Demon Vs. Sage for Sin's

TheMuffinMan - Dreamweaver

I am getting closer and closer to having to choose between demon and sage. I was wondering which one is better for PVE and/or PVP, (i am more interested in PVP) but for discussion sake i will put both. Here is the link to the skills: http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php
After seeing both demon and sage skills, they seem to have there obvious advantages and disadvantages compared to eachother. Please discussb:thanks

Lovecraft - Lost City

Sage skills are superior to that of demon skills, hands-down. Demons get 3-4 decent skills whereas sages get much more. Only reason I can see to go demon, is the demon spark attack speed, which can easily be replaced with relentless courage. I'm not saying either path is bad, just that sage is better.

Strife_son - Sanctuary

Something that seems to be overlooked a lot is that demon spark becomes self spammable once the right amount of interval gear is obtained. Some players prioritize that over a genie skill with a cool down and a substantial energy cost.

I personally prefer to save my genie skills to keep myself alive.

Even still, I remain undecided on whether my sin should go sage or demon. Decisions, decisions.

anwynd

after i looked at the skills for sin on ecatombs being a sage sin goes with my style of playing so if i ever get my alt sin to tht phase it will be goin sageb:pleasedb:victory

Trawne - Lost City

Strife_son - Sanctuary wrote: »

Something that seems to be overlooked a lot is that demon spark becomes self spammable once the right amount of interval gear is obtained. Some players prioritize that over a genie skill with a cool down and a substantial energy cost.

I personally prefer to save my genie skills to keep myself alive.

Even still, I remain undecided on whether my sin should go sage or demon. Decisions, decisions.

true demon sin gets self spammable at a lower interval, but a sage sin can reach 4APS with daggers and become self spammable too.

and in the event you're at 3.33 or 2.88, you still have inner harmony to makeup when you fall behind in chi (+ a slew of other skills that take little time to use for chi)

Yarly - Harshlands

O.o Demon b:bye

Evict - Heavens Tear

Lovecraft - Lost City wrote: »

Sage skills are superior to that of demon skills, hands-down. Demons get 3-4 decent skills whereas sages get much more. Only reason I can see to go demon, is the demon spark attack speed, which can easily be replaced with relentless courage. I'm not saying either path is bad, just that sage is better.

^ Thisthisthisthis.

Kuroi_Sin - Dreamweaver

I see them both as massive killing machines. But it depends on style alone. They will both be deadly against anyone they meet. Demon for -int sins. Sage for skill spammers. Demon for rich sins. Sage for poor sins. Though I do think that Demons will be better suited for taking out the HA. Condensed Thorn's bonus would work a lot better with a Demon since the Water damage is only added to normal attacks.

Then again... Get a Sage Sin with 4 APS... Maybe throw in a full Diamond of Tiger socket setup... NOTHING WILL SURVIVE!!

Plicid - Heavens Tear

My goal is to make a tanking sin that needs no cleric. I wish The Sage/Demon Ribstrike were switched. The 65% reduced speed would help alot more than the 10% Hp reduction. Honestly 10% doesn't change much Decide does the same thing, My Veno does 20% even a lvl 90 Archer does better. Only reason I see for the 10% is maybe for high HP Barbs, but I believe the double mana cost isn't worth the 10% HP debuff. so If I do go Sage I don't think I will learn Sage Rib strike.

Sage gets 25% Dmg reduction and 50% extra hp from Blood paint, but can only get to 4 attacks/second without Genie skills/Pots. Demon reduces attack speed extra 15% and can get extra 20% HP from bloodpaint via extra attack per second.

So on a pure physical boss(in theory) Sage takes 10% less damage (25% from spark but 15% less reduction from rib strike) And Sage gains 30% more HP if both have max interval gear(Sage advantage is even less if both at 3.33 attack rate.) But where Demons have the severe advantage is Attack Rate and therefore dmg. Bosses will take 20% less time(approx) as a Demon. I know Sages have Higher dagger mastery but the mastery is not mutiplied for spark. The 2% crit on Demon mastery will even out the damage in spark I believe. Since Crit damage is mutiplied via spark.

