Sage v. Demon QUESTION...not thread <.<

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary

Hi,
This is a mere question - I'm not taking a stance between sage and demon whatsoever.

The background:
Sage masteries = 25% bonus (5% more than demon/regular)
Demon gush = 600 more damage
Demon sandstorm = 1200 more damage

The question:
Does the extra damage actually do more than sage gush/sandstorm, which has the 5% increased damage?

Thanks b:thanks

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary wrote: »

Hi,
This is a mere question - I'm not taking a stance between sage and demon whatsoever.

The background:
Sage masteries = 25% bonus (5% more than demon/regular)
Demon gush = 600 more damage
Demon sandstorm = 1200 more damage

The question:
Does the extra damage actually do more than sage gush/sandstorm, which has the 5% increased damage?

Thanks b:thanks

you wont notice it really at first, but once you start refining your weapon that 5% damage becomes a lot more noticable


EDIT: actually i think my sage gush + water mastery does damage on par with demon gush

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

It depend how high is refined you weapon. I think from +5 you get little more from sage masteries, than +600 gush. With +8 neon purgatory you will gain much more from sage masteries than 600 from gush or 1200 from SS. With nirvana weapon +10 or R8 your damage on all spells will by much more than 600from gush or 1200 sandstorm.
You gain still more and more with better and better weapon.
I have to make new calculation because my old ones didn't calculate with nirvana weapon.

BTW. Can some1 post formula how calculate damage? I cannot find it already anywhere. :-(

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver

i got a +10 neon with 2 75 gems and water mastery. my gush do way more dmg then any other demon wiz with +10 neon

Paimage - Harshlands

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

You should work out numbers for your intended build.

If you just focus on the change, you might think demons get +600 damage on gush and sages get +5% on gush... but demon water mastery increases that +600 damage, so you really get +720 damage from gush and that critical hit chance of course applies to everything including your constant damage add. Meanwhile, of course, sage criticals also apply to their full +25% bonus damage....

And it gets worse because skills combine effects, and demons get some nice channeling bonuses which they can use when their sutra is cooling off.

woot Cholla finally started lvlingb:laugh

And about the thread, the difference in dmg between sage and demon gush r hardly noticeable so...

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Paimage - Harshlands wrote: »

woot Cholla finally started lvlingb:laugh

And about the thread, the difference in dmg between sage and demon gush r hardly noticeable so...

If it for you +1440 more sage damage on SS compare to demon SS nothing. Ok. I don't mind. And I'm not telling about another spells.
This is compare just demon SS and sage SS. Even with added demon damage 1600 is still sage SS higher about 1440 with R8 weapon.

So on GS will be sage damage more roughly 3000 more than demon with end game weapon.
And now image ultimates. ;-)

BTS: I need damage formula because this was just what i remember when I was calculating it.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If it for you +1440 more sage damage on SS compare to demon SS nothing. Ok. I don't mind. And I'm not telling about another spells.
This is compare just demon SS and sage SS. Even with added demon damage 1600 is still sage SS higher about 1440 with R8 weapon.

So on GS will be sage damage more roughly 3000 more than demon with end game weapon.
And now image ultimates. ;-)

BTS: I need damage formula because this was just what i remember when I was calculating it.

the formula is a bit complicated lemme see if i can explain it


base mag(magatk in C window)+25% of base mag + skills damage+25% of skill damage + weapon modifier+25% of wep modifier. I think its something like that.

I remember Kristoph saying that the masteries get factored in for each 3 of those things.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the formula is a bit complicated lemme see if i can explain it


base mag(magatk in C window)+25% of base mag + skills damage+25% of skill damage + weapon modifier+25% of wep modifier. I think its something like that.

I remember Kristoph saying that the masteries get factored in for each 3 of those things.

With your formula and my weapon neon+8 is difference even bigger.
For BIDS is sage damage more than 2653 comparing with demon.
For GS is sage damage more than 1853 comparing with demon.
For SS is sage damage more than 320 comparing with demon.
For Gush is sage damage more than 60 comparing with demon.
I didn't calculate all spell of course. But at all spells is sage damage higher than demon.
I don't have exact numbers because I'm not at home just what I remember.

