Foxform DPS/Damage

Rillien - Heavens Tear

So I have a LA veno at the moment that I plan on restatting to heavy [LA only for the cheapness of gear and stat points until lvls 80-90. I want to focus on the fox side of the skilltree [obviously I'm leveling up human skills like ironwood too, I just like the idea of using fox for tanking/combat/PvP more].

But I have a few questions that maybe heavy venos can answer.

What sort of weapons are ideal? I know patakas have the higher physical attack, and there are a few I think with +patk as a stat, but I hate the lowered attack speed on them, and was thinking going for a magical sword? How is the patk on glaives?

Should a foxform veno ideally be skill spamming or relying on regular hits? I was thinking as LA i could stack a little bit of -int gear rather than the -chan, and with the pretty fast attack of magic swords, get a decent speed going. But I feel like my normal attacks are too weak for venos to be like fist BMs, based on DPS. The skills have sorta fast channel and do a bit more damage. Does this change at endgame? Which route optimizes damage?

What rings are you using? I was thinking of getting at least 1 Misty ring for the accuracy, but is that enough combined with foxform +acc boost? Is it smart to use magic rings at all or is it simply a matter of finding things that can give you enough stats. Is +crit a priority at all?

Whew...sorry for the mass of questions and I hope I don't sound too ignorant. I'm having a lot of fun with veno so far...constructive help would be appreciated.

Gasoline - Lost City

Even full heavy venos dont pvp in fox form, its kinda autofail dmg b:surrender.

You use fox form to curse the target, not to do dmg...because even if you go full strength build with a +12 pataka you wont be able to out damage anyones hp-charm with the fox form skills or the fox form auto attacks. Only veno fox skill that does decent dmg is Maleficent Crush on squishy robes - dunno about other venos but i rather use Parasite Nova if i have 2 sparks since it both paralyzes and amps target and does more dmg.

Beside the fact that foxform skills tickle, magic naturally does higher dmg than phy skills in pvp if you look at the game in general. As veno you get the option to choose between magic and physical dmg...so pick the one that does more dmg <.<

Foxform is for amp, purge, crush vigor, myriad rainbows, Soul Degen for sage, seal/stun or what ever you wanna frustrate your opponent with. Foxform is also obv for defense if you're getting ganked, and for demon if you wanna run fast ^^

I guess fighting in foxform has some advantages for pve tho. Its pretty damn cheap to grind if you're using foxform, specially if you have a nix, since you use no mp at all pretty much. You can also tank phy bosses in fox form i guess if you have decent hp, but i rather use my herc for that <.<

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What sort of weapons are ideal? I know patakas have the higher physical attack, and there are a few I think with +patk as a stat, but I hate the lowered attack speed on them, and was thinking going for a magical sword? How is the patk on glaives?

Quoting myself from this thread:

All 4 weapon types are availabe as TT99, TT100, and nirvana, so you can do a side-by-side comparison of their base stats. If you do that, you'll notice the following patterns:

Magic attack:
All have the same average damage.
wand: range +/- 1%
m.sword: range +/- 10%
glaive: range +/- 20%
pataka: range +/- 30%

Physical attack:
Average damage varies, comparisons use m.sword as 100%.
m.sword: average damage 100%, range +/- 20%
glaive: average damage: 94.5%, range +/- 15%
pataka: average damage: 104%, range +/- 10% (unadjusted for slower attack rate)
pataka: average damage: 83.4%, range +/- 10% (adjusted for slower attack rate)
wand: 77.8%, range +/- 10%

So for melee damage, you really want a sword or a glaive. You might want a pataka if you're arcane or a lightweight LA build, and all the melee damage you do is from spamming skills like Leech and Mist. Skills ignore weapon speed, so the pataka's high base damage will shine through when using skills. But if you're just doing regular attacks, the pataka's slower attack speed cripples it and the magic sword is the way to go.

Should a foxform veno ideally be skill spamming or relying on regular hits? I was thinking as LA i could stack a little bit of -int gear rather than the -chan, and with the pretty fast attack of magic swords, get a decent speed going. But I feel like my normal attacks are too weak for venos to be like fist BMs, based on DPS. The skills have sorta fast channel and do a bit more damage. Does this change at endgame? Which route optimizes damage?

