway. When it comes down to it, sage has tackling slash, power dash, earthen rift and subsea strike versus demon's shadow teleport, headhunt, throatcut and rib strike. With the demon skills more oriented towards PvP.

Buff-wise, it's sage shadow escape, deaden nerves and bloodpaint versus demon wolf emblem and maze steps as well as demon spark.

Everything else is either not useful or equally good/bad on either cultivation.

CarricaSin - Heavens Tear

Astrohawke - Lost City wrote: »

demon is better because faster kills = more runs = more money.

Dont you still have to have money for being demon for the -int gears? still not sure what ill choose when the time comes. Demon sounds like it will cost a ton for the gears.

Trawne - Lost City

CarricaSin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Dont you still have to have money for being demon for the -int gears? still not sure what ill choose when the time comes. Demon sounds like it will cost a ton for the gears.

sage cost a ton for gear too. anything you do costs a lot in this game if you chose to make it cost a lot. even with just the 90 wrists for -int demon will out dps sage so on HH runs or BH runs or w/e you do you will kill the bosses faster.

_Leif - Lost City

I'll update today I swear b:surrender.

There's definitely a range of expensive for demon/sage assassins. Cheapest would be sage skill spamming assassin, followed by moderate interval demon assassin, then high interval sage assassin with relentless courage genie, and finally demon assassin with max interval.

I really see these as the only 4 viable builds for an endgame assassin. Note that the dps goes up with cost. Also high interval sage assassin can out dps comparably equipped interval demon assassins. High interval referring to anywhere from -.2 to -.4 interval. This is mainly because of the damage boost from dagger devotion and the use of relentless courage on a genie (which can give a greater attack speed increase than demon spark). At max interval tho, demon wins. A max interval demon sin can have 4 attacks per second sparked with demon chill of the deep up.

A_Noob managed to hit 5 aps with 50 attack level, though I'm not sure how he did that lol

Taxi - Lost City

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

A_Noob managed to hit 5 aps with 50 attack level, though I'm not sure how he did that lol

Photoshop b:puzzled

CarricaSin - Heavens Tear

so either way, im gonna need some money. which way are you guys going? Demon or sage? i honestly cant decide. Sage BP looks amazing, but theres a few demon skills i like. its a toss up. by the time i reach the point i need to decide, almost everyone will know whats better ^.^ lol.

Trawne - Lost City

Taxi - Lost City wrote: »

Photoshop b:puzzled

na. he used tt100 fists

Eteocles - Heavens Tear

The way I see it is if u go demon and you pvp skills like maze steps won't matter as if you are a full interval sin (5aps) you will only need 10 secs to kill your opponent.

Can some one tell me what demon/sage head hunt is like pls

_Leif - Lost City

Updated 99 skills and started sage/demon spark explanation

Sage headhunt is a 50% chance to use only 1 spark.

Neddih - Harshlands

did they fix it where we can get 92 skills at 92? or is it still 99. if it is 99 now for 92 skills can you specify that.

_Leif - Lost City

I did. Check under the "Level 92 skills"

Neddih - Harshlands

oops missed thatb:surrender great job on the post though. everything seems pretty accurate

Posseiden - Sanctuary

b:surrender *bump* couldnt find this. why isnt this sticky at least for a few months