With R8 or nirvana it would be much higher.

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary

I shall clarify
My current wep is an aquadash +5
I'm referring to a full mag build, no vit added, bare min str.
I am planning to use the aqua in my 9x for now.

Edit: tyvm mumin + mizu for the calculations

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

How much magic attack do you have?

So... ok, this post is going to probably go into too many numbers for most people, and maybe i made a math mistake, but if you purely compare damage per hit, you miss out on some demon advantages.

Let us say, for example, that your magic attack was 13866-13992 and your weapon damage was 2311-2332.

Sage gush does magic attack + 100% weapon damage + 3390.0, and sage water mastery adds +25% damage. That's 24459-24643 damage per hit unsparked, and 44680-45048 damage per damage per hit with sage spark.

Demon gush adds another 600 damage but loses 5% from water mastery, so demons do 24200-24377 damage per hit unsparked and 43612-43966 dph with demon spark.

But that's damage per hit, and ignores critical hit chances and channeling speed. If both wizards had a base 10% critical hit chance and a 40% channeling bonus, and if demon critical hit bonuses work like every bit of evidence suggest they work and if casting time does not get influenced by channeling bonuses then sage gush works out to 16815-16941 dps unsparked and 30718-30970 damage per second triple sparked, where demon gush works out to 16583-16708 dps unsparked, and 35903-36198 dps triple sparked, but demons also have the option of using wellspring quaff for 18952-19094 damage per second for 15 seconds (you can compare this with 18801-18946 damage per second for 9 seconds for a sage using single spark, and keep in mind that wellspring quaff is almost invisible).

Of course damage per second on gush is only part of the picture, because of cooldowns, but even with high refines, demons have some dps advantages (and first hit advantages, and first crit probabilities) over sages, and [for example] its not like demon pyrogram will be slower than sage pyrogram...

And, yes, I know... tl;dr...

b:beatup

But we here calculating just difference between sage mastries and demon attack in raw numbers. I calculated just damage using Mizuoni's formula.( I don't know if it's right).Sage also can use wellspring quaff. And another sage spells. But this is not thread who is better, just facts in numbers how much is sage damage greater thanks to masteries than demon. Nothing else.b:thanks

Scorched_Sky - Sanctuary

Wow didn't expect you all to go all out o_o...tyvm all!
Me thinks the wiz section can overtake the archer section in math at this rate b:victory

Ursa - Dreamweaver

u can jump a quest here and there, by the time you're 90+ that harpy quest is not relevant

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

Oops, I forgot that sage wellspring quaff also increases dph (and thus dps). With sage wellspring quaff, my hypothetical wizard would be doing 18259-18399 dps.

In simple terms, when both have uber weapons with lots of refines, sage has higher damage per hit than demon but demon is faster than sage and gets higher damage per second (and higher mana costs).

If I might draw a crude analogy: sage wizards are like axe blademasters and demon wizards are like fist blademasters. Both can be good but they have different roles.

[I still have not choosen which I will be, though I have a soft spot for demons. But demons also get a quest to kill harpy wraith, and I am not sure if I like that idea or not.]

u can add that too when sage dont use wq and use often 3rd spark XD
or if both use 3rd spark then demon faster but sage more dmg/hit and 25% absorb then u can add the demon got few faster skill and sage got few chi gainer or less spark cost skill, overall both good but i prefer the dmg per hit because i got archer if i want dmg/sec.

destroyerofsome

I don't believe you should base cultis on mana cost... mages aren't even a PvE class -_-
Yes, with a high refined weapon sage masteries will add more damage than their demon skill add-on counterparts.

Shadowvzs - Lost City

Cholla - Harshlands wrote: »

Demon fast channeling builds chi also (but costs mana). And when they get fast enough they are really fast...

And demon stuns are sort of like absorb (and sort of not).

But maybe blademasters do faster dmg/sec than archers? I mean nowadays they do not need rank top to hit 5 attacks per second...