It depends on your equipment and str. I had to put together a spreadsheet to figure this out. I found that with TT weapons refined to +2 or +3, at around 200 str you start to do more damage from just regular hits. If you want, post your weapon type, p.atk, channeling, and -interval and I can toss it into my spreadsheet and tell you what your DPS is for regular melee vs. the different fox skills at level 10 or Sage.

What rings are you using? I was thinking of getting at least 1 Misty ring for the accuracy, but is that enough combined with foxform +acc boost? Is it smart to use magic rings at all or is it simply a matter of finding things that can give you enough stats. Is +crit a priority at all?

Don't bother with a Misty. I got one for testing. It's +50% accuracy is off your base accuracy. Level 10 Fox form gives you +200% accuracy. So with a Misty equipped, you end up with +250% accuracy.

e.g. If you have 400 base accuracy, a misty ring would raise that to 600 in human form, which is pretty substantial. But fox form raises it to 1200, and fox form + misty gives 1400. The improvement from the ring is almost negligible. The improvement is even smaller, relatively, if you've got Sage fox form.

I ended up finding some good 3-star rings with multiple +attack modifiers. The level 88 3-star rings are a base 77 p.atk. The two I have give +28 and +21 p.atk (+126 total) and +24 and +18 p.atk (+119 total). A Misty only has +104 p.atk and costs substantially more. I also have backup rings with +stat mods in case I need them to wear my heavy armor.

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

I guess fighting in foxform has some advantages for pve tho. Its pretty damn cheap to grind if you're using foxform, specially if you have a nix, since you use no mp at all pretty much. You can also tank phy bosses in fox form i guess if you have decent hp, but i rather use my herc for that <.<

I can't speak for PvP. But I'm very happy with my heavy fox build for PvE. I do substantially more DPS with melee than with spells. Unbuffed, I have to take off my -interval sleeves and remove one might ring to avoid stealing aggro from hercs. If I have the barb attack buff, I have to use two magic rings to avoid stealing aggro from hercs. This is despite me starting off each fight in BH or TT with Soul Degen and Amp, so the herc is getting about a 5 sec head start on me.

In my max damage config (two might rings and interval sleeves), my unsparked melee DPS is about 5% higher than if I were somehow able to spam Sage Ironwood constantly, 10% higher than if I were able to spam Sage Lucky constantly, and a whopping 47% higher than if I spam Sage Venomous constantly.

Add in the sparks and there's no comparison. I currently build up 3 sparks in about 43 sec w/ Sage skill. Triple spark lasts 15 sec, so I can stay triple sparked roughly 33% of the time. I regularly steal aggro from barbs and wizards if I'm not careful (haven't grouped with many archers lately). If a friend applies Sage Ironwood, I Amp, triple spark, and apply Extreme Poison, I see a string of 23 6k-10k hits scroll by at 1.54x per second, with a few crits thrown in for good measure.

If Myriad's armor break lands, I see a long string of 10k-15k hits scroll by. My best crit has been 26k from a triple sparked regular melee attack. Theoretically, my max regular melee hit (Amp, Extreme Poison, triple spark, armor break, barb buffs) should be 15.6k. Level 92 with a +5 Requiem Blade, sapphire shards. I am about 2/3rds of the way to a Beamhoof Slicer, and I'm actually a little worried how I'm going to deal with aggro once I get it.

xylae

Solandri, just wondering, are you using HA or LA, and if you use HA, how do you manage to keep a decent magical weapon ?

Solandri - Heavens Tear

xylae wrote: »

Solandri, just wondering, are you using HA or LA, and if you use HA, how do you manage to keep a decent magical weapon ?

