Will the drop rate EVER be raised?
Comments
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For each Tiger Pack that I sell 2% of the cost goes to the Auction House fee, thus creating a 7,500 coin-sink. However, there's a 1.72% chance of winning 5 million coins from one, meaning the average Tiger Pack is a 86,000 coin-generator.Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »There's too many coin sinks, not enough coin generators. How you argument against this by factoring "player trade" into account is beyond me.
The net result is inflation, because more coins are going into the economy thanks to Tiger Packs than are coming out. I'm moving roughly 350 per day, for a total of net coin-generation of 27.5 million coins going in per day, and I'm just one merchant out of about a half-dozen, so my estimate is that the merchants are seeing 125 million coins per day going into the economy through the Packs we're selling.
It gets worse, though, because for every Pack a merchant sells there are probably at least 10 being bought directly (I'm basing this on comparing the rates Duke Blacke used to shout out the rewards vs. the rate Packs were selling from merchants.) Thus a total of about 1.25 billion coins is going into the server economy every day.
I repeat: 1.25 Billion, every single day.
So, yeah, the reason prices are so high is because of inflation, and the reason there's inflation is because of the Packs. The role that the merchants play is actually pretty minor, but we're easy targets because people are emotional and they work hard grinding and expect to be rewarded, even if their work isn't worth anything.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
I think it's the packs inflating the market indirectly and hurting people who 'work' and farm their stuff. I mean, with a lucky streak, you could get things worth millions of stuff from a pack, and all of this with no effort, you just "create" this. It's similar to creating coins by killing monsters, except you create goods.
Not to mention people who could farm stuff for that have no chance anymore, Lunar for example is worthless to farm when you can get it easier from packs.
And of course, the dreaded best tokens being able to trade 2 for 10 million coins. Which I don't have to explain causes a huge inflation, right? It's effectively creating coins with gold, if you're lucky with pack openings and get some best tokens.
Packs started the slow process that will result in the end of PWI.
Setting up a catshop for merchanting is sooooo much harder. Except you have to let your computer on the whole time, which some people can't do (NOTHING to do with work or effort in here though) and be lucky enough other ppl buy from you low and sell to you high.AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »While we're at it, I want every mob to drop 3 trillion coins, cause, you know, grinding is soooo hard.
Again, it's just the ability to let computer online non stop + being lucky with trades from other players. Nothing at all to do with work, at least grinding does. ijs
Rich spoiled merchanting ppl are a bit annoying for me exactly because of this, that they don't 'work' at all and have tons. BUT once they start to be arrogant and make fun of the hard working ones who grind (or pay real cash money*) they become disgusting to me - you don't "work", don't "produce" anything even in game, just leech money off other people who do work, indirectly. And then make fun of them with every opportunity and brag about how easy it is because you have lots of money. Disgraceful.
This somehow reminds me of a scenario with a guy lucky or smart enough to become king, and then being arrogant enough to laugh in the face of the farmers when they want a boost to their income. Even though you are the lazy one not producing anything, just leeching off the farmer's goods for you to eat
* Refer to my statement above when I used asterisk in the brackets. Although that could classify as 'work' , it's a bit unfair as well, some ppl in some countries are much poorer than others, making actual 'work' unbalanced. Perfect would be to compare work in game, because there everyone has the same starting chances to win the same things, except maybe the difference in class playstyles. Still, for simplicity's sake, let's assume everyone has the same good earning jobs so every cash shopper who bought 100 gold worked as hard as the other to earn it.First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
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This is true, packs inflated the market hugely. Which also proves a bit the point of grinders.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »Wow. This is the first time I've ever heard *anyone* say there are too many coin sinks in the game. There aren't enough. That's one of the reasons why gold is at 420-450k right now. If there were very little coin in-game, packs without perfect tokens of best luck wouldn't matter and gold would still be selling for 100k. EDIT: Actually that isn't quite true, Jolly Jones introduced mass amounts of oracles (coin reward from cash shopping) and that's really when inflation started to rise.
Thing is, while in some area money 'rains from the sky' and inflates market, grinding is the same as was before. But prices rise because of packs.
So relatively, grinders have reason to complain, and you can't compare with how it was 1 year ago or whenever you started playing the game. Making money right now is simply pretty much impossible except merchanting or charging Zen. As I said PWI is kinda dying slowly and when they realize it will be too late.First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
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Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Rich spoiled merchanting ppl are a bit annoying for me exactly because of this, that they don't 'work' at all and have tons. BUT once they start to be arrogant and make fun of the hard working ones who grind (or pay real cash money*) they become disgusting to me - you don't "work", don't "produce" anything even in game, just leech money off other people who do work, indirectly. And then make fun of them with every opportunity and brag about how easy it is because you have lots of money. Disgraceful.