I am still undecided, between sage and demon, that BIDS cancel thing has me leaning slightly towards sage and that instant channelling things has me leaning slightly towards demon.

i bm, but at boss my sharp not bad opener before i switch to fist XD

sage got faster stone rain too and u can count the chi gainer skill then still sage more chi, for demon faster speeed and chi u must use/waste atleast 1 spark else sage do more often spark burst. ok the stone barrier and dmg addon not bad till u dont really got end game eq

I don't believe you should base cultis on mana cost...

no, faster casting=>more skill/time=>more mana cost

destroyerofsome

Shadowvzs - Lost City wrote: »

i bm, but at boss my sharp not bad opener before i switch to fist XD

sage got faster stone rain too and u can count the chi gainer skill then still sage more chi, for demon faster speeed and chi u must use/waste atleast 1 spark else sage do more often spark burst. ok the stone barrier and dmg addon not bad till u dont really got end game eq


no, faster casting=>more skill/time=>more mana cost

^I know. But why are people mentioning it like it's an important thing.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

All of this talk of worrying about building chi is nullified when you factor in that by the time a sage/demon wiz reaches their sage/demon levels they should have cloud erupt on their genie. There's little reason not to.

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

i dont have cloud eruption because as a sage wiz i have 399 chi about 95% of the time. Why give myself more chi when im trying to get rid of the 399 i have b:angryb:surrender

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

i dont have cloud eruption because as a sage wiz i have 399 chi about 95% of the time. Why give myself more chi when im trying to get rid of the 399 i have b:angryb:surrender

That 50 chi every 60 seconds might not be enough, especially if there's a situation where you repeatedly get knocked out of DB and need to bring it back up. Nextly, there's no way to do a sage/demon spark + ultis without cloud (excluding apoth, which would be a complete waste).

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That 50 chi every 60 seconds might not be enough, especially if there's a situation where you repeatedly get knocked out of DB and need to bring it back up. Nextly, there's no way to do a sage/demon spark + ultis without cloud (excluding apoth, which would be a complete waste).

why would i triple spark ulti? Thats a complete waste if the ulti one shots them itself .

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

why would i triple spark ulti? Thats a complete waste if the ulti one shots them itself .

See here..

Ursa - Dreamweaver

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That 50 chi every 60 seconds might not be enough, especially if there's a situation where you repeatedly get knocked out of DB and need to bring it back up. Nextly, there's no way to do a sage/demon spark + ultis without cloud (excluding apoth, which would be a complete waste).

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

See here..

You're a cleric , but at 9x you don't have any excuse for not knowing this, but ok, let me explain in a little detail how wizards work (in FC and in general):
50chi every 60 secons.
Pyro+gush combo at every mob that's not dead in AoE (Those Metal guardians, dunno what their name is). Sage Pyro has a 20% chance to give you 45 chi. Pyro/gush is anyway the fastest DPS combo (well WoP has a place there every 4th hit). Using nukes on bosses is a waste of time and mana and you lose in the long run because of additional dmg that comes from spam skill+ the fact that you give more chances to Pyro to give you 45 chi.
Factor that in, and in a 1 minute fight, I'm telling you this as a Sage wizard, you gain at least 2.5 sparks. If you start from full spark, in a minute span you can easily spark once more and have about other 2 sparks built already by the time Master Li cooldown is over.

Now, I don't know what wizards and BMs are you running with, but DB should not be knocked out...ever. And if that happens, wizards have another two AoEs that they can use without any sparks, and if there are 2 sparks an ulti is always in place.

And FYI, yes, there is a way to do tripple spark ulti without cloud: From full chi - triple spark -> master Li -> Chi pot (or veno spark) - ulti.
Tripple spark ulti is something nice for the numbers, but sooooooooo NOT effective. I can drop the same bunch of mobs just using Frenzy+Sage BIDS/BT, and depending on mobs it does about 40k+ damage on normal hits and 100k on crits.