Heavy with a lot of +stat gear. Here's the outfit I normally wear right now, unbuffed. Just barely not enough melee damage to steal aggro from my herc, -9% channel which makes healing and Amping noticeably quicker, and a balanced mix of mdef and pdef:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=cb4f9260bcfd4382

Here's what I'm working towards for level 93, in a max melee damage config, unbuffed. I'm still looking for a Love Up and Down tome, but those always seem to come out when I have my money tied up in shop inventory:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=71f0199e930fa633

By eliminating the stat bonuses from my rings, I'm free to switch to magic rings and arcane armor for when I want to spam heal. This config will have 25% channel and pretty decent m.atk:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ae004441db7dbcc6

AshleyLin - Heavens Tear

Not much to add to Solandri's thorough comments, I personally agree with everything. I guess I'd just like to point out again that Patakas with their lower attack rate are the worst choice for DPS for a HA veno, especially after refines and adding -int gears (keeping in mind that the refine bonuses will be the same for identical grade weapons).

I'm personally using the 95 lunar wand, not the best choice, can still ditch good damage (didn't expect back then that the DPS in fox form could get that good, otherwise might have chosen a magic sword). I can currently reach an average of 6.6k p.attack unbuffed, with a attack rate of 1.54 attacks/s, and 13% crit rate. I intend to reach 1.82 attacks/s eventually. I can quite easily still aggro from the barb if I want to (and I do like doing it lol), even with opening with soul degen and amp. My current best crit is just under 50k with a triple sparked regular melee attack with HF and amp.

My current full HA melee build for reference: http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=438c71c62584ca9d
Note that my current cape is actually the lunar HP one, but since the stats are wrong in pwcalc, I adjusted the cape and magic belt HP. Also my average p.attack in-game is 6.6k instead of 6.5k for whatever reason.

xylae

Ok, thanks a lot for all the info guys, it's been really helpful

Rillien - Heavens Tear

Thanks a ton for the feedback. It's good to hear that this is actually a workable thing. I know it's far more common to use the humanoid side of the skilltree but I'm getting sorta bored and venos seem like a fun class to mess around with.

Now, to hope for packs so I can get a love up and down tome...that looks almost especially made for heavy venos with such a massive all around stat boost...

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Rillien - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Thanks a ton for the feedback. It's good to hear that this is actually a workable thing. I know it's far more common to use the humanoid side of the skilltree but I'm getting sorta bored and venos seem like a fun class to mess around with.

Yeah, done right, it's the best of both worlds. Your spells and heals are about 85%-90% as good as a typical vit/mag build, and if you get bored slinging spells you can switch to melee and mix it up at close range.

Now, to hope for packs so I can get a love up and down tome...that looks almost especially made for heavy venos with such a massive all around stat boost...

Hate to break it to you, but the chance to get a scroll of tome from an anniv. pack is 0.01%. I've seen them sell for 135-170 mil on HT.

kenlee

ppl offer 200-250mil for a scroll of tome on my server but nobody sell
about stealing agro from herc, i dont think there is any veno who doesnt steal agro from pet. if i let herc do the first hit and bash i can guarantee you that i can steal agro just with venomous in the next few seconds. it also takes only first hit to be crit for any veno to take agro.

Rillien - Heavens Tear

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Hate to break it to you, but the chance to get a scroll of tome from an anniv. pack is 0.01%. I've seen them sell for 135-170 mil on HT.

Bleh...yeah I learned a long time ago not to rely on getting lucky, though it seems that more people are willing to sell them while packs are released than when they are not. Right now I haven't encountered many sellers, unless it's for a ridiculously inflated price. Although I do have plenty of time as my veno is nowhere near the restatting stage yet...just trying to plan ahead.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Heavy with a lot of +stat gear. Here's the outfit I normally wear right now, unbuffed. Just barely not enough melee damage to steal aggro from my herc, -9% channel which makes healing and Amping noticeably quicker, and a balanced mix of mdef and pdef:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=cb4f9260bcfd4382

Here's what I'm working towards for level 93, in a max melee damage config, unbuffed. I'm still looking for a Love Up and Down tome, but those always seem to come out when I have my money tied up in shop inventory:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=71f0199e930fa633

By eliminating the stat bonuses from my rings, I'm free to switch to magic rings and arcane armor for when I want to spam heal. This config will have 25% channel and pretty decent m.atk:
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ae004441db7dbcc6

Solandri, how much rep is needed for beamhoof slicer?

Esuna - Raging Tide

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »

Solandri, how much rep is needed for beamhoof slicer?

