Barbarian Level 75? or Hercules Level 75?

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear

i dont think this is something that is really to be calculated- its a matter of what you would have more fun playing, with the least stress. and frankly, all classes have their own sorts of stress. with a barb you start off with someone who you can play right out of the box, and eventually be able to tank so much on your own, be respected (or SHOULD be)...and be so cool looking when in trueform.


whereas if you go for a veno who you decide just has to have a herc, you are delaying really getting on with the game. plus, you are rather mistaken, about air and water pets. turtles are really the only water pet until you get to lv80, so it makes good sense to grab one, and keep leveling it (and getting better exp/sp than you would on land.) when you reach 80, you can use the plumpfish, though there arent too many quests that need water pets. a lot of the time, i pull the mob to the surface, and use my pig on it. same goes for air pets, though some swear by the sawfly, others the pig, as the best catchable air pets. foxwings arent that great....i've used them, and they are kind of weak.

so, if you want to get into the game right now, go barb. if you want to spend $200-500 for a herc, fine. everyone has their own tastes, and play according to their budgets-ingame and IRL.

ChocoMonster - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm at a crossroads here, I've been comparing a level 75 hercules (found here) with a level 75 Barbarian with normal equips (using this calculator) and to be honest, there isn't much of a difference between the two (besides the herc winning in accuracy and magic defense.)

So what would you choose? A barbarian? Or a herc? I'm more of a solo type, so a herc appeals to me more as I can heal it instantly rather than having to buy HP Guardian Charms.

(Edit: this is of course if you follow the 3 STR, 1 VIT, 1 DEX until level 62, then do 3 STR, 2 VIT after that.)

I also know that a hercules can't fly or swim, which is why I've been contemplating on pet tanks for those areas (at uber high levels, there's a certain fish that performs better than turtles. Foxwings are good in the air for more defense.)

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »

Hercs don't need charms, +1 to the herc

Disagree on this one. The base state of both herc and barb is that neither has a charm. The fact that a barb can use a charm while a herc can't is +1 for the barb.

Hercs don't need armour/mats or pots, +1 to the herc
Hercs don't need to repair, +1 to the herc

Agreed, though I hardly think the advantage is enough to warrant a full +1. Maybe +0.05 for not needing to buy armor, and +0.01 not needing repairs.

Hercs don't suffer damage reduction on HH bosses. +over 9000 to the herc

At high level I'd say this is a non-issue. The herc only has 2.7k patk @ 0.8 atk/sec at level 90, for a base DPS of 2138. A good melee build should be able to hit 4000+ DPS at level 90. Heck, my heavy fox veno was at 3500+ DPS at level 85 with a level 70 weapon. Augment that with sparks and skills and it's relatively easy for a player class to outdamage a herc on level [?] bosses once you get to the mid-90s to 100+.

The factor which makes the difference is damage reflect. And since every herc comes with a veno who can cast damage reflect on a player, it seems to me that having it on the herc merely brings the herc up to the level of a player tank, not surpasses it.

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver

Airyll - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The factor which makes the difference is damage reflect. And since every herc comes with a veno who can cast damage reflect on a player, it seems to me that having it on the herc merely brings the herc up to the level of a player tank, not surpasses it.

That's why I didn't decide to push one over the other, I said they were pretty equal, and only asked what people think I should choose. However, as I said, I'm better off as a herc player.

Nakhimov - Lost City

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Disagree on this one. The base state of both herc and barb is that neither has a charm. The fact that a barb can use a charm while a herc can't is +1 for the barb.

You can't deny that a werebeast is much more effective charmed. I suppose that can go either way.

Agreed, though I hardly think the advantage is enough to warrant a full +1. Maybe +0.05 for not needing to buy armor, and +0.01 not needing repairs.

Repairs are very, very expensive. Armour is very, very expensive.