/lecture

Shadowvzs - Lost City

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

All of this talk of worrying about building chi is nullified when you factor in that by the time a sage/demon wiz reaches their sage/demon levels they should have cloud erupt on their genie. There's little reason not to.

u must wait till genie blue bar recovery and -1 slot

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You're a cleric , but at 9x you don't have any excuse for not knowing this, but ok, let me explain in a little detail how wizards work (in FC and in general):
50chi every 60 secons.
Pyro+gush combo at every mob that's not dead in AoE (Those Metal guardians, dunno what their name is). Sage Pyro has a 20% chance to give you 45 chi. Pyro/gush is anyway the fastest DPS combo (well WoP has a place there every 4th hit). Using nukes on bosses is a waste of time and mana and you lose in the long run because of additional dmg that comes from spam skill+ the fact that you give more chances to Pyro to give you 45 chi.
Factor that in, and in a 1 minute fight, I'm telling you this as a Sage wizard, you gain at least 2.5 sparks. If you start from full spark, in a minute span you can easily spark once more and have about other 2 sparks built already by the time Master Li cooldown is over.

I rarely use pyro/gush combo throughout most of FF. Maybe on the shades when everything is dead, however..

Now, I don't know what wizards and BMs are you running with, but DB should not be knocked out...ever. And if that happens, wizards have another two AoEs that they can use without any sparks, and if there are 2 sparks an ulti is always in place.

Bishops, dread, dragoons.. they knock you out of db and you cannot stun dragoons nor predict when Dread will sleep you or when a bishop aoe spell will knock you out of it. Therefore, you need to be able to put it back up. Simple.

And FYI, yes, there is a way to do tripple spark ulti without cloud: From full chi - triple spark -> master Li -> Chi pot (or veno spark) - ulti.

Apoth was mentioned. You just didn't read. However, who the hell relies on a veno to spark them? They spark the clerics, or a barb, or a bm. The wiz or archer really shouldn't be.

Tripple spark ulti is something nice for the numbers, but sooooooooo NOT effective. I can drop the same bunch of mobs just using Frenzy+Sage BIDS/BT, and depending on mobs it does about 40k+ damage on normal hits and 100k on crits.
/lecture

However, a good number of the mobs that matter don't have 40K hp, so those "numbers" are nice to have, and when they pre-empt a boss, which you can build more chi on, then losing all of your chi and having a better chance of one shotting them is certainly a good thing -- also, who the hell talked about dropping nukes/ultis on bosses? You aren't really teaching me anything at all, just showing an inability to read and making up weird ****. Nothing to learn from that. /lectures back

Ursa - Dreamweaver

I don't want to teach you how to play your wizard in FC, not my plan, not my intention. You look like you can fail pretty well on yourself.

The rest of your blah-blah is just pointing out the obvious and a waste of time. Go in FC and be in a mission to drop tripple spark ultis. You're going to help your squad immensely.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I don't want to teach you how to play your wizard in FC, not my plan, not my intention. You look like you can fail pretty well on yourself.

The rest of your blah-blah is just pointing out the obvious and a waste of time. Go in FC and be in a mission to drop tripple spark ultis. You're going to help your squad immensely.

Hey, how's that sucking at arguments thing going? Great it looks like. In a FF now. Enjoy. b:pleased

Ursa - Dreamweaver

u too. Leaching is always nice when u can afford it.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

True, especially when the wiz is the one directing the squad. Total fail. Remember on the last page when you actually tried to make an argument and failed, then turned the topic into personal insults due to being full of **** and pretending you know more than you actually do? Good times. Enjoy.

Ursa - Dreamweaver

your issues are not my concern, regardless of being medical or game related.

Too bad this forum doesn't have a BL option

Cosoc - Sanctuary

hi scor XD b:victory

Adroit - Lost City

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

True, especially when the wiz is the one directing the squad. Total fail. Remember on the last page when you actually tried to make an argument and failed, then turned the topic into personal insults due to being full of **** and pretending you know more than you actually do? Good times. Enjoy.

I've read a few of your posts, it is blatantly obvious you have NO idea what you are talking about. This would be a good time to stop talking. Remember..

It is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.