Pet Aggro Question?

DeadlyBliss - Harshlands

ok so im a lvl 9 veno with unused points so far cuz i dont wanan mess up my build, i like the idea of la survivabilty, but pure arcane sounds appealing for the fast killing however my fear is the pet aggro, im goin to have a glacial walker and max bash on it eventually, but just how bad is the aggro stealing of pure arcane as u get paseed 4x or so? is it bad or just once in a while so i wont really have to worry bout it, thx.

kenlee

you can steal agro with any build, being that LA or AA (or HA at later lvls). once you do a crit as LA you might steal agro, AA can crit too once in a blue moon but you can steal agro while pet is on the way to mob. tho... its harder to steal agro from golems than herc. if you manage to steal agro from your pet at lower lvls you will also learn how to not steal it... dont throw 2 spell on mob before pet reaching it or things like that. with herc is another story, i can steal agro quick even after i let him do the first hit (bash)

tweakz

So you steal aggro on grind mobs: you kill them before they reach you anyway. (that's how wizzies can do it)

So you steal aggro on bosses: you have skills like soul degen, amp, myriad, myriad, lending hand, you could use instead.

I often steal aggro from my Nix, it doesn't mean I don't benefit from more Mag.

I often hear venos claim they wish they could use a Nix in an instance. I'm happy out DD'ing every other class as it is on bosses with the survivability of a Nix.

LA and Vit-Arcane builds are not for PvE and non cash shoppers. In PvE it's good to know when you're stealing aggro and knowing that you can kill it before it reaches you. Furthermore if you're successful (not a veno cause you heard it's easy coin) : you'll be entering OHT maps with many [?] mobs . These mobs can be 1-2-3 hit kills with most pets which can easily keep aggro for that amount of time.

If I was vit arcane, I probably wouldn't have the FB89 Trophy Mode cape (which would be great for PvP). -Just an example of how being great at PvE could help make you great at PvP.

Learning to adapt - Veno's have the ultimate experience when it comes to learning the rules of Aggro.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver

Aggro starts to be a problem high 40s, mid 50s.

Solution is to get a second bash-like skill.

If you've got two aggro skills and you remembr to fire them constantly, it becomes pretty hard to steal aggro again for a great many levels.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

I'm happy out DD'ing every other class as it is on bosses .

fist bm, wizard, archer all easily out damage silly little animal tail people.

If I was vit arcane, I probably wouldn't have the FB89 Trophy Mode cape

any good party can get gold medals, has nothing to do with pure mag vs vit arcane.

Esuna - Raging Tide

DeadlyBliss - Harshlands wrote: »

ok so im a lvl 9 veno with unused points so far cuz i dont wanan mess up my build, i like the idea of la survivabilty, but pure arcane sounds appealing for the fast killing however my fear is the pet aggro, im goin to have a glacial walker and max bash on it eventually, but just how bad is the aggro stealing of pure arcane as u get paseed 4x or so? is it bad or just once in a while so i wont really have to worry bout it, thx.

You'll usually steal aggro from any tanker pets unless you let them smack the mobs around for quite a while. If you can use a Nix/Sawfly that's your level on the mobs you're fighting, you're a lot less likely to steal aggro due to their nice DPS+Flesh Ream. Bash isn't that great on normal monsters.

kenlee

lol bash is best agro skill, flesh has longer cooldown...

Esuna - Raging Tide

kenlee wrote: »

lol bash is best agro skill, flesh has longer cooldown...

If we're talking about normal map monster killing, it doesn't matter, monster will or is supposed to be dead before you get a chance to cast it that many times. A Sawfly/Nix should easily hold aggro with their regular attacks and Flesh Ream active because of the sheer damage. On tanking pets, yeah Bash.

Learn2read please.

kenlee

m talking about normal mobs too. both skills keep agro, none of them is better but while your flesh ream is on cooldown i can kill next mob with my bash ready
didnt you put me on your ignore list because you couldnt handle the heat?

tweakz

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

fist bm, wizard, archer all easily out damage silly little animal tail people.