At high level I'd say this is a non-issue. The herc only has 2.7k patk @ 0.8 atk/sec at level 90, for a base DPS of 2138. A good melee build should be able to hit 4000+ DPS at level 90. Heck, my heavy fox veno was at 3500+ DPS at level 85 with a level 70 weapon. Augment that with sparks and skills and it's relatively easy for a player class to outdamage a herc on level [?] bosses once you get to the mid-90s to 100+.

The factor which makes the difference is damage reflect. And since every herc comes with a veno who can cast damage reflect on a player, it seems to me that having it on the herc merely brings the herc up to the level of a player tank, not surpasses it.

Your ~4k dps is reduced significantly on HH bosses whereas the DPS on the herc is not.
The herc will have about 200dps on you at any given time provided your numbers are correct.

Jennalicious - Sanctuary

Um, Herc > fail Barb.

Hercs may cost a lot to get, but in the long run they are cheaper than all the repair bills the Barb will go through.

Solo play - go Herc
Squad play - go Barb

I chose Veno and got a Herc because there were a lot of times where I needed a squad for stuff and couldn't find one for days. Bottom line: Venos with a Herc can solo more of the game than any other class.

Waterfal - Sanctuary

barb is way more superior then a herc.
They can keep agro a lot better. If you let a herc tank a bh boss. veno is DD'ing (maybe) barb is DD'ing and cleric. while archers, pshy's, sins and wizzies are just sitting around.

and you gave the the barb normal equips you said. The thing is, a herc is "worth" about 200 dollar.
Why make a comparison, of a herc (200dollar) vs a barb with 'normal' equips? Imo if you want a good comparison, you should spend the same on the barb as on the herc.
Believe me, there will be a huge difference.

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

barb is way more superior then a herc.
They can keep agro a lot better. If you let a herc tank a bh boss. veno is DD'ing (maybe) barb is DD'ing and cleric. while archers, pshy's, sins and wizzies are just sitting around.

and you gave the the barb normal equips you said. The thing is, a herc is "worth" about 200 dollar.
Why make a comparison, of a herc (200dollar) vs a barb with 'normal' equips? Imo if you want a good comparison, you should spend the same on the barb as on the herc.
Believe me, there will be a huge difference.

Especially when I can't aggro properly in the first place, thanks but, I'm better off with the herc.

I can't heal properly within the amount of time needed to kill you, I can't kill quickly with DDs (I usually die before I can, even with a squad helping), I can't use magic lest I also die easily, etc. I don't have fast reflexes ( So I will never PVP, sorry.)

So the only option to play this game is get a herc, or go psychic.

But I like being the one taking damage instead of other people.

If you were to suggest what kind of stat build I should go with on a barb, please tell me. All I've seen is people shoot down what the pwpedia guides say. (That includes this guide, as it has the tanker build I used in calculating the stats using the PWI calculator.)

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver

I'll give barb another try, but I don't hold much faith in it.

I'm getting dealt 50+ damage on same level monsters as me, even in tiger form (not level 19 yet, and have already gotten my level 9 skills.) This takes out a pretty healthy chunk out of my HP with each hit on me.

And I have to keep allocating 3 STR, 1 DEX, 1 VIT until level 62 (according to that sticky guide in the barb forum) then I can allocate 3 STR and 2 VIT the rest of the way.

The STR requirements for the level "105" stuff will disallow me to give any more points to VIT, sadly.

Coraline - Lost City

I vote for barb. Yes you need an cleric, but usually barbs always have a cleric friend so that they can heal and they level up together. Hercs may be good at the lower levels but at the higher levels you still need a barb. In HH 3-3, hercs cannot tank except for a few bosses since the bosses sleep and have stuns and aoes that cant be purified by a veno. I would much prefer a barb. Everyone needs one (just look at world chat) almost all of the BH's are looking for a barb or EP.

Much easier to get stuff done with a barb, thus you level faster.


For the soloing..herc is good since you can aoe grind..can even aoe grind with a golem but anyway. If you want to aoe grind with a barb, all you might need is an EP, maybe with Tree of Protection and event hp pots, might not even need an ep.

