Phys. Def or Hp shard? Sage skill questions

Hikari - Heavens Tear

Okay I want to know what would probably be more useful, Phys. Defense shards or Ones for Hp?

Also, Sage's wellspring quaff says it grants a permanent 100% bonus to magic attack - is that true and is it any good?

_Vivio_ - Sanctuary

Hikari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay I want to know what would probably be more useful, Phys. Defense shards or Ones for Hp?

Also, Sage's wellspring quaff says it grants a permanent 100% bonus to magic attack - is that true and is it any good?

Sage wellspring quaff is not permanent its 15 seconds. Personally, I would not prefer you to learn that skill as a priority since, why spend 1 spark for that in tw or pk in the heat of the moment?

As for pdef shards or hp it all depends on how you do your gear, willing to spend time or cash, how far up the ladder you want to be in the top 3-4 tw guilds, or just PVE. Use pwcalc to help you decide how you'll eventually chose your sets of gear going up. It's not 100% accurate but its pretty reliable only thing I'd say is glaringly wrong is the event boots, helm, lack of diamond of tiger and dragon, the rest is pretty accurate. Link is below.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/

/Groovy/ - Harshlands

Sage Wellspring Quaff grants that bonus for 15 seconds after casting the skill. It increases the damage a bit but nothing epic (I probably won't bother trying to get this skill).

About sharding - it's all personal preference.
I plan to shard my end-game gear this way: robe and pants with pdef shards, everything else with HP shards.

Adroit - Lost City

Like the above said, sage wellspring is only 15 seconds on extra matk (basically useless) and sharding depends on your gear. However, I generally try to go for equal hp and pdef.. so with all my gear on (without sockets) and just self buffed.. I had lets say 5k hp and 6k pdef, I'd probably put hp shards in. With stone barrier, high pdef is really easy to come by end game.. so most good geared mages use all citrines (or if they can afford it, atk/def level shards)

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

equal hp and pdef.. so with all my gear on (without sockets) and just self buffed..

thats your go

no matter how ^^

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Like the above said, sage wellspring is only 15 seconds on extra matk (basically useless)

"basically useless"?

It doubles your magic attack. With 300 mag that's the same as double spark bonus (400% weapon damage). But it costs only 1 spark and is instant and lasts 3 more seconds. How is this "useless"? If anything it's a very good skill to increase your DPS.

I have a question though. Does it stack with Manifest Virtue? Does it stack with triple spark also?

For the lulz, if it does stack, imagine this on a mob (or LA char or whatever with similar magic and physical defenses):

Manifest Virtue let's say giving 150% magic atk increase for the sake of the argument. Starting with 399 chi. Let's suppose you also have 500 mag stat, that's 600% weapon damage for base magic atk.

Triple Spark->Cloud Eruption (genie skill, let's say it gives 152 chi)->Manifest Virtue->Sage Wellspring Quaff->God's Tea (150 chi)->Blade Tempest

The weapon damage % from blade tempest would be (double base magic atk btw, that's why I chose it):

600% + 700% (triple spark) + 900% (manifest virtue) + 600% (wellspring quaff) = 2800% weapon damage for base magic atk

2800% * 2 = 5600%

BT also has 400% weapon damage (total) so that would be...

6000% weapon damage b:cute

of course one could dream, I doubt they stack and the scenario is far from feasible unless just for the lulz :P

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

"basically useless"?

It doubles your magic attack. With 300 mag that's the same as double spark bonus (400% weapon damage). But it costs only 1 spark and is instant and lasts 3 more seconds. How is this "useless"? If anything it's a very good skill to increase your DPS.

I have a question though. Does it stack with Manifest Virtue? Does it stack with triple spark also?

For the lulz, if it does stack, imagine this on a mob (or LA char or whatever with similar magic and physical defenses):

Manifest Virtue let's say giving 150% magic atk increase for the sake of the argument. Starting with 399 chi. Let's suppose you also have 500 mag stat, that's 600% weapon damage for base magic atk.

