On Assassins and Maintaining PvP Balance

KBar - Harshlands

Let's face it my fellow fishmen. Assassins are overpowered. You know it. I know it. They are dominating the 1-on-1 PvP that goes on, to the point that a 'sin with even npc gear can fare quite well, and a 'sin with fantastic gear might as well be a GM in terms of in-game power. From what I've heard from friends and guild-mates, this mostly stems from the sheer amount of dps we're able to put out, three different abilities that can instantly give us sparks, and our ability to stealth in and out of combat with relative ease.

Right now I'm doing about the same damage my Archer of equal level does per attack, but I'm able to put out that damage twice as fast. Anyone wearing robes that can't see us is basically a free kill, and I've seen several high-level 'sins take out Barbarians of equal level with almost no effort.

As much as I absolutely love this, I realize that PvP is eventually going to boil down to 'sin on 'sin combat if something doesn't change. So what we need is a re-balance of the class, and I have some suggestions:

1. Change the way our weapon mastery works.
Rather than have our base damage raised a percentage, instead our mastery should raise our base critical hit damage. This will lower our dps by about a third (or more, depending on your sage/demon path), but increase the dependency on critical hits to do the lion's share of our damage.

2.Change the way Wolf Emblem works.
If our primary damage is crit-based, then of course we're going to have to change our crit buff as well. I see two ways this can be changed to work well with our re-worked mastery: A) make the buff party-wide, and extend the duration to ten minutes (making it much like the barb's physical attack buff, but useful for all classes), or keep the buff at its current 30 second duration, still make it a party-wide buff, but change it so that it effects critical hit rate rather than critical hit damage.

This change will make the 'sin more valuable to the party for both Wolf Emblem and Bloodpaint, hopefully alleviating some of the stigma of the 'sin being little more than a close-range archer.

3. Change the way Shadow Walk and Shadow Escape work.
Right off the bat I'd say the 100 chi gained when Escaping should be removed. We already have Rising Dragon Strike and Inner Harmony that both give 150 chi at the outset, so having the chi gain from Escape seems too much like overkill. Another thing that should change is that these stealth moves should not add stealth level when we use them, as we already have a passive buff that raises stealth level, making this another bit of overkill. Finally, the stealth skills should work more like a typical buff, with a timed duration rather than one based on MP consumption, as any 'sin will tell you that equipping an MP charm gives you near-infinite stealth. IF the dev team feels that the stealth mode should be based on consumption rather than time, then the skill should drain chi rather than MP, as that would even work great with our skills.

I'm speaking as an Assassin here, and I feel that these changes should be implemented to maintain PvP balance. I'm also hoping for meaningful discussion in this thread on the matter rather than whining.

On a final note to GMs/forum mods, I realize this is a thread about a single class that should probably be put in Class Discussion, but I felt that more people go to General Discussion the most so I'm posting this thread here so that people can notice and discuss it. If you guys feel differently, then by all means move the thread to Class Discussion at your discretion.

Nakhimov - Lost City

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJWeWMKfa3g

Rogues = assassins for those who can't figure out the parallels

Admante - Dreamweaver

What was the point of adding skills that gave so much chi for free? Sins already have fast attack rates. The chi part needs to be changed/removed asap.

Sparking or any attack, skill, etc should break stealth. It makes no sense to make a big red explosion centered on your be invisible to everyone else.

I agree wholeheartedly on your goal and hope that SOMETHING is done.

Okeano - Harshlands

Say what you will, suggest what you want. In the end, the devs are in China and what's on here will not reach them. I'm sure players in China have similar suggestions but just pointing out that nothing will be change due to your post or however many posts on here.

Fruitluips - Lost City

+1, agree with everything

A_Noob - Dreamweaver

It IS BALANCED

by the sin's failure in group pvp and aoe skills.

King_Arthur - Harshlands

I agree with kbar, though, i only met one sin that could beat me, and she was lvl90 while im lvl 85, and it took about 2 seconds, the others, i kill them right after they come out of stealth. But there fails anyways.

Sins are able to over power all the other classes. It used to be that there was a chance with any classes whether it was a cleric or mage, they could beat a barb or bm, or a bm can beat a veno with a nix, now its all classes vs sin. and sins are basicly chi spoiled hidden brats, considering they can get chi very very quickly, and stealth gives them chi and there able to buff up, spark, and come out of stealth to kill you in about 2 seconds...with luck, 1 second if your having a bad day.

further more, since sins are able to stealth, then let it be that any skill they decide to use will unstealth them instantly.