Anyway, I personally would go for barb, since at the higher levels they are needed more often and its I'm not a fan of spam healing, I hate tanking on a herc...lol

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »

Repairs are very, very expensive. Armour is very, very expensive.

If you think repairs and armor are "very, very expensive", you can't afford a herc so the point is moot. If you played the game every day and your repair bill was 60k every day, it would take you ~3 years of repairs to match the cost of a herc. I was actually being generous calling it +0.01.

Armor cost can be more substantial, but it's usually fully recovered when you level and sell your old armor. The only real loss is the opportunity cost while your money is locked up in the form of armor. That's why I called it +0.05. It's only at endgame where armor costs become comparable to a herc's cost - TT99, lunar, and nirvana. But by that point the barb is so much superior to a herc that again the point is moot.

Your ~4k dps is reduced significantly on HH bosses whereas the DPS on the herc is not.
The herc will have about 200dps on you at any given time provided your numbers are correct.

I'm home now so I can pull the stats off my level 95 veno.

Level 95 herc patk is 2935 @ 0.8 atk/sec. Bash is double that, or 5870, with a 1.5 sec cast time and 8 sec cooldown. Overall DPS is ((8*2935*.8) + 5870)/9.5 = 2595 DPS.

My veno's patk is an average 4535 @ 1.54 atk/sec, or 6976 DPS. Triple sparked is 14592 DPS. She can triple spark every 43 sec, for an overall DPS of ((15*14592)+(28*6976))/46 = 9005 DPS. I can triple spark more frequently with genie skills but I think you begin to see my point.

In other words, at level 95 she's doing 87% of the damage of her herc against [?] bosses. And that's for a heavy fox veno with an unsharded weapon (haven't decided yet what shards to put on it) in a tanking config. If I put her in max DPS config, she's at 10266 DPS, or 99% of the herc's DPS against [?] bosses.

Figure a well-outfitted barb and especially BM or assassin will crush my veno's DPS, and they should easily do more damage than the herc on [?] bosses by level 95.

PlumDumb - Heavens Tear

is this topic about a fail barb??I can grind all day on my barb with no charm...do bosses with no charm..its skill BRO.The only place i want my charm to tick is at my job site TT if i see it tick out on the map i shake my head ...so be like me use pots to support your charm and oh..up your freakin skills and get better armor and shard it or something for christsakes.

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver

PlumDumb - Heavens Tear wrote: »

is this topic about a fail barb??I can grind all day on my barb with no charm...do bosses with no charm..its skill BRO.The only place i want my charm to tick is at my job site TT if i see it tick out on the map i shake my head ...so be like me use pots to support your charm and oh..up your freakin skills and get better armor and shard it or something for christsakes.

Does sharding require a manufacturing skill? If so, then I can't do it; I'm not really into manufacturing in this game.

Waterfal - Sanctuary

I don't think it requires a manufacturing skill. Or at least not higher then lvl 1 skill.

Coraline - Lost City

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

I don't think it requires a manufacturing skill. Or at least not higher then lvl 1 skill.

No it doesnt, you can do it any level just cost coins to put in a gem

Gravediggr - Dreamweaver

why is this even an argument.? Barb wins hands down when it comes to tanking, it's just silly to think otherwise..sure herc is gr8 for solo but will never take the place of a barb.

__Nanayo__ - Dreamweaver

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'll give barb another try, but I don't hold much faith in it.

I'm getting dealt 50+ damage on same level monsters as me, even in tiger form (not level 19 yet, and have already gotten my level 9 skills.) This takes out a pretty healthy chunk out of my HP with each hit on me.

And I have to keep allocating 3 STR, 1 DEX, 1 VIT until level 62 (according to that sticky guide in the barb forum) then I can allocate 3 STR and 2 VIT the rest of the way.

The STR requirements for the level "105" stuff will disallow me to give any more points to VIT, sadly.