I find this quite amusing. This is a game. How do you earn a living in the real world? Who do you provide goods or services to that rip off people to pay your salary. I mean, someone has to accept money, someone has to take some... and someone has to pass it along to someone else... Unless you live in a hippie commune, but you don't... you're on a computer assembled with components made by people making low wages, and omg, you paid for it too, unless you stole that, and the electricity, so you must be a theif on some level. How disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself. This is just an internet forum for a game, yet you're preaching about someone providing a service and making some coin off of it?
Just... laughing my **** off harder than I have in a while...Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Thing is, while in some area money 'rains from the sky' and inflates market, grinding is the same as was before. But prices rise because of packs.
So relatively, grinders have reason to complain, and you can't compare with how it was 1 year ago or whenever you started playing the game. Making money right now is simply pretty much impossible except merchanting or charging Zen. As I said PWI is kinda dying slowly and when they realize it will be too late.
No, grinding isn't the same as it was before. I never used to merchant before the beginning of this year, I usually never had problems purchasing my skills as they became available, nor did I have problems saving up probably between 5-10m in coin by the time I was 7x so I could purchase the odd piece of fashion or a new piece of gear when I saw something I liked.
The pace of grinding for money hasn't changed. The pace of people leveling has. That is why there is a disparaging gap between what you need and what you can afford.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Please read my post again... I'm not disgusted by merchants (only annoyed a bit), I'm disgusted when merchants laugh in the face of others when they complain about how hard it is to work for your coins. When their fortune is not worth any work at all.First 103 on Raging Tide 30 Oct 2010
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Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Please read my post again... I'm not disgusted by merchants (only annoyed a bit), I'm disgusted when merchants laugh in the face of others when they complain about how hard it is to work for your coins. When their fortune is not worth any work at all.
For 200k exp before BH, you would probably have to do 3-4 Justice Orders or Wanteds. That would mean at least 180-320 mobs. That would probably net you at least 250-350k. Many times if you were doing a grind quest, if the mobs were dropping particularly well, you would continue for an hour or two *after* you reached your mob or drop limit because you were making money.
The grind has been removed from Perfect World.... THAT is why everyone speed leveling is broke. People love leveling fast, PWI does too because they're more likely to spend real money. Most things in this game, herc, nix, or fashion or charms or whatever used to be easily purchasable just from normal playing.... due to the lack of coin sinks, now they are mostly out of reach.
Merchanting has always been part of the game... it's similar to NPCing, except other people often need the stuff you don't, so when you merchant, it's really win-win. You are not forced to purchase anything from another player, the auction house, or a cat shop.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
Candie - Raging Tide wrote: »More drops on grinding won't affect NPC prices like skills levelling , teleports , medium ink , etc . No need to bring capitalists science here
Won't affect them, but look at them:
1. Every player only levels all skills once
2. Every player only uses a fixed amount of Medium Inks
The only exception could be the teleports, but those costs are miniscule and the DQ drops are scaled just fine for those.
The thing is, after you have maxed skills, the only thing you'll be doing with coin is saving up to buy gear.
And the real problem with coin drops is that they generate coin from thin air, instead of being an exchange. And you also have to consider that the amount of players on PWI is most likely in several thousands, if not in the 10,000s already. Making even a miniscule change to the coin drops, say, adding 20%, would have a huge effect.If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.
Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.0 -
Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »No, grinding isn't the same as it was before. I never used to merchant before the beginning of this year, I usually never had problems purchasing my skills as they became available, nor did I have problems saving up probably between 5-10m in coin by the time I was 7x so I could purchase the odd piece of fashion or a new piece of gear when I saw something I liked.
The pace of grinding for money hasn't changed. The pace of people leveling has. That is why there is a disparaging gap between what you need and what you can afford.
This is exactly the reason. Back in the day, if you were a BM and could AoE grind on Thiefs, you could achieve plenty of money. One hour gets you around 200k-400k money. I can only manage to get 200k, but some people tell me they manage to get 400k. I have no idea how much EXP you get for grinding (I can never pull of a full hour without deaths), so I can't really estimate anything. Let's guess you get 5%/hour. That would mean 20hrs of grinding for level. On average you could get around 6m coins per level (300k*20hrs), give or take a few k.
Now it's way different. We have 3xBH, CS and WQ along with PQ and MQ. If you only do BH, you need around 1.4m EXP to level from 72 to 73. One BH chain gives you about 350k EXP. That means 4 BH chains to level. That means 12 bosses killed. If you don't get any molds or good 3* items, you won't get any money. That's why you must grind or charge ZEN. If you do grind, you most probably won't do it more than an hour.
All in all, you just level too fast to get any money. Prices were lower back then, but you also generated WAY more money.100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
Yeah, money was tight at times back then, but making enough to cover everything wasn't something you actively had to think about... it just happened as you played.Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »Making even a miniscule change to the coin drops, say, adding 20%, would have a huge effect.