Triple Spark->Cloud Eruption (genie skill, let's say it gives 152 chi)->Manifest Virtue->Sage Wellspring Quaff->God's Tea (150 chi)->Blade Tempest

The weapon damage % from blade tempest would be (double base magic atk btw, that's why I chose it):

600% + 700% (triple spark) + 900% (manifest virtue) + 600% (wellspring quaff) = 2800% weapon damage for base magic atk

2800% * 2 = 5600%

BT also has 400% weapon damage (total) so that would be...

6000% weapon damage b:cute

of course one could dream, I doubt they stack and the scenario is far from feasible unless just for the lulz :P

u ever used?

its give 100% EQ dmg (ring+weapon) to ur base mattack. a bit more than a cleric mattack buff but if u noticed the cleric mattack buff too not really something uber big.

THIS buff dont stack with fury mattack buff. when u have 400 int and use it then its only +100% eq dmg so similiar than +100mag till 1st spark burst similair than +150mag point.

basically maybe a bit more visible if u got pretty low mag point (weapon requiment) but when u use spark burst then will be overwited.

before i learned i thinked this, i learned only because i want learn all skill (i learned sage emberstorm too indifferent never use) XD

so skill bonus really **** :P

(oh and things dont work this way than u calculated XD)

Ursa - Dreamweaver

aw man you're wrong....

I have it, and the magic attk increase is equivalent to a single spark.
Basically it adds 100% of weapon dmg to your attack.
The description is ****.
Doesn't stack with Spark, in fact it cancels/overwrites the mag attk bonus from tripple spark - so it's just bad, bad and bad. I learn it for lolz only, got the book for free.


Now on the HP/Pdef sharding thing:

Shard for balance between HP and Pdef. BUT, always shard the TT90 pants with highest HP shards you can afford. Those pants are absolutely insane and nothing that comes after can match them in adds (HP + pdef).

Adroit - Lost City

Borsuc you're an idiot as usual, I guess I don't need to explain anything because Shadowvzs and Ursa have already explained it. Anyway, plz continue making a fool of yourself.. you are the most entertaining moron on the wizard forums.

Hikari - Heavens Tear

Thanks so much guys, the information really helped me out!

Xegeth - Dreamweaver

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I learn it for lolz only, got the book for free.

Well, more like almost free. b:chuckle Some poor unlucky guy who got it freakin' four times in a row from mysterious pages sold it to you... >_<

Ursa - Dreamweaver

yeah, that too lol

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

u ever used?

Nope and thanks for telling me the description is wrong.

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

its give 100% EQ dmg (ring+weapon) to ur base mattack. a bit more than a cleric mattack buff but if u noticed the cleric mattack buff too not really something uber big.

THIS buff dont stack with fury mattack buff. when u have 400 int and use it then its only +100% eq dmg so similiar than +100mag till 1st spark burst similair than +150mag point.

basically maybe a bit more visible if u got pretty low mag point (weapon requiment) but when u use spark burst then will be overwited.

before i learned i thinked this, i learned only because i want learn all skill (i learned sage emberstorm too indifferent never use) XD

so skill bonus really **** :P

(oh and things dont work this way than u calculated XD)

In that case I agree it's **** but even the description, not just the sage bonus, says in english it doubles your magic attack. If it does add only 100% weapon damage then it's a bug. No question about it.

Ursa - Dreamweaver

no bug , just wrong description.
would have been awesome to double magic attk for 15 seconds. 26k mag attk FTW...lol, almost better than 3 spark.
30 seconds of 26k magic attk would be realy overpowered....

Borsuc - Raging Tide

Well isn't Manifest Virtue even better then? Or is that wrong too?

It is 30 seconds btw I thought it was 15?

EDIT: If Manifest Virtue adds weapon damage as well then that's a **** lvl100 skill, I wonder why people bother to learn it over Elemental Invocation?

Adroit - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Well isn't Manifest Virtue even better then? Or is that wrong too?

It is 30 seconds btw I thought it was 15?

EDIT: If Manifest Virtue adds weapon damage as well then that's a **** lvl100 skill, I wonder why people bother to learn it over Elemental Invocation?

ya its equally bad, no idea why people learn it

PenutButer - Dreamweaver

Don't make fun of Borsuc, he's my hero b:angry.

I wonder what would happen if you sharded everything with mp shards :O

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

Nope and thanks for telling me the description is wrong.