If sins don't get balanced, then perfect world international might as well be perfect international tideborn or something, since thats what everyone is going to eventually be. Next thing you know, you wont see a single player running around cause everyone is an assassin in stealth mode and the only time you see them is when they are questing or they come out of stealth to kill you then disappear again.

Nakhimov - Lost City

Do sins get knocked out of stealth by aoe damage? If not then that's a massive balance issue.

Paimage - Harshlands

Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »

Do sins get knocked out of stealth by aoe damage? If not then that's a massive balance issue.

They do but they dont necessarily need to stay close to u, I rarely c sins being knocked out of stealth by an aoe cuz they r always in air waiting for the best chance to strike.

Nakhimov - Lost City

Bah, I always forget how broken air pvp is. They need to fix dropping. b:shocked

wretchedpleasures

Of course you believe the tideborn class is balanced, A_Noob. You are a level 101, which comes incredibly easy for assassins. If you don't think that sins are overpowered, take a visit to westgate. A long time PvP spot, which will probably never change, and that isn't the issue. What the issue is pertains to seeing an entire area of all classes ranging from 7x-9x get wiped out in a matter of a few minutes by some assassin that can force stealth and attack with a tremendous hps rate, ending the PvP fun that has existed. Sins can sit in stealth, and I've seen this happen, all throughout Secret Passage. Haven't seen that? Go there one day and do a bit of running around. You will have at least one sin drop from stealth, stun, and faceroll you. Why is this possible? A bevy of stuns that far exceed a BM's, such as myself. As KBar stated, they are a chi factory, and within seconds can be fully sparked for dreadful skills such as headhunt. What exactly IS the answer to this broken tideborn situation? I can assure you that it has nothing to do with giving sins the chance to go demon or sage, something I'm sure every person that ISN'T a cheapshotting sin loathe. This all being stated, yes, I believe there is a massive issue with this class and its ability to so easily overpower our PvP servers. Kudos for a logical explanation and suggestion.

/Groovy/ - Harshlands

Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »

Do sins get knocked out of stealth by aoe damage? If not then that's a massive balance issue.

AOE damage knocks assassins out from stealth. But I'm quite sure they don't care because of two reasons:
- they can almost immedietaly go invisible again
- they are aware that there is no single AOE damage skill which can be cast without selected target. If they stay away from any targets they are safe.


Maybe one day AOEs centered on caster (like Dragon's Breath, Siren's Kiss, Winged Pledge, etc) will be allowed to cast without any target selected. But I kinda doubt it gonna ever happen.

Kyuukyokutai - Lost City

A_Noob - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It IS BALANCED

by the sin's failure in group pvp and aoe skills.

Did the guy with 5.00 atk speed with CoD lvl 10 on just said that sin's are balanced. LOL

@Topic

Agreed with Everything.

A_Noob - Dreamweaver

not only is it balanced by the fact that sins suck in group pvp and aoe skills but also because they are hated on by so many people.

Okeano - Harshlands

Let's make it so that our spark can been seen by everyone but Venos with Nix.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

KBar - Harshlands wrote: »

IF the dev team feels that the stealth mode should be based on consumption rather than time, then the skill should drain chi rather than MP, as that would even work great with our skills.

I actually really like this idea, would offset the massive chi-gaining ability they have, and give a good reason for shadow escape to gain 1 spark.

It would also create perma-stealth to be very hard to maintain.

GothicAngeI - Heavens Tear

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Let's make it so that our spark can been seen by everyone but Venos with Nix.

Afaik its on the cards in PW-CN than sparking knocks the Sin out of stealth mode

Asheera - Raging Tide

Not this again...

I mean I would understand sparking in stealth would be considered OP and I agree it should force us out of stealth, but you want nerf to sin's fighting capabilities. Are you kidding me now?

We aren't wanted in massive AoE places like Rebirth, we aren't wanted that much in group fights, we aren't good in TW (probably the least wanted class tbh). What the hell do you want, us to be a complete useless class except decent at PKing?

Cuz seriously, sorry to say but all whines I see are only from random world PKing where people are "unprepared" (unlike TW or organized [group] fights) but that's not what the whole game is freaking about. We suck in many aspects I listed above, being the least wanted class in those, and we rock in random PK. If you nerf (not just sparking through stealth which I agree) we'll be even more useless except maybe decent at PK. So no way we need nerfs, period.


If you can't stand the best PK class as its known in most games (rogues/assassins/etc) then stay in Safe Zone and stop QQing.