Lower levels tend to be tough for most classes anyways. You're not going to see things start to get easier until maybe level 29/30, once culti unlocks better skills and you start seeing better gear up for grabs (with Legendary axes and chest piece being most noteworthy).

kknboy

you can't iron heart a herc. xD

Kokki - Harshlands

I have both herc venop level 90 and barb level 90

Yes at 95 with decent refined weapon and gear you might be able to out DPS a herc in TT, but now by a wide margin. Only interval fist BM's and interval lunar weapon archers really have the DPS to get aggro from herc.

I like my veno because i can hop into TT and make some coin. Always in need in an FC ( even more then barb, ran many 2 BM squads ) to tank bosses. My barb pretty much is getting replaced by Fist BM's and hercs.

Only thing my barb is good for atm is running cube for my wiz 99 skills.

All the squads screaming for a barb in world chat because they don't know how to use squad dynamics and skills of all classes to get the job done. or are not willing to learn aynthing new.

so in the case of solo play and not relying on someone else you made the right choice. Barbs are overrated and underapreciated, so in the end you are always screwed :P

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Plus side for a herc? They don't suffer level based damage reduction - so yes, they really hurt those [?] bosses.

Plus side for a barb? PURIFY. And a heck of a lot more hitpoints, usually.

Fiery_Demon - Heavens Tear

I think they both are good, so my advice to everyone asking this question is : if you're a girl, make a veno, if you're a guy, make a barb Although I myself prefer Hercs to barbs, not just because I'm a girl, but because you can solo almost anything and don't need the best armor unless you're gonna PK. But of course, getting a Herc is pricy.

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

barb is way more superior then a herc.
They can keep agro a lot better. If you let a herc tank a bh boss. veno is DD'ing (maybe) barb is DD'ing and cleric. while archers, pshy's, sins and wizzies are just sitting around.

Nope. I steal aggro from Hercs 5 and 7 levels higher without trying...in humanoid form. Inside bhs even. I don't even have high refines...my weapons is a +5, the rest of my gears are +3 or +4.

So don't tell me that a herc will hold aggro above a good Barb...it won't happen, it just won't.

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver

XylolyX - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Nope. I steal aggro from Hercs 5 and 7 levels higher without trying...in humanoid form. Inside bhs even. I don't even have high refines...my weapons is a +5, the rest of my gears are +3 or +4.

So don't tell me that a herc will hold aggro above a good Barb...it won't happen, it just won't.

A herc can't hold aggro against anything higher or even a bit lower level than itself. This is because the herc (as well as all other pets) have lower damage output than actual players.

Tatuaje - Lost City

A Herc is garanteed better and for one reason only.

The Herc will not QQ if you fail and he dies. b:cute

KissAndKill - Dreamweaver

Tatuaje - Lost City wrote: »

A Herc is garanteed better and for one reason only.

The Herc will not QQ if you fail and he dies. b:cute

+9001

/10chars

Waterfal - Sanctuary

XylolyX - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Nope. I steal aggro from Hercs 5 and 7 levels higher without trying...in humanoid form. Inside bhs even. I don't even have high refines...my weapons is a +5, the rest of my gears are +3 or +4.

So don't tell me that a herc will hold aggro above a good Barb...it won't happen, it just won't.

as I said.. barb is way more superiour then a herc, because barbs can keep agro better. you prolly misread my post b:surrender

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

Waterfal - Sanctuary wrote: »

as I said.. barb is way more superiour then a herc, because barbs can keep agro better. you prolly misread my post b:surrender

Whoops, I sure did. In that case, I agree with ya!

second line

__Nanayo__ - Dreamweaver

Tatuaje - Lost City wrote: »

A Herc is garanteed better and for one reason only.

The Herc will not QQ if you fail and he dies. b:cute

Herc's certainly complain. They're just easier to deal with because you can shove cookies down their throat after the fact. b:chuckle

RemyHadley - Dreamweaver

I like barbs more.