You failed to show this in numbers, so you refer to some silly screen shots and ambiguity. Not every wiz is a pure mag.

any good party can get gold medals, has nothing to do with pure mag vs vit arcane.

Wiz used Mountain's Seize, sage/demon stats:

Range 30.0meters
Channel 5.0 seconds
Cast 1.4 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds

Slams the target
and all enemies 12.0 meters around it dealing Earth damage
equal to base magic attack plus500% of weapon damage plus 12149.0.
Has a 95% chance to stun all enemies for 6.0 seconds.

Which is 5s to cast. In about the same time Veno can pull off 3 AoEs.

Sage Parasitic Nova:

Channel 3.0 seconds
Cast 1.2 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation Master of Harmony
Summon a toxic parasite array to attack the target and all enemies in a
12.0 meter radius around the target. Inflicts Wood damage equal
to base magic damage plus 300% of weapon damage plus 6606.0.
Has a 67% chance to make them chaotic for 8.0 seconds, in which
they are unable to move or attack.

Sage Noxious Gas:

Channel 2.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 6.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation Aware of the Myriad
A large disease ridden toxic parasite attacks the target causing it
and all enemies 9.0 meters around it to suffer Wood damage
equal to base magic damage plus 200% of weapon damage plus
2296.0. Enemies will also suffer 2296.0 Wood damage
over 9 seconds.

Myriad Rainbow:

Pepper the air with scarabs.
All targets in range of 15 meters have a chance to be affected by various status ailments.
Bleed: 4,500 physical damage over time.
Poison: 4,500 Wood damage over time.
Armor break: Physical defense reduced by 100%.
Mind break: Magic defense reduced by 100%.
Lasts 9 seconds.

Go back to posting screen shots lol.

MANray_ - Sanctuary

With your main attack skill maxed you shouldn't have any trouble with regular mobs. The main problem is lower level elites (as in BH) which even using multiple pet skill attacks on you'll have to time use of caster skills with.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Another problem with BH is the mobs are lower level than you. Usually when doing TT or FBs, the mobs are higher level than you so your damage is reduced. Pets ignore level-based damage reduction though. So the pet does relatively more damage than you do.

In BH, the mobs are lower level, so you are not getting any damage reduction. Consequently, the pet does not have a damage advantage, and it's easier for you to pull off aggro. Against regular mobs (which are your level or lower), most people don't run into this because the mob does so quickly the pet's initial Bash shields them from this effect.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

You failed to show this in numbers, so you refer to some silly screen shots and ambiguity. Not every wiz is a pure mag.



Wiz used Mountain's Seize, sage/demon stats:



Which is 5s to cast. In about the same time Veno can pull off 3 AoEs.

Sage Parasitic Nova:


Sage Noxious Gas:


Myriad Rainbow:


Go back to posting screen shots lol.

you've posted no numbers what so ever either, you've labeled the descriptions of 3 skills which is far from proof enough. you know, no proof is ever good enough for you, as you keep childish vendettas in place to blind you from reality. i could go into an elaborate dps mathematics and you'd still call me wrong.

hell, melee fox can even out damage you on a properly built HA veno... veno magic is nothing compared to some of the other classes damage output.

tweakz

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

you've posted no numbers what so ever either, you've labeled the descriptions of 3 skills which is far from proof enough. you know, no proof is ever good enough for you, as you keep childish vendettas in place to blind you from reality. i could go into an elaborate dps mathematics and you'd still call me wrong.

hell, melee fox can even out damage you on a properly built HA veno... veno magic is nothing compared to some of the other classes damage output.

back it up or ****. I provide data, you just troll.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

back it up or ****. I provide data, you just troll.

skill descriptions arent data, try again.

tweakz

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

skill descriptions arent data, try again.

mentally handicapped?

Serinregis - Lost City

tweakz wrote: »

You failed to show this in numbers, so you refer to some silly screen shots and ambiguity. Not every wiz is a pure mag.



Wiz used Mountain's Seize, sage/demon stats:



Which is 5s to cast. In about the same time Veno can pull off 3 AoEs.