I also plan on PvP/TW so which do you think would fit my purposes better?

Trawne - Lost City

Plicid - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My goal is to make a tanking sin that needs no cleric. I wish The Sage/Demon Ribstrike were switched. The 65% reduced speed would help alot more than the 10% Hp reduction. Honestly 10% doesn't change much Decide does the same thing, My Veno does 20% even a lvl 90 Archer does better. Only reason I see for the 10% is maybe for high HP Barbs, but I believe the double mana cost isn't worth the 10% HP debuff. so If I do go Sage I don't think I will learn Sage Rib strike.

Sage gets 25% Dmg reduction and 50% extra hp from Blood paint, but can only get to 4 attacks/second without Genie skills/Pots. Demon reduces attack speed extra 15% and can get extra 20% HP from bloodpaint via extra attack per second.

So on a pure physical boss(in theory) Sage takes 10% less damage (25% from spark but 15% less reduction from rib strike) And Sage gains 30% more HP if both have max interval gear(Sage advantage is even less if both at 3.33 attack rate.) But where Demons have the severe advantage is Attack Rate and therefore dmg. Bosses will take 20% less time(approx) as a Demon. I know Sages have Higher dagger mastery but the mastery is not mutiplied for spark. The 2% crit on Demon mastery will even out the damage in spark I believe. Since Crit damage is mutiplied via spark.

I also plan on PvP/TW so which do you think would fit my purposes better?

Math dont work like that. Agree though i'd rather have the 65% rib strike as sage for bosses.

Assuming Demon 5 APS and Sage 4 APS, both dealing 5k per hit (bit high for 150 bosses but this is for percentages) and boss does 1500 damage per hit every 3 seconds (before rib strike)

Demons wont kill 20% faster however since 10% of the bosses HP is taken right away. it ends up being ~12% faster.

Demon sins would gain 500 HPS
Sage sins gain 600 HPS
Sage sins will gain about 17% more HP/sec

Demon sins will take an average of 175 DPS with rib strike up
Sage sins will take 187.5 DPS with rib strike up
So Sage sins take ~7% more damage over time but 20% less damage per hit.

When taking Health gained over time adding the damage taken, Sage sins still gain about 11% HP over demons per second

In the end, demon sins kill the boss faster, sage sins will still tank the boss more easily.

Lingzi - Lost City

n u r still a BR

NightReaper - Lost City

in my opinion,

for Demon:

headhunt, shadow teleport, rib strike, focused mind, knife throw, maze steps, inner harmony, subsea strike and SPARK ERUPTIONb:dirty.

for Sage:

slipstream strike, raving slash, deep sting, earthen rift, power dash, bloodpaint, shadow scape, shadow walk, dagger devotion, rising dragon strike, tackling slash, puncture wound, deaden nerves and chill of the deep.


i think demon is better cause of the stuns and the spark eruptionb:shutupb:bye

Strife_son - Sanctuary

Lingzi - Lost City wrote: »

n u r still a BR

You have also heard of teh failness of BR's?

Lingzi - Lost City

b:dirty im gonna switch to sage sin b:dirty

awsometothemax

well yea im a sin and i really cant decide what to go... i only really pvp and sometimes tw but not concernd with questing/ bosses (i only level to pvp better) so what do u recommend? am a pure dex sin btw.

anwynd

i do believe this is a necro if im not mistaken

BigFIuffy - Archosaur

Trawne - Lost City wrote: »

Math dont work like that. Agree though i'd rather have the 65% rib strike as sage for bosses.

Assuming Demon 5 APS and Sage 4 APS, both dealing 5k per hit (bit high for 150 bosses but this is for percentages) and boss does 1500 damage per hit every 3 seconds (before rib strike)

Demons wont kill 20% faster however since 10% of the bosses HP is taken right away. it ends up being ~12% faster.