In that case I agree it's **** but even the description, not just the sage bonus, says in english it doubles your magic attack. If it does add only 100% weapon damage then it's a bug. No question about it.

maybe try check the other version descriptions in ecatomb.net
where u get worse advatage that the true b:chuckle

Increase 100% of magic attacks within 15 seconds, base on the Magic instrument attack damage

Borsuc - Raging Tide

LOL I see your point that sounds like bad english in a way. Though I was expecting this one to be professionally translated. XD

HexOmega - Dreamweaver

translators are humans after all.. sometimes




edit.. i have only 16k mana with my mana-shard gear

Zuunu - Heavens Tear

Hikari - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sage's wellspring quaff says it grants a permanent 100% bonus to magic attack - is that true and is it any good?

It's literally just like using Spark Eruption, the first one.

Zemalis - Lost City

Pdef shards reduce damage for melee hits,hp shards not.Basicaly,hp shards put the melee classes cause have already good physical defence & need to have big hp tank for magic hits.Pdef shards put the casters cause dont have pdef at all & need to handle melee hits.Your choise......

Adroit - Lost City

Zemalis - Lost City wrote: »

Pdef shards reduce damage for melee hits,hp shards not.Basicaly,hp shards put the melee classes cause have already good physical defence & need to have big hp tank for magic hits.Pdef shards put the casters cause dont have pdef at all & need to handle melee hits.Your choise......

or you get plenty of pdef from gear as a caster, so you can put in hp shards to help against both physical and magic damage.

Zemalis - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

or you get plenty of pdef from gear as a caster, so you can put in hp shards to help against both physical and magic damage.

True but pdef is working better with stone barrier of wizards than hp shards.So its better to have + 2K pdef more than 1K hp & 1K pdef more.The stone barrier have an 100% ( or 150% at demon) bonus at pdef . The hp shars cant help so much at wizards as the pdef shards.If i add 2K hp,it will be always 2K hp.If i add 2K pdef the stone barrier will raise it up .As many pdef i add,the better output i ll have for pdef.

Thalos - Dreamweaver

At some point it's pretty much useless to get more pdef as you'd need several thousand def to decrease the damage you take by 1%. So if you already got good pdef it's much better to shard hp.

Adroit - Lost City

Thalos - Dreamweaver wrote: »

At some point it's pretty much useless to get more pdef as you'd need several thousand def to decrease the damage you take by 1%. So if you already got good pdef it's much better to shard hp.

basically this, pdef has diminishing returns

Zemalis - Lost City

Thalos - Dreamweaver wrote: »

At some point it's pretty much useless to get more pdef as you'd need several thousand def to decrease the damage you take by 1%. So if you already got good pdef it's much better to shard hp.

Useless the pdef for a robe class?only 1% reduce?If i have the wrong shield on me i get the double damage...i have 1k est. unbuffed,2K est. with stone barrier & i wish to had 5K.that means 5 times less damage (yes,& dont argue,its 5 times less damage if i have 5 times better pdef,thats how works).If i need 4 hits to die from a melee class( i put it as example that),without stone barrier i need 2.No other shard can work so perfect with the wizard's stone barrier cause it doubles the efficiency.The pdef for arcane units is NEVER enough..........

Tip: all we had the quest with theese lv 100 mobs with only 100 hp.....remember how hard was to kill them?
Remember KunLun???the white deer??check its pdef plz ,& its hp & then told me again that hp shards are better than pdef...............
http://www.pwdatabase.com/ms/mob/11153
What its say??????....umm....100K pdef but only 100 hp.............LOL
As i say ,hp shards DONT give defence & DONT reduce damage,pdef shards give you defence & with stone barrier the results are way way better than some "static" hp shards.Even & without the stone barrier the pdef shards reduce the damage......

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Zemalis - Lost City wrote: »

Useless the pdef for a robe class?only 1% reduce?If i have the wrong shield on me i get the double damage...i have 1k est. unbuffed,2K est. with stone barrier & i wish to had 5K.that means 5 times less damage (yes,& dont argue,its 5 times less damage if i have 5 times better pdef,thats how works).If i need 4 hits to die from a melee class( i put it as example that),without stone barrier i need 2.No other shard can work so perfect with the wizard's stone barrier cause it doubles the efficiency.The pdef for arcane units is NEVER enough..........