Sage Parasitic Nova:


Sage Noxious Gas:


Myriad Rainbow:


Go back to posting screen shots lol.

though mountain seize has a 5 sec channeling time, its damage FAR outdamages parasitic nova, especially considering that mages get more magic attack per magic than venos do.

And as for noxious gas, mages have their divine pyrogram which already damages near the level of parasitic nova with its 300% weapon damage + 4903, and they also have glacial snare, with the same channeling time as noxious gas, and its damage is also near nova level with 300% weapon damage + 6171. b:surrender
Though of course, noxious gas's perk is that its an aoe.


not saying that veno magic is completely under powered of course, but our magic is more made for debuffing than raw damage imo.

and magic has no effect on myriad rainbow.

and to answer the original question, pure magic is a good way to level, and you can most of the time kill an enemy before it reaches you (when you lose aggro), but I do recommend some vit, as some bosses have nasty aoe attacks, both physical and magical.

FoxyCleo - Raging Tide

Why would a Veno cast enough to outaggro their pet on normal mobs?
After 50ish, you don't spam Venomous alot anymore, maybe 2 per mob, and that shouldn't be a problem.
Near the end of a BH period, I don't cast at all anymore. Casting ASAP would inevitably draw aggro, casting at 80% would overkill mobs in a BH.

tweakz

Serinregis - Lost City wrote: »

though mountain seize has a 5 sec channeling time, its damage FAR outdamages parasitic nova, especially considering that mages get more magic attack per magic than venos do.

And as for noxious gas, mages have their divine pyrogram which already damages near the level of parasitic nova with its 300% weapon damage + 4903, and they also have glacial snare, with the same channeling time as noxious gas, and its damage is also near nova level with 300% weapon damage + 6171. b:surrender
Though of course, noxious gas's perk is that its an aoe.


not saying that veno magic is completely under powered of course, but our magic is more made for debuffing than raw damage imo.

and magic has no effect on myriad rainbow.

and to answer the original question, pure magic is a good way to level, and you can most of the time kill an enemy before it reaches you (when you lose aggro), but I do recommend some vit, as some bosses have nasty aoe attacks, both physical and magical.

Why do people not get it? In the time it takes a wiz to channel that one spell, and before they can even launch another one, we've been able to cast 3 that when combined do comparable damage (and by that time in Trophy Mode most of what was AoE'd should be dead). Do we say BM's do less DPS because they hit much lighter (though faster)? Divine Pyrogram is yet another example of a long channel time skill that should do more damage per hit since it takes so long. You could cite Essential Sutra, but then you're giving up Sparks and will be burning MP faster than if you just triple sparked. I never said we out damaged Wiz's but our magic dps is comparable in many common scenarios. A bunch of vit arcane venos running around with tanker equips don't represent our potential as DD. Venos aren't gimped at PvP and should have no problem acquiring decent gear and skills to keep them alive or out of range through AoEs. A TT90 green set would give me much more survivability than what I'm using but I don't need more survivability for anything other than PvP. We're also far from the only class with debuffs.

Serinregis - Lost City

tweakz wrote: »

Why do people not get it? In the time it takes a wiz to channel that one spell, and before they can even launch another one, we've been able to cast 3 that when combined do comparable damage (and by that time in Trophy Mode most of what was AoE'd should be dead). Do we say BM's do less DPS because they hit much lighter (though faster)? Divine Pyrogram is yet another example of a long channel time skill that should do more damage per hit since it takes so long. You could cite Essential Sutra, but then you're giving up Sparks and will be burning MP faster than if you just triple sparked. I never said we out damaged Wiz's but our magic dps is comparable in many common scenarios. A bunch of vit arcane venos running around with tanker equips don't represent our potential as DD. Venos aren't gimped at PvP and should have no problem acquiring decent gear and skills to keep them alive or out of range through AoEs. A TT90 green set would give me much more survivability than what I'm using but I don't need more survivability for anything other than PvP. We're also far from the only class with debuffs.

Okay you got me there b:laugh, good point.