EDIT: I was curious and checked servers and ofc my theory proves right. 80%+ of people agreeing here are from PK servers.

Nakhimov - Lost City

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

If you can't stand the best PK class as its known in most games (rogues/assassins/etc) then stay in Safe Zone and stop QQing.

I realise I posted a link to part of this earlier in the thread, but at this point I feel it's prudent to link to the whole thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH2L7aa0L-E&feature=fvw

That rogue? That rogue is you

Paimage - Harshlands

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

Not this again...

I mean I would understand sparking in stealth would be considered OP and I agree it should force us out of stealth, but you want nerf to sin's fighting capabilities. Are you kidding me now?

We aren't wanted in massive AoE places like Rebirth, we aren't wanted that much in group fights, we aren't good in TW (probably the least wanted class tbh). What the hell do you want, us to be a complete useless class except decent at PKing?

Cuz seriously, sorry to say but all whines I see are only from random world PKing where people are "unprepared" (unlike TW or organized [group] fights) but that's not what the whole game is freaking about. We suck in many aspects I listed above, being the least wanted class in those, and we rock in random PK. If you nerf (not just sparking through stealth which I agree) we'll be even more useless except maybe decent at PK. So no way we need nerfs, period.


If you can't stand the best PK class as its known in most games (rogues/assassins/etc) then stay in Safe Zone and stop QQing.


EDIT: I was curious and checked servers and ofc my theory proves right. 80%+ of people posted here are from PK servers.

In my point of view the only too op thing sins have is the ability to triple spark while in stealth, Im ok with the rest. Although I believe sins can be really useful in TW and group pvp, to take out important targets such as clerics or the main DDers.

Airyll - Dreamweaver

The most OP thing about the sins is

1) Their ability to spark in any form in stealth without being knocked out of it
2) The ability to regain sparks as fast as anything after they've sparked

This, effectively when you consider their forced stealth, let's them triple spark, attack something, and if it's not dead before they've finished, quickly gain back as much chi as possible, force into stealth, wait and then attack again with further sparks before the target can fully regenerate HP.

Not that the above scenario is always going to be the case, and it can be offset by genie skills among other things, but it's still a plausible scenario and it's far too OP. It's not even PK when your target can barely fight back once you're started to slap them.

Their attacks per second rate I'm not worried about. 5 APS? QQ more, a well decked fist user can hit the same.

It's their spark while in stealth and chi abilities that really make this class OP in terms of 1v1 PvP. Admittedly no, they don't fare so well in group PvP, but then again... group PvP wasn't necessarily the discussion of this thread.
Also, group PvP doesn't exist if a Sin can pick off a group of people one by one with little to no trouble, does it?

TriMydriasis - Harshlands

nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »

i Realise I Posted A Link To Part Of This Earlier In The Thread, But At This Point I Feel It's Prudent To Link To The Whole Thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh2l7aa0l-e&feature=fvw

That Rogue? that Rogue Is You

*applause*

Asheera - Raging Tide

Paimage - Harshlands wrote: »

In my point of view the only too op thing sins have is the ability to triple spark while in stealth, Im ok with the rest.

I agree and if you want it even more make all buffs or skills unusable in stealth or else you get unstealthed, like in some other games.

INovaI - Archosaur

Like other people said the fact that they can spark in stealth and all the stuns/seals/sleeps they have just makes them a broken **** class. i mean its pretty ridiculous when an 89 sin with 78 mold gear on can take out my decked out 101 archer in 2 seconds just by 3 sparking in stealth -__-

XChrono - Sanctuary

srsly... more QQ threads..

1. Stop making new thread, use the millions already there
2. Sin's arnt as OP as you think(non cashshoppers) sins have a hard time lvling early on. And even though you may say that sins do the same dmg as archer per hit but atks twice as fast, look at this. Sin = squishy melee class Archer = squishy ranged class
and sins being able to stun better than bm's? srsly?
Sin's have 2 stuns, one of which (tele stun) 180 sec cooldown. HeadHunt 2 sparks needed..
not exactly able to stunlock with those, what we have though is a silence(seal), that you can still move in and a sleep that allows bleed, but as we all know, bleeds are nerfed at later lvls.