It already has. Look how cheap mold prices are in the auction house. Many molds will never sell. Look at TT prices. Rock bottom. Only a few mats that are used for more than one item or that are difficult drops have bounced back a little.
Sure it's cheap, everyone loves it.... however you get a lucky mold drop... BH69 Calamity Axes dropped, so you can't use them. It used to sell for 5-6m. With all the BH that everyone does, now that mold is only worth 700-800k. Despite being the most OP weapon at 7x, 2x drops and BH has made them practically worthless. All the molds that used to sell for between 400k-1m are now worth 50-200k.
Getting a 3* item drop used to make people's eyes bulge out. Now nobody really cares.
BH and 1x drops have eliminated a good source of one-time revenue for a lot of players who would have been lucky.
Sure, now it's easy to get good gear for cheap. It also means it's relatively worthless when you've outgrown it.
Cash shop bikinis ruined Dragon Temple. 2x drops ruined molds, tt drops and 3* values. Packs eliminated mid and high mat values. Not really much left in-game to earn coin from.
Grinding paid your CS, repairs, skills, teleport and pots and let you save up a little. Grinding has been removed and is no longer necessary to level.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
The best and easiest ways to make $$ I have alrdy mentioned (and of course are HUGELY different from what they used to be).
However, where most ppl go wrong --> Not knowing the market and pricing. Things change everyday, if you are not aware of it = gg.
If you do know and know how to play it = b:victoryb:dirty
Overall, I once again have to agree with Michael in what he says. BH's/Hypers/Oracles/etc has greatly contributed to the "poor" being "poor."
I miss the old days b:cry[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
RoidAbuse is awesome, only he would sell his sperm for gear!!
"Toughest monster? ..... RedsRose b:surrender" - Kantorek
Where is my 1 v 1 Kan? b:mischievous0 -
I'm almost level 92 , I still have Tempest at level 5 , I can't afford to level it T_T Well , not like I need it , just an example . And whenever I need to learn a sage skill , I have to borrow 1 million from faction member .0
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I agree with you about those who don't do the work should be thankful and respectful to those who are doing the work. That's why I'm always willing to freely tell people exactly what I'm doing, because I feel it creates a system that is more transparent and fair.Asheera - Raging Tide wrote: »Rich spoiled merchanting ppl are a bit annoying for me exactly because of this, that they don't 'work' at all and have tons. BUT once they start to be arrogant and make fun of the hard working ones who grind (or pay real cash money*) they become disgusting to me - you don't "work", don't "produce" anything even in game, just leech money off other people who do work, indirectly. And then make fun of them with every opportunity and brag about how easy it is because you have lots of money. Disgraceful.
However, in most cases it's people's mental inflexibility that prevents them from changing their playing style, not sort of actual real barrier like not being allowed/able to leave a cat-shop running at night. Thus it's somewhat hard to feel guilty about being willing to do what others refuse to do, especially when it's kinda fun and the rewards are great.
And as is human nature, whenever people are mentally inflexible they invoke false morality in order to demonize the actions they don't want to take, while simultaneously bestowing some sort of artificial moral worth to their own actions.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »I agree with you about those who don't do the work should be thankful and respectful to those who are doing the work. That's why I'm always willing to freely tell people exactly what I'm doing, because I feel it creates a system that is more transparent and fair.
However, in most cases it's people's mental inflexibility that prevents them from changing their playing style, not sort of actual real barrier like not being allowed/able to leave a cat-shop running at night. Thus it's somewhat hard to feel guilty about being willing to do what others refuse to do, especially when it's kinda fun and the rewards are great.
And as is human nature, whenever people are mentally inflexible they invoke false morality in order to demonize the actions they don't want to take, while simultaneously bestowing some sort of artificial moral worth to their own actions.
I'll just be honest, merchanting is just too boring for me. I like killing things lol.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
This would only be true if everyone got their coins by grinding. Most people don't, even during 2x events rarely seen anyone grind and prices didn't go up.Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »If they increased the coin drops, they would also increase the amount of coins in the circulation and the market would soon adapt to that, effectively changing nothing.0 -
After reading through the thread, I have come to these conclusions:
- The GM's didn't have the time to give an answer, yet they had time to move this.
- The in-game economy is screwed beyond repair and there are no plans to fix it.
- The game is purposely made so that not all players can enjoy it.
- The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and the rich constantly gloat over it.
- There are still many angry kids pissed off at the world on these forums.
- Many people agree with me.
- This one I already knew, but it's worth mentioning again: PWE is all about money and could care less about customer satisfaction.
Another thing worth mentioning is this: I visit various mmorpg sites that rate games. One thing that I found interesting is that the rating for PWI isn't as high as it used to be, and it continues to fall. Gee, I wonder why? -sarcasm-
Taking all of the above into consideration, added with biased bans and punishments, the fact that "anyone can be banned for any reason or for no reason at any time", allowing players to buy back their accounts after they sell them privately, GM's giving away end-game gear to certain players for free, bugs galore in-game, plus numerous other reasons I don't care to list right now, I would say that the choice of leaving this game is quite clear.