But, I still think it's kinda situational, because venos can out-DPS mages assuming that mages use their 5 second cast skills, but when blasting spells at single targets, mages have some pretty comparable spam skills (ie. pryogram, gush, and will of the phoenix), and if you get into noxious gas, mages have stone rain, glacial spike, and sandstorm (though these 3 skills, admittedly, do have longer total casting time).

kenlee

dont forget undine strike also. every class with big numbers of % weapon damage in skills get big boost with good weapon or huge atk speed and crit is also a big bonus.
i've played only pvp servers and end game archers/wiz outdamage by far venos when it comes to pvp and pve too. fist bm or barb, both demon are deadly too. 5k hits from archers or wiz on me is like normal

tweakz

Serinregis - Lost City wrote: »

But, I still think it's kinda situational, because venos can out-DPS mages assuming that mages use their 5 second cast skills, but when blasting spells at single targets, mages have some pretty comparable spam skills (ie. pryogram, gush, and will of the phoenix), and if you get into noxious gas, mages have stone rain, glacial spike, and sandstorm (though these 3 skills, admittedly, do have longer total casting time).

Did I not say comparable?

kenlee wrote: »

dont forget undine strike also. every class with big numbers of % weapon damage in skills get big boost with good weapon or huge atk speed and crit is also a big bonus.
i've played only pvp servers and end game archers/wiz outdamage by far venos when it comes to pvp and pve too. fist bm or barb, both demon are deadly too. 5k hits from archers or wiz on me is like normal

I mentioned Undine Strike. 1s to channel, .5 to cast. Reduces element defense by 60% for primarily wiz attacks. In PvE it rarely seems worth using. When I used my wiz in Eden with my Herc tanking, I noticed Wiz would get aggro using Undine while not really killing noticeably faster over all. In couldn't see how it was worth the 600MP hit. In PvP, it helps to be in a squad with another Wiz. Myriad Rainbow is 0s to channel / cast (instant) - chance to reduce mag and phys def by 100% while possibly causing mag dmg as well.

What I don't see is anyone showing any math to support their claims. We wield the same weapons as Wizards. We have the same matk for the same mag stat. Our dps ratio to theirs isn't going to be changed by dmg multipliers, weapon refines, imbues, etc, unless you can maybe show that one predominately depends more on matk than the other.

kenlee

venos dont get same magic atk as wiz/psy/clerics, venos get slightly less. ive seen many times wiz 1 shoting any class with alot more damage over their max hp, you rarely see venos with same equipment doing the same. this is too much for a post, you have to read the other classes forums too. anyway, over wiz there are demon fist bm and barb that outdamage any class in game in terms of dps

_Leiian_ - Heavens Tear

venos...
venos hit less than wiz and psy and cleric with one skill.
but we can debuff, use a pet and so on.
I think u've to know that with a legendary pet, a veno can do what all other classes couldnt do.
And then...
on an earth (non?lvl) boss, sparking and skilling as fast as we can, we can steal aggro off all other classes.
Remember, our skills are fast, not op as other mag classes' skills, but we can steal aggro off everyone on earth mobs without critting u.u
and then, atm (I'm not sure of this, but someone said this to me) the dmg record on a single skill in rb/gv is of a veno.
A pure mag could be a very good DD.
For sure I dont think we could oneshot in pvp as wizs and archers do, but, Idk.
but with -40% channelling we can 2shot while a wiz is still casting.
wizzies go for crit, venos for channelling, I think.
Cuz wizzies, especially sage wizzies in endgame, need more and more crit.
Venos need always a lot of -chan, for soloing what they wanna, so, dont worry ^^
we just have to cast more skills in less time.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver

tweakz, if your wizard is using mountain's seize without using sutra first, he's doing something wrong. Also, most half decent wizards would use dragons breath, which far out-damages anything a veno can do.

Serinregis - Lost City

tweakz wrote: »

Did I not say comparable?

I meant comparable in terms of being able to be spammed, when spammed, wiz skills can out damage our skills when compared one-to-one.