Also sin's are pve difficient and hard to play. all the other classes have many pve advantages:
Archer - range and barrage
bm - do i need to say? stuns, groups stuns, and aoe's in general
barb - tank... nuff said
veno - i won't answer that one
cleric -range, tempest, heals (tempest on butterflys is great )
wizards - range, dmg and continuous aoe(no remember name but you get it at lvl 29 b:shocked)

btw have you ppl every tried the game with a sin as main, meaning no money and benefits from other characters, and no cash shop? not easy >.>

One thing is for sure though, with experience we can be pretty good and pvp. But sins are so hated and disliked. Sins uses in bh's? dd, scout and someone that will get the squad killed if he isn't smart enough. Aoe partes? not really, 2 aoe's one requires 2 sparks...
And we're not exactly invincible in pvp.
eg. sins stealth to gank a cleric, just as he starts, barb runs in, armaggedon, 1 shot. (this happened to me) cooldown for deaden nerves is kinda long
A high lvl sin can be really.... though, i remember another high lvled sin well geared one hit me while i was in stealth then just disappeared bk into stealth. not fun...

Solution? try a different playing style...

KBar - Harshlands

I had not intended this to be a "QQ" thread, I simply wished to address a known issue that a good deal of players are vocal about and offer possible solutions. My suggestions are not intended to be "nerfs" to the class (indeed, my suggestions to the changes for Wolf Emblem would actually improve assassins in group-based PvE and PvP), but to help maintain balance in a PvP environment.

I created this thread knowing that many assassins would not like the idea of their beloved class being changed in any way. But all my suggested changes would do would simply change the way the class was played, rather than weaken it. The change from being an attack spamming class(be it normal attack or skills) to being a crit-based class is a more effective route of balance in my opinion than just weakening the class's skills overall.

The whole "using any skill knocks the assassin out of stealth" idea seems interesting, and a change like that would mean a 'sin would have to buff up before stealthing if he wanted to hit an opponent with a surprise attack, and would certainly add complexity to how the class would be played.

On a final note, I don't want to get overly aggressive here, but if someone is having difficulty playing the assassin class without cash-shopping, then they need to just re-roll as something else. Playing an Assassin is not that difficult. I can make a guide for you if you're having too much trouble.

Egaenil - Heavens Tear

Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »

I agree and if you want it even more make all buffs or skills unusable in stealth or else you get unstealthed, like in some other games.

b:bye dw wont last long, PW-CN u already cant triple spark while stay invis, if u read sin forum u would know that by now :P

john343

why don't knock-back skills work in pvp? i've seen many vids of wiz+archers fighting and not once did the knock-back work. also sins should unstealth on any ability, like in halo, perfect dark, KOTOR, really any game that has a stealth mode.

Mrvate - Heavens Tear

I don't think its the sins stealth that makes them op'd in pvp (though it does help), what I really think makes them op'd is there control skills. I can be fully buffed and have an ih spam going on me, and a sin is able do a solid stun/sleep/silence whatever it is they're all doing for long enough for ih spam to weaken enough to kill me. without a single break in there, not even long enough to use guardian light (an instant cast skill). No other class can do that, not even bm. They might stun lock you, but there are always enough little holes in it. so for the most part I can beat bm's or even most class's if they don't heavily outgear me, but any semi competent sin (uses stealth and control skills) can kill me even though they're under lvl'd and geared compared to me.

And to those who said that sins aren't good at group pvp/tw. I think your wrong. I think you're one of the best cleric protectors/killers in the game. the other's were bm's and archers. Bm's have a problem of killing archers that are on clerics due to range, you handle that well. Archer's are also good with the ranged enemies (duh), but can then lack the ability to stop a bm who's up at the cleric. sin though may not excel at killing bm's I think they're better at it then a archer if the archer doesn't have the range on them.

oh an on the balance video, I lol'd at that.

Edit: @john343 your latin is wrong, its veni vidi vici. not vedi.

Vorhs - Lost City

Nakhimov - Lost City wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJWeWMKfa3g

Rogues = assassins for those who can't figure out the parallels

LOL this video explains exactly what i mean when i say stealth classes are OP by axiom!

loved it b:thanks

btw noone cant do anything more to prevent PW gaining a stealth class... the worst possible idea is already implemented. b:sad

we just have to cry or kill all the possible low levels assassins so they'll be annoyed and will never reach high levels b:angry

XChrono - Sanctuary

It's not that I mind that sin's skills being changed but srsly, it's only pvp, i don't even pvp that much. i'f love another party buff, and spark knocking you out of stealth isn't that big a difference, the invincibility time is still there....
im all for moar party buffs
cause are only party buff only works on 2 other classes ....
and all those stuff ppl talking about are endgame
me thinks sins were made to balance previous OP classes lol
but neh triple spark knocks you out, not a bid deal cause i don't really stealth to kill mobs unless guards in bh's