It's only a matter of time before PWI completely implodes upon itself, and the sequel follows the same fate. I can't list the sequels name, because it is "forbidden".
And before a mod or whoever comes in and calls this post trolling, learn what trolling is. This is truth telling. I'm giving facts. It's not trolling if it's the truth.0 -
The best thing to do right now is not to LVL and gain money only from being low - mid LVL alts b:chuckle thats the main reason why I kept my chars below 60 b:cute
But yeah, if you want to have better drop rate, stop merchanting, take a break or use alts below 60 until the devs get a wake up call[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Thanks for Flauschkatze for siggy b:cool
VIT > STR > DEX > MAG... GG
HA > LA > AR... GG
HA + VIT = win b:bye0 -
Jennalicious - Sanctuary wrote: »After reading through the thread, I have come to these conclusions:
- The GM's didn't have the time to give an answer, yet they had time to move this.
- The in-game economy is screwed beyond repair and there are no plans to fix it.
- The game is purposely made so that not all players can enjoy it.
- The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and the rich constantly gloat over it.
- There are still many angry kids pissed off at the world on these forums.
- Many people agree with me.
- This one I already knew, but it's worth mentioning again: PWE is all about money and could care less about customer satisfaction.
Another thing worth mentioning is this: I visit various mmorpg sites that rate games. One thing that I found interesting is that the rating for PWI isn't as high as it used to be, and it continues to fall. Gee, I wonder why? -sarcasm-
Taking all of the above into consideration, added with biased bans and punishments, the fact that "anyone can be banned for any reason or for no reason at any time", allowing players to buy back their accounts after they sell them privately, GM's giving away end-game gear to certain players for free, bugs galore in-game, plus numerous other reasons I don't care to list right now, I would say that the choice of leaving this game is quite clear.
It's only a matter of time before PWI completely implodes upon itself, and the sequel follows the same fate. I can't list the sequels name, because it is "forbidden".
And before a mod or whoever comes in and calls this post trolling, learn what trolling is. This is truth telling. I'm giving facts. It's not trolling if it's the truth.
+1
Honestly couldn't have said it better myself. The day the developers realize this, is the day this game becomes a game once again.0 -
No, it's just the stubborn that stay poor.Jennalicious - Sanctuary wrote: »- The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and the rich constantly gloat over it.
As I mentioned, I have a low-level alt on Lost City. He started out with nothing, and that includes knowing anybody who could give me any help starting out.
After the first 5 hours of playing I had 75k from all my drops. I bought 40 Honey Juice, set up shop, and went to bed. After 6 days of playing maybe an hour or so each day, followed by setting up shop, I had my first million.
Multiplying that 1 million into 12 million was just a matter of following some advice I was given by somebody here on the forums about how to invest during sale events. I had been making poor investments, but thankfully I have an open mind and so I learned that going for big profits (like buying something for 35k, waiting 1 month, then selling for 110k) was a mistake. It was explained to me that it's far FAR more profitable to buy for 50k and immediately sell for 52k, again and again and again.
I suspect, though, that what I saw as "advice", you probably would have read as "gloating".
Yeah, those two points do tend to go together.Jennalicious - Sanctuary wrote: »- There are still many angry kids pissed off at the world on these forums.
- Many people agree with me.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
10charsandstuffJennalicious - Sanctuary wrote: »- The GM's didn't have the time to give an answer, yet the forum mods, who are in no way employees of PWE, had time to move this.
- The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, and the rich constantly gloat over it. Some of the rich try to teach the poor, but are ignored or flamed for their trouble. Why should we teach if people are unwilling to learn?
- There are still many angry kids pissed off at the world on these forums. No arguments here.
- Many people agree with me and many disagree. You don't get to pick and choose to try to make a point.0 -
hhm Warren cool story bro...so when i need cash NOW...i meed to wait 1 month?? and wat dumb **** will fall for that buy for 50 k and sell for 52k ****...way to time consuming for me and ppl arent that dumb anymore plus.......
STOP STRAYINGb:angry
gah geez the point was that coin drops should riase to compensate the lv cuz i cant go and kiil 85mobs at lv90 for 40k(includes turning in and dq and randoms)...does that add up to u??0 -
Not really.hhm Warren cool story bro...so when i need cash NOW...i meed to wait 1 month??
When I need money NOW, I just reach into the huge pile of booty I earned last month. But since I never empty the pile, and I keep replenishing it, it's effectively bottomless.
The mental hurdle that was keeping me from making the leap between "player who spends everything he earns" vs. "player who re-invests his earnings and now has more money than he can spend" held me back for about 7 months. Once I crossed it, though, the problem of having enough money NOW disappeared.