And we do not have the same matk for the same amount of magic.
Proof:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=82f58f1efbbe52ea
And
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9d0d7bed5d4652a7

A small difference that does not seem to grow with refine rate, but a difference nonetheless.

And as for the math of the our equivalent skills: (spamming ones)
Venomancers:
Venomous Scarab: base + 100% + 966, total cast time: 2.5 seconds, cooldown: 1 second
Ironwood Scarab: base + 300% + 1328, total cast time: 2.3 seconds, cooldown: 8 seconds
Lucky Scarab: base + 100% + 3417, total cast time: 2.3 seconds, cooldown: 12 seconds
Wizards:
Pyrogram: base + 100% + 1380, total cast time: 2.3 seconds, cooldown: 3 seconds
Gush: base + 100% + 1373, total cast time: 2.0 seconds, cooldown: 3 seconds
Will of the phoenix: base + 100% + 3535 total cast time: 2.0 seconds, cooldown: 8 seconds

so they have, imo, equal spamming skills, but wizards have the superior damage, the odd man out being ironwood scarab.

As for longer channeling spells:
Venos:
Noxious Gas: base + 200% + 1501 + 1501 over 9 seconds, total cast time: 3.3 seconds, cooldown: 6 seconds
Wizards:
Stone Rain: base + 200% + 2119, total cast time: 3.4 seconds, cooldown: 6 seconds
Sand Storm: base + 300% + 4288, total cast time: 4 seconds, cooldown: 6 seconds
Glacial Snare: base + 300% + 4880, total cast time: 4.3 seconds, cooldown: 15 seconds
Divine Pyrogram: base + 300% + 2995, total cast time: 4 seconds, cooldown: 3 seconds

Even longer channeling spells:
Venomancers:
Parasitic Nova: base + 300% + 4565, total cast time: 4.2 seconds, cooldown: 30 seconds
Wizards:
Blade Tempest: base + 200% +3860 + 200% + 3860, total cast time: 5.8 seconds, cooldown: 30 seconds
Black Ice Dragon Strike: base + 500% + 9649, total cast time: 5.6 seconds, cooldown: 30 seconds
Mountain Seize: base + 500% + 8400, total cast time: 6.4 seconds, cooldown: 30 seconds

So the judgment that I have passed with these stats is that venos can match wizards in damage of spamming skills (only with the inclusion of ironwood and a decent end-game weapon), but wizards outshine venomancers damage by far in longer channeling spells, even considering that venomancers have lower channeling time.
Even when comparing similar cast time spells (parasitic nova and glacial snare) you can see that wizards can outdamage venos, even if it is by a small amount.

tweakz

Serinregis - Lost City wrote: »

I meant comparable in terms of being able to be spammed, when spammed, wiz skills can out damage our skills when compared one-to-one.

And we do not have the same matk for the same amount of magic.
Proof:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=82f58f1efbbe52ea
And
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9d0d7bed5d4652a7

You're right. I reached that assumption using the same site, which didn't seem to change switching between the two at the time.

So the judgment that I have passed with these stats is that venos can match wizards in damage of spamming skills (only with the inclusion of ironwood and a decent end-game weapon), but wizards outshine venomancers damage by far in longer channeling spells, even considering that venomancers have lower channeling time.
Even when comparing similar cast time spells (parasitic nova and glacial snare) you can see that wizards can outdamage venos, even if it is by a small amount.

I never said they didn't by a small amount. What's being argued is that Veno Mag dps is laughable, a joke compared to wiz, etc which I know to be wrong.

Serinregis - Lost City

tweakz wrote: »

You're right. I reached that assumption using the same site, which didn't seem to change switching between the two at the time.




I never said they didn't by a small amount. What's being argued is that Veno Mag dps is laughable, a joke compared to wiz, etc which I know to be wrong.

Ah Okay, I see b:laugh

I really didn't think much of the difference before, just assumed that veno should not be used for DD'ing, since I loved high hp b:cute, but yeah, venomancers do indeed have comparable DPS, just that wizards completely dominate in spike damage because of their ultis b:shocked