Tip: all we had the quest with theese lv 100 mobs with only 100 hp.....remember how hard was to kill them?
Remember KunLun???the white deer??check its pdef plz ,& its hp & then told me again that hp shards are better than pdef...............
http://www.pwdatabase.com/ms/mob/11153
What its say??????....umm....100K pdef but only 100 hp.............LOL
As i say ,hp shards DONT give defence & DONT reduce damage,pdef shards give you defence & with stone barrier the results are way way better than some "static" hp shards.Even & without the stone barrier the pdef shards reduce the damage......

Because you are low level. At the end you will have plenty p.def from refine ornaments. And there is border, from some points more p.def doesn't have sense and HP shards are better. I think break point it's around 9K p.def.

Myriad_ - Lost City

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Because you are low level. At the end you will have plenty p.def from refine ornaments. And there is border, from some points more p.def doesn't have sense and HP shards are better. I think break point it's around 9K p.def.

Good luck getting 9k pdef self buffed you need at least +10 event orn, demon stone barrier, pdef event cape, lunar mag rings...

Watter - Lost City

*raises hand*
i have a question... i'm 72 atm and all my armor (i mean, body vestement, pants, boots and wristguards) are up to my lvl and ***... i'm thinkin bout sharding it with phys. def. or HP shards, but i'm not sure if i should shard it all by now or wait till 80 and shard my HH80 armor or wait until 90 and shard it...
so...
1> if i shard my *** gears (don't manufacture HH armor until 90), what lvl shards should i buy? (HP and P. Def.)
2> should i bother getting my HH80 armor? is it worth it? if so, what lvl shards should i put on it?
3> i'm getting my HH90 armor, ofc, so... is it better sharding it with P.Def. or HP? considering that i'll have 33 vit points by there, probably...



oh, btw, here's my char, with all equips and stats...
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=86d53d8fe20f6afa
i know it's VERY noob... but i can't spend rl money (i would if i could), cause i live in brazil :P i know there's much to change, but what should i start with? :P

Ty - Heavens Tear

Zemalis - Lost City wrote: »

Useless the pdef for a robe class?only 1% reduce?If i have the wrong shield on me i get the double damage...i have 1k est. unbuffed,2K est. with stone barrier & i wish to had 5K.that means 5 times less damage (yes,& dont argue,its 5 times less damage if i have 5 times better pdef,thats how works).If i need 4 hits to die from a melee class( i put it as example that),without stone barrier i need 2.No other shard can work so perfect with the wizard's stone barrier cause it doubles the efficiency.The pdef for arcane units is NEVER enough..........

Tip: all we had the quest with theese lv 100 mobs with only 100 hp.....remember how hard was to kill them?
Remember KunLun???the white deer??check its pdef plz ,& its hp & then told me again that hp shards are better than pdef...............
http://www.pwdatabase.com/ms/mob/11153
What its say??????....umm....100K pdef but only 100 hp.............LOL
As i say ,hp shards DONT give defence & DONT reduce damage,pdef shards give you defence & with stone barrier the results are way way better than some "static" hp shards.Even & without the stone barrier the pdef shards reduce the damage......

You trollin'? I don't even...

Damage reduction has diminishing returns, the higher your physical or magical defenses go the harder it is to get 1 more % damage reduction. Sure you may see huge differences in damage reduction from buffs when your base physical defense gives you a reduction below 50%, but once you start hitting a 75% damage reduction fully buffed it's harder and harder to eek out another percentile.
See this Graph. It's from another game so the armor values are a little different but replace the 35000 on the x axis with 15,000 and you're about on track.

So when people say that you shouldn't add more pdef after a certain point they mean that the benefits from adding another 500-1000 pdef may only reduce the damage you take from a melee attacker by 1%, whereas adding another 150-300 HP (adjusted for phys buffs) may give you another 2.5-4% HP, depending of course on your HP pool. Furthermore adding HP increases your survivability vs magic attacks as well.

EDIT: And your KunKun example is a classic example of where more HP is better than immense defense. 100,000 pdef is a 96% damage reduction. With 100 HP all it takes is a little over 2,500 raw damage to 1 shot him, pretty easy stuff.