Time to place bid for 135 Gold @ 420k: 3 minutes.and wat dumb **** will fall for that buy for 50 k and sell for 52k ****...way to time consuming for me and ppl arent that dumb anymore
Time to buy 150 Tiger Packs: 1 minute.
Time to set up shop selling packs @ 409k: 3 minutes.
# of "dumb **** ppl" (your words, not mine) who buy the packs @ 409k that I paid 386k for: 150.
Profit: 3.5 million for 7 minutes of effort.
# of times this cycle is repeated per day: ~2
These number changed over the course of the sale, mind you, and profits slowly shrunk to about half of this, but this was roughly the numbers I was doing for most of the sale.
But now it's all coming to an end as the end of the Tiger Pack sale approaches. Some will try to keep the gravy-train going and might find themselves unable to get Gold before the event ends. Personally, I'm getting out early, but it won't be long until I'm doing something else.
Will this work for everybody? Nope. Because there's a learning curve involved, and many will become frustrated along the way. But it's not that tough to figure out for people who enjoy a challenge, and that's what makes video games fun, IMO.
I'm just a measly Barb, and even I can AoE grind batches of same-level mobs for far more coins than I used to be able to at a lower level. The income scaling isn't the problem, in fact it scales just fine.plus.......
STOP STRAYINGb:angry
gah geez the point was that coin drops should riase to compensate the lv cuz i cant go and kiil 85mobs at lv90 for 40k(includes turning in and dq and randoms)...does that add up to u??
The problem is that grinding is so mindless and so simple that anybody can do it, which is why it's effectively so worthless.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
I'm sorry to break up this fiery discussion of economics, business, merchanting, hyper-inflation, coin sinks, who has X trillions in their pockets and soooooooooooo oooooooooooon....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
But I thought this was a game, you know.....a game? not a job or a bulletin board or w/e else. Honestly, it's quite saddening to see how from the beginning of a few things in the past month (Jolly Old Jones, the accursed packs from hell, etc) have triggered this whole new mindset in everyone that the only way to even enjoy this game now is to be the best, have the best, do the best and being psychotically wealthy.
Quote and flame me all you want, but I remember wanting to try out a free to play MMORPG for a nice, interesting story based action filled game like my own traditional RPGs, except this came with a twist where there're many other things to do, and attaining certain goals which mainly come through player to player interaction and cooperation. Why do I need to be insanely rich as a non-cashshopper in these times? Player greed? PWE's greed and lack of compassion for the game anymore? that's no fun if it's all you can think about...b:surrender
Obviously there are many things in this game where money is needed ingame (e.g. Skills) and that's natural for all RPGs for there to such things, and I'm not saying the feature of CS is bad in this game as it's the only way to give back to the company. What I really dislike now is that every1 is now worrying how to make a large sum of money as fast/best as possible, 'cause for 'some reason' everything else is too boring *cough*Hyperstones*cough*.
In the days before the corrupt packs, nobody was crying out for all these ways to access new game content be strictly by CS, it was just given to us as 'the new stuff'. If all this new stuff except, the normal CS only items (fashion, mounts) could all be accessed ingame, independent of CS, such as the event **** and instance-related gear (un-nerfed Frost and Lunar mats), and not only by packs, would it really be as bad as it is now??
Anyways, my rant and few thoughts are over for now, I'll be coming back to PWI in another week from University, and I'll be coming to play 'Perfect World International'(what's left of it) and not 'Merchant, CashShop & Economics World International'.b:bye
PS:If this game is somehow your job to take it seriously where you need to make a lotta money just to play it at all, be my guest.●Barb - The "natural" leader. Cool and collected, slow to anger, and typically jovial. Swift to act when friends' lives are in danger, and prepared to lay down his life if the situation calls for it.
End of lvling, starting of the unimaginableb:laughb:victoryb:coolb:cool0 -
Jennalicious - Sanctuary wrote: »Taking all of the above into consideration, added with biased bans and punishments, the fact that "anyone can be banned for any reason or for no reason at any time", allowing players to buy back their accounts after they sell them privately, GM's giving away end-game gear to certain players for free, bugs galore in-game, plus numerous other reasons I don't care to list right now, I would say that the choice of leaving this game is quite clear.
I'm pretty sure you can say that about any game. Your chars on any MMO do not belong to you, can be changed altered or banned at any time for any reason, or for no real reason at all. Every piece of software that takes up gigabytes of space have numerous flaws... there is no such thing as a bug-free game. Name a game where you're allowed to sell your account for real money. I don't think there is one.I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.0 -
I think you guys are missing a major point. There's no need to raise coin drop rates, the real reason the economy is ****ed up is because of the packs. Back in the old days packs used to be out rarely now it seems like there on every other month. Thats just ridicoulous since the packs favor rich people who can charge hundreds of dollars in zen. Of course you have to really that the devs have to make money to run the servers so its fine for them to try to make profit using the packs, however they should not be trying to make huge profits at the expense of poor players grinding there little hearts out.