Demon sins would gain 500 HPS
Sage sins gain 600 HPS
Sage sins will gain about 17% more HP/sec

Demon sins will take an average of 175 DPS with rib strike up
Sage sins will take 187.5 DPS with rib strike up
So Sage sins take ~7% more damage over time but 20% less damage per hit.

When taking Health gained over time adding the damage taken, Sage sins still gain about 11% HP over demons per second

In the end, demon sins kill the boss faster, sage sins will still tank the boss more easily.

you completely forgot about sage mastery giving 15% more weapon damage

i know thats not 15% more damage but a sage sin will do more damage per hit then a demon sin

Tivas - Archosaur

Then again demon sin will have more critical % u should count that too..

SilentGodai - Lost City

Sage will powerdash 50% critical and it follows into auto atk lasts for 6 or 8 seconds. With permanent sage wolfemblem sage should do more dmg over all if they have same aps

NightReaper - Lost City

SilentGodai - Lost City wrote: »

if they have same aps

demon spark = self spamable and more aps b:victory

SilentGodai - Lost City

NightReaper - Lost City wrote: »

demon spark = self spamable and more aps b:victory

you may have premanent spark forever but i find that boring spark kill, feels like your skills are useless. If your sage we can do dps and use our amazing overpowered skills with 25% dmg reduction :O

NightReaper - Lost City

dont forget that demon sins have 5 seconds of stun jump and 6 seconds of headhunt + 100% of chanel cut chance on knife trow, + evasion and demon rib strike can make the "5aps BMs" atk only 2apsb:chuckle

Sallust - Dreamweaver

Sage Sin will never have 5 aps with CoD on ijs

_Leif - Lost City

Neither will demon sins. I believe the max for CoD was 4 aps (not taking into account the new rank 9 ****)

NightReaper - Lost City wrote: »

dont forget that demon sins have 5 seconds of stun jump and 6 seconds of headhunt + 100% of chanel cut chance on knife trow, + evasion and demon rib strike can make the "5aps BMs" atk only 2apsb:chuckle

Rib strike is purified with triple spark, and a 2 aps bm will still wreck you.

SilentGodai - Lost City wrote: »

you may have premanent spark forever but i find that boring spark kill, feels like your skills are useless. If your sage we can do dps and use our amazing overpowered skills with 25% dmg reduction :O

Demon sin always has more dps. Demon headhunt, throatcut, and rib strike are all better than their sage counterparts (arguably), and are your hardest hitting skills. Sage Dagger devotion is better tho, and sage CoD is useful for skill spamming. 25% damage reduction is nothing spectacular in pvp, use a pot

Asheera - Raging Tide

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

Demon headhunt, throatcut, and rib strike are all better than their sage counterparts (arguably)

I like Demon Rib Strike more but some prefer sage and... throatcut is not better for demon imo it's too unpredictable I'd rather have 100% seal (even 95% fails sometimes... one in 20 times)

Shadow Teleport is the only REALLY excellent demon skill I'd want over sage, damn if only Sage was made to 30 sec CD and not 150 b:chuckle

Shadowvzs - Lost City

_Leif - Lost City wrote: »

Neither will demon sins. I believe the max for CoD was 4 aps (not taking into account the new rank 9 ****)



Rib strike is purified with triple spark, and a 2 aps bm will still wreck you.



Demon sin always has more dps. Demon headhunt, throatcut, and rib strike are all better than their sage counterparts (arguably), and are your hardest hitting skills. Sage Dagger devotion is better tho, and sage CoD is useful for skill spamming. 25% damage reduction is nothing spectacular in pvp, use a pot

if u think this than i use RC and got 30% attack speed so i am there where u XD

sage subsea strike not bad too because with cod (what work also with genies, like bramble rage vs example a unbuffed bar or pdef sutra bm) u have more chance for better crits in short time.
blood bath and inner not bad too, but i dont think sage better than demon.