The solution is simple thougth, dont make the packs a permanent thing they should be gone for 6 months to a year then come back for a while again. People would still grind for their money, the lazy/rich will charge zen, and gold prices will go down to an acceptable level. Moderation is key to balancing making profits to keep the servers running and keeping the economy balanced.0 -
IRL there's a thing called loans, which don't exist in game. Without loans no service would be "profitable", it's a zero-sum game. At least, in our capitalist world. That is why merchanting IS a zero-sum game.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »I find this quite amusing. This is a game. How do you earn a living in the real world? Who do you provide goods or services to that rip off people to pay your salary. I mean, someone has to accept money, someone has to take some... and someone has to pass it along to someone else... Unless you live in a hippie commune, but you don't... you're on a computer assembled with components made by people making low wages, and omg, you paid for it too, unless you stole that, and the electricity, so you must be a theif on some level. How disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourself. This is just an internet forum for a game, yet you're preaching about someone providing a service and making some coin off of it?
FACT is, merchanters usually know that if everyone merchanted, this activity would be NULLIFIED. Because it's not productive.
Here's a simpler example, a very simplistic example of merchanting. Note that this isn't even proper merchanting at all, imagine that can be even worse:
There's 1 mil total coins in circulation. You need 100k for all your skills, and have that money, but don't want to get broke so you wait until you have 200k (example). Suppose you sell mats for 200k and buy for 100k. Someone with the mats sold them to you, you lost 100k (so you have 0 now) but gained the mats. You sold the mats then to someone else for 200k.
Now you have 200k, but someone lost 200k and got the mats, and someone else gained 100k and lost his mats. You spend it on skills. You've achieved your goal, but who paid for it? Someone else.
So end result: for your skills SOMEONE ELSE paid the price. SOMEONE ELSE LOST MONEY FOR YOU. Merchanting is like involuntary (or "stupid") DONATIONS from others. Which are never productive.
If person A donates to person B, and person B donates to person A (i.e both merchant), what happens?
NOTHING. One of the two people NEED the other to be "stupid", but not the other way around.
The rich just got richer and the poor poorer. Yep, merchanting is such a productive activity, definitely doesn't leech off other ppl. Which is why EVERYONE can do it, correct? b:avoid /sarcasm
I find it funny how merchanters have this "houlier than thou" attitude when they DEPEND on "stupid" people, or how they call them. Effectively, they NEED stupid people, the very ones who they laugh at. Pathetic.
Merchanting is for the selfish. Sorry, cold hard facts. I'm sick of those trying to justify it as good when all they do, is DEPEND on "stupid people" who DON'T do it. At least have the courtesy to respect such stupid people who finance your selfish activities.
I still don't see what you don't GET from what I said.Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »The grind has been removed from Perfect World.... THAT is why everyone speed leveling is broke. People love leveling fast, PWI does too because they're more likely to spend real money. Most things in this game, herc, nix, or fashion or charms or whatever used to be easily purchasable just from normal playing.... due to the lack of coin sinks, now they are mostly out of reach.
If PWI made possible fast levelling by dailies, why not make possible fast CASH by dailies? Think of it as exp/coin ratio. Let's assume before this ratio was x. Now because of BH and no cash daily, the ratio is much higher.
To compensate, add a cash daily. As simple as that.
And no I don't mean a daily that's lazy. I want a challenge, fun, whatever, something that makes you play the game. But for the love of God, make it worthwile and not severly gimped like ANY other ways of making coins. WTH. b:angry0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »IRL there's a thing called loans, which don't exist in game. Without loans no service would be "profitable", it's a zero-sum game. At least, in our capitalist world. That is why merchanting IS a zero-sum game.
FACT is, merchanters usually know that if everyone merchanted, this activity would be NULLIFIED. Because it's not productive.
Here's a simpler example, a very simplistic example of merchanting. Note that this isn't even proper merchanting at all, imagine that can be even worse:
There's 1 mil total coins in circulation. You need 100k for all your skills, and have that money, but don't want to get broke so you wait until you have 200k (example). Suppose you sell mats for 200k and buy for 100k. Someone with the mats sold them to you, you lost 100k (so you have 0 now) but gained the mats. You sold the mats then to someone else for 200k.
Now you have 200k, but someone lost 200k and got the mats, and someone else gained 100k and lost his mats. You spend it on skills. You've achieved your goal, but who paid for it? Someone else.
So end result: for your skills SOMEONE ELSE paid the price. SOMEONE ELSE LOST MONEY FOR YOU. Merchanting is like involuntary (or "stupid") DONATIONS from others. Which are never productive.
If person A donates to person B, and person B donates to person A (i.e both merchant), what happens?
NOTHING. One of the two people NEED the other to be "stupid", but not the other way around.
The rich just got richer and the poor poorer. Yep, merchanting is such a productive activity, definitely doesn't leech off other ppl. Which is why EVERYONE can do it, correct? b:avoid /sarcasm
I find it funny how merchanters have this "houlier than thou" attitude when they DEPEND on "stupid" people, or how they call them. Effectively, they NEED stupid people, the very ones who they laugh at. Pathetic.
Merchanting is for the selfish. Sorry, cold hard facts. I'm sick of those trying to justify it as good when all they do, is DEPEND on "stupid people" who DON'T do it. At least have the courtesy to respect such stupid people who finance your selfish activities.
I still don't see what you don't GET from what I said.
If PWI made possible fast levelling by dailies, why not make possible fast CASH by dailies? Think of it as exp/coin ratio. Let's assume before this ratio was x. Now because of BH and no cash daily, the ratio is much higher.
To compensate, add a cash daily. As simple as that.
And no I don't mean a daily that's lazy. I want a challenge, fun, whatever, something that makes you play the game. But for the love of God, make it worthwile and not severly gimped like ANY other ways of making coins. WTH. b:angry
Kinda hard to start to comment on your post, but I'll try it:
1) In your example, you said that someone else paid for your skills. Yes, it's true; you used their money to buy your own skills. Your text also suggests that merchanting = scamming. It's not. If you buy mid mats for 2.8k each, and sell those for 3.5k, it's your own decision. They could get more money by selling their mats on their own cat shop for, say, 3.2k. It's just that they are too lazy to do that.
2)The three greatest merchants (Solandri, Michael_dark and WarrenWolfy) never say anything about "stupid people". Merchants are here to make it easier for people to make money. Let's say that you farm mats for an hour and then come back to Arch to sell those. You have mid mats that sell for 2.8k each to merchant's catshop, but if you used your own catshop you could get 3.2k each. It's still better to sell those to someone else's catshop, since the time you take to sell your mats you can use on farming/grinding instead.
3)People who use merchants (yes sounds wrong) are not stupid, like I pointed earlier. They just can't merchant themselves.
4)PWI has a fast way to make EXP now. It also gets you some SP (5 EXP per each SP, same as grinding I think) along the way. That makes leveling easy. Read these points and tell me if you still think it's a good idea to get a coin daily:
- people hate inflation
- everything would get much money, but the prices would get up so it wouldn't help at all
- even if the prices wouldn't change, what's the challenge? I play my games to have a challenge of some kind, be it money making or leveling, and I'm not alone.100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.0 -
Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »IRL there's a thing called loans, which don't exist in game. Without loans no service would be "profitable", it's a zero-sum game. At least, in our capitalist world. That is why merchanting IS a zero-sum game.
FACT is, merchanters usually know that if everyone merchanted, this activity would be NULLIFIED. Because it's not productive.
Here's a simpler example, a very simplistic example of merchanting. Note that this isn't even proper merchanting at all, imagine that can be even worse:
There's 1 mil total coins in circulation. You need 100k for all your skills, and have that money, but don't want to get broke so you wait until you have 200k (example). Suppose you sell mats for 200k and buy for 100k. Someone with the mats sold them to you, you lost 100k (so you have 0 now) but gained the mats. You sold the mats then to someone else for 200k.
Now you have 200k, but someone lost 200k and got the mats, and someone else gained 100k and lost his mats. You spend it on skills. You've achieved your goal, but who paid for it? Someone else.
So end result: for your skills SOMEONE ELSE paid the price. SOMEONE ELSE LOST MONEY FOR YOU. Merchanting is like involuntary (or "stupid") DONATIONS from others. Which are never productive.
If person A donates to person B, and person B donates to person A (i.e both merchant), what happens?
NOTHING. One of the two people NEED the other to be "stupid", but not the other way around.
The rich just got richer and the poor poorer. Yep, merchanting is such a productive activity, definitely doesn't leech off other ppl. Which is why EVERYONE can do it, correct? b:avoid /sarcasm
I find it funny how merchanters have this "houlier than thou" attitude when they DEPEND on "stupid" people, or how they call them. Effectively, they NEED stupid people, the very ones who they laugh at. Pathetic.
Merchanting is for the selfish. Sorry, cold hard facts. I'm sick of those trying to justify it as good when all they do, is DEPEND on "stupid people" who DON'T do it. At least have the courtesy to respect such stupid people who finance your selfish activities.
I still don't see what you don't GET from what I said.
If PWI made possible fast levelling by dailies, why not make possible fast CASH by dailies? Think of it as exp/coin ratio. Let's assume before this ratio was x. Now because of BH and no cash daily, the ratio is much higher.
To compensate, add a cash daily. As simple as that.