Wolfyyy - Raging Tide

I think this Demon VS Sage Sin discussion has been going on for like ages.

I've tried PvPing and PvEing much and this is what I can conclude :-

1) Everyone is too into working out their theories, they don't realise that, as much as they sound feasible, its not quite the way when you're doing it on actual situation.

Lets talk about PvP perspective. We go ranting on and on about the Rib Strikes for both Demon and Sage Sins. But seriously, do you guys actually use Rib that often in PvP? Will 5 attack level make much of a difference in a 2-4 hit battle?

I fought both Demon and Sage Sins for countless of times. These battle are more of " Fastest finger wins " battle and the difference in skills hardly matters. Even so, demon will edge out slightly better due the the additional stun time gained from demon skills.

The only skills I use in PvP would be, Throat Cut, Head Hunt, Sleep, Tackling Slash, Shadow Teleport, Shadow Jump, Maze Steps, do a couple of regular melee swings if the target has like some drip of HP left ( The time you spend to execute Rib stike is almost equivalent to 3-4 melee swings, which deals way more damage. ) - Nothing Else. These skills are enough to keep your opponent in a stun lock. These Fights usually ends within 10 seconds, charm or without - within the time span of maze step.

A Head Hunt Crit can hit for as much as 4k. Demon Tackling Slash has an stunning base damage of 7.6k + weapon damage + base damage. Thats way more than a lv 10 Headhunt. Demon Throat Cut has about the same base damage as well, so I've the reason to believe Sage skill boosts base damage for about as much as well. It takes only 2-4 skills to end a battle.

Triple Spark? Almost useless in PvP. Wind push yourself away from the opponent, do a shadow tele right after this 3 seconds of invulnability ends and begin the stun lock chain. Some will ask " What if my disabling skills are on CD? " Well you can always execute Shadow Escape. And when you're level 101 or more, with demon/sage stealth, a sin of a same level will not be able to see you since there isn't demon detection skills.

Stealth is Cheap? Well, thats the way how Sins are supposed to be played - Its either you kill, or you die.

In regards to PvE, the preference will always go to whichever DD who can Deal damage more efficienly. The tanking capability of the Sage can be easily be replaced by spamming Jiaozhi for Demon sins.

Astrohawke - Lost City

The demon skills that actually matter are all geared towards PvP. Who really cares if sage raving slash is better than the demon version. The only sage skills that are better than demon that might even be used during PvP are power dash and focused mind and imo the bonus they give doesn't even begin to cover the advantages of longer stun from headhunt and shadow teleport.

People keep talking about how if sage gets the same aps then they're better than demon due to dagger mastery. OK true. But how many people believe they can actually get max interval? Until then, demon spark gives you the extra attack speed you need to be better. If you somehow actually manage to get 4 base aps, that's what the option of switching to sage is for.

Okeano - Harshlands

I pretty much agree with what Wolfyyy said. I rarely use Rib Strike in PvP. If you use it at the beginning of the fight, the BM's most likely going to spark and purify it. Using it during the middle is just not worth it and you might as well kill them in a few seconds before you die.

What really matter in PvP, on top of your damage output, is your immobilizing skills. Half hour of Wolf Emblem is nice, but 20% more all the time is pretty much the same as 40% half of the time. The spike of demon version favors PvP. Sage Dash is nice but honestly, those 2 sparks are used for Headhunt for me most of the time. Dash would be for things hard to kill but doesn't hit too hard, like Barbs.

SilentGodai - Lost City

Here let me point out sage skills that you guys keep forgetting!

Demon headhunt is 6 second ;sage is 5 second, 1 second different

Demons Shadow teleport is 5 second with 180(3min) seconds cool down ; sage is 3 second stun for 30 second
2, second different

You get like 3 seconds more than a sage. But if you take a look at sage Maze step it lasts longer than than demon 50 % evasion is not going to help you much against our 2 our instant 100% hit move.