And no I don't mean a daily that's lazy. I want a challenge, fun, whatever, something that makes you play the game. But for the love of God, make it worthwile and not severly gimped like ANY other ways of making coins. WTH. b:angry
Merchanters don't "leech" off other people. They are intermediaries that purchase goods from one person and provide it to final consumers. It is a win-win situation. The merchanter makes a profit, and the person who bought it, has the satisfaction of whatever he or she bought.
Person A farms the mats because to them, this is a stable way of making money. They sell it to the merchanter (Person
for 100k. The merchanter buys this sum of goods, and then they go and set up their catshop in Archosaur, selling each mat for 200k. Person C comes along and is in need of mats to level up their manufacturing levels. They're too lazy to go farm their own mats so they buy them from Person B.
Economically speaking, did anyone lose anything? No. The time Person A spent farming his mats are justified by the profit he raked in from his sale to person B. The time spent seeking these people and buying these mats is justified by the profit Person B makes by selling them to Person C. The time saved and the manufacturing levels gained by Person C are the rewards for the 200k he spent.
This game would never only have merchanters, because smart merchanters realize opportunities. If there are opportunities to be realized farming mats or harvesting resources, then there is a source of income. That's how smart players work.
Just introducing a cash daily will do nothing but further mess up the economy. Of course, all things with static prices will be more easily purchased, like skills. But that only accounts for a miniscule amount of goods and services in the economy. Things like gear, mounts, fashion, skill books, everything with dynamic prices will experience hyper inflation. That's when your gamers feel like their wealth is diminishing. They're raking in all this money from dailies, but all the things they want to buy is increasing so drastically in prices their money income can't keep up.
That doesn't solve anything. The only thing it allows people to buy are more skills and npc gears, which you shouldn't have any trouble buying anyway because prices never changed.
And one last thing. Exp dailies are optional. If they're making you poor, then the answer should be obvious. Don't do them. I didn't have sufficient income at level 80 to sustain wined BH's and 70k crazy stones every day, so I stopped. This concept shouldn't be hard to grasp at all.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
WarrenWolfy - Sanctuary wrote: »Not really.
Time to place bid for 135 Gold @ 420k: 3 minutes.
Time to buy 150 Tiger Packs: 1 minute.
Time to set up shop selling packs @ 409k: 3 minutes.
# of "dumb **** ppl" (your words, not mine) who buy the packs @ 409k that I paid 386k for: 150.
Profit: 3.5 million for 7 minutes of effort.
# of times this cycle is repeated per day: ~2
ok thats pretty pro. I try to merchant myself. I'm not terrible but im not amazing either. Im curious.. how did u make enough money to buy 150 packs at a time?0 -
Heh... I appreciate the compliment, but in all honesty I suspect we're probably members of the "B-List". b:chuckleKupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »2)The three greatest merchants (Solandri, Michael_dark and WarrenWolfy) never say anything about "stupid people".
The difference is that we're vocal about what we do. In my case it's because I find it much more enjoyable to share knowledge than to hoard it. But meanwhile there are other merchants on Sanctuary whose wealth dwarfs mine. They're keeping quiet, however, to maximize their profits, because knowledge is valuable.
I agree that it should only be played for fun. I happen to find merchanting fun.ZoanoAce - Lost City wrote: »I'm sorry to break up this fiery discussion of economics, business, merchanting, hyper-inflation, coin sinks, who has X trillions in their pockets and soooooooooooo oooooooooooon....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
But I thought this was a game, you know.....a game? not a job or a bulletin board or w/e else.
I think the disagreements are because people are doing things that aren't fun for them, but they're addicted to doing them. That's one of the unfortunate things about many modern video-games: they're deliberately designed to trigger compulsive behaviour and make you feel you need to do certain tasks, even if it means doing stuff you don't enjoy doing.
That, to me, is why people who addicted to grinding, but don't enjoy it, get so upset. They're basically addicts who are angry that the dealer is being stingy with the stuff.
Meanwhile, I actually enjoy grinding, but only in small doses. b:chuckle
The main culprits were: Honey Juice (to get started), Jolly Jones, Battle Pet Packs, Tokens->Oracles, Anniversary Packs, Coral Packs, and now Tiger Packs, with Perfect Stones filling in the gaps. But I'm sure there are plenty of others out there that I'm just not familiar with.XMiniManx - Harshlands wrote: »ok thats pretty pro. I try to merchant myself. I'm not terrible but im not amazing either. Im curious.. how did u make enough money to buy 150 packs at a time?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
PWI Merchanting Guides: warrenwolfy.wordpress.com0 -
apparently this Merchanting ISNT FOR ACTIVE PPL maybe thats y ppl pwer pasr yr lv i mad e achar in less than 1 month and it passed ur lv already cuz i am active u think i hav time to merchant?? and no i dont hav 2 comps or dual cleint so i can hav my alt in west archo like soem ppl do so for ppl who want to reach a goal lv fast...coins SHOULD B RAISED as the difficulty and lv of mobs and quests do...maybe if u went an actually did quests u wil lunderstand0
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