Maybe ribstrike is better in demon than sage who knows.

But seriously i dont see any different other than the sparks for the sage or demon. Our Skills are equally balanced more or less.

Noone uses focused mind in a duel against a sin vs a sin. We got two shield tidal protection and focused mind. In Pvp against stunning class or something that debuff tidal protection always wins. That seal debuff of yours wont work with 66% rate for sage vs 50 % in demon. If you are fighting against a barb or wiz or anything that wants to one hit kill you. Well hopefully focused mind will prevent that with 33% chance in sage and 25% chance in demon.

Also you are an assassin, you are meant to kill arcane and light armor not heavy armor quickly. So stop comparing against bm and barb. If you can kill those classes quickly either they have bad gear or dont know how to play their class will ; or you are just totally uber geared.


Its very simple, there is no comparison which is better in sin sage or demon against each other. Cause we are both quickly and match ends quickly.

Against other class , we can kill them all so fast or hit them very hard so from my point they are both awesome .

If you really like just try to stun a person and demonspark them everytime as pvp style kill go for demon.
Want to spend as little as possible . Choose this path!

If you really know how to play a sin properly with skills go sage. With alot of money/spare time and wanna be this godly tank in stealth that can do pretty much almost everything. From Sleeping , Sealing , Stunning, Amping. Choose this path!

If you are totally rich! A full maxed out gear with super awesome shard with max aps . Sage will always win until than demon will win!.

Its all down to how much you want to spend in this game.

Astrohawke - Lost City

SilentGodai - Lost City wrote: »

Here let me point out sage skills that you guys keep forgetting!

Demon headhunt is 6 second ;sage is 5 second, 1 second different

Demons Shadow teleport is 5 second with 180(3min) seconds cool down ; sage is 3 second stun for 30 second
2, second different

Cooldown is reduced BY 30 seconds not TO 30 seconds.

You get like 3 seconds more than a sage. But if you take a look at sage Maze step it lasts longer than than demon 50 % evasion is not going to help you much against our 2 our instant 100% hit move.

Maybe ribstrike is better in demon than sage who knows.

But seriously i dont see any different other than the sparks for the sage or demon. Our Skills are equally balanced more or less.

If you believe skills are equally balanced then demon > sage because demon spark > sage spark.

Noone uses focused mind in a duel against a sin vs a sin. We got two shield tidal protection and focused mind. In Pvp against stunning class or something that debuff tidal protection always wins. That seal debuff of yours wont work with 66% rate for sage vs 50 % in demon. If you are fighting against a barb or wiz or anything that wants to one hit kill you. Well hopefully focused mind will prevent that with 33% chance in sage and 25% chance in demon.

Also you are an assassin, you are meant to kill arcane and light armor not heavy armor quickly. So stop comparing against bm and barb. If you can kill those classes quickly either they have bad gear or dont know how to play their class will ; or you are just totally uber geared.


Its very simple, there is no comparison which is better in sin sage or demon against each other. Cause we are both quickly and match ends quickly.

Against other class , we can kill them all so fast or hit them very hard so from my point they are both awesome .

If you really like just try to stun a person and demonspark them everytime as pvp style kill go for demon.
Want to spend as little as possible . Choose this path!

If you really know how to play a sin properly with skills go sage. With alot of money/spare time and wanna be this godly tank in stealth that can do pretty much almost everything. From Sleeping , Sealing , Stunning, Amping. Choose this path!

Godly tank? lolol. Plus demon can still do all these things. They get demon versions of the skills...not have all their skills taken away when they become demon...

If you are totally rich! A full maxed out gear with super awesome shard with max aps . Sage will always win until than demon will win!.

Its all down to how much you want to spend in this game.

/10 chars b:bye