None. You need 10 of each of the 7 Badge types (Courage, Speed, Strength etc.) and trade them in. I dont think all of them are available in game atm.

Speed: Reward from the weekly Snake Isle race
Strength: Reward from the weekly Underwater Temple chests
Wisdom: ??? Apparently the Dragon Quest NPC has a quest that gives them. Cant confirm.
Courage: Astral Orbs gained in weekly City of Abominations event
Endurance: Reward from the weekly Underwater Temple chests and Boss
Bravery: Coral Packs/Anniversary Packs and Astral Orbs gained in weekly City of Abominations event

That's what pwdatabase tells me anyway. I'm not sure if certain NPCs or Forges still exist that will trade them.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

Esuna - Raging Tide wrote: »

None. You need 10 of each of the 7 Badge types (Courage, Speed, Strength etc.) and trade them in. I dont think all of them are available in game atm.

Speed: Reward from the weekly Snake Isle race
Strength: Reward from the weekly Underwater Temple chests
Wisdom: ??? Apparently the Dragon Quest NPC has a quest that gives them. Cant confirm.
Courage: Astral Orbs gained in weekly City of Abominations event
Endurance: Reward from the weekly Underwater Temple chests and Boss
Bravery: Coral Packs/Anniversary Packs and Astral Orbs gained in weekly City of Abominations event

That's what pwdatabase tells me anyway. I'm not sure if certain NPCs or Forges still exist that will trade them.

well all of them have to be available in game. cause ive seen a few ppl running around with beamhoof slicer.

anyways, can these items be bought? and what's the average cost?

Esuna - Raging Tide

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »

well all of them have to be available in game. cause ive seen a few ppl running around with beamhoof slicer.

anyways, can these items be bought? and what's the average cost?

Not everything that used to be available is available now (FC mats, Event items etc.)

For the Badges that are widely available.. usually see them for 300-500k ea.

kenlee

Esuna - Raging Tide wrote: »

None. You need 10 of each of the 7 Badge types (Courage, Speed, Strength etc.) and trade them in. I dont think all of them are available in game atm.

really? why do i see you in many threads misleading players around and you are lvl 95 lol
you need rank 6, that means 35k rep and all badges are ingame

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear

kenlee wrote: »

really? why do i see you in many threads misleading players around and you are lvl 95 lol
you need rank 6, that means 35k rep and all badges are ingame

Look at her sig... it translates to "(she) is a troll" in english.

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary

http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/7100 is this right?

Esuna - Raging Tide

kenlee wrote: »

really? why do i see you in many threads misleading players around and you are lvl 95 lol
you need rank 6, that means 35k rep and all badges are ingame

Many? You're referring to the thread where I might have mistaken one pet with another. Boo hoo.

Oh and learn to read;

That's what pwdatabase tells me anyway.

So yeah, you seem more of a troll to me. And my level doesn't really matter since I'm not interested in spending months of my life/a portion of my savings on rep or that particular weapon.

IceJazmin - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Look at her sig... it translates to "(she) is a troll" in english.

I'm not Spanish. It's a coincidence I didn't know about until you pointed it out, lol. The sig is a play on the House M.D. logo, where I replaced House with my character name and M.D. with my favourite forum pass-time. I guess that makes it kind of funny, but no need to spam it in multiple threads dear.

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary wrote: »

Solandri, how much rep is needed for beamhoof slicer?

Rank 6, which is 35k rep. Nice thing about rank 6 is it gives you level 90 arcane chest armor (rank 5 gives you the level 90 leggings) which are just about as good as TT90, so I won't need to make a second TT90 set. The ring also has 85 p.atk and m.atk, so it'll be good for a mixed melee/caster equipment combo. The ring and chest armor each have -3% channel.

Esuna - Raging Tide wrote: »

You need 10 of each of the 7 Badge types (Courage, Speed, Strength etc.) and trade them in. I dont think all of them are available in game atm.

All the badges are in the game.

Speed: Reward from the weekly Snake Isle race
Strength: Reward from the weekly Underwater Temple chests
Wisdom: ??? Apparently the Dragon Quest NPC has a quest that gives them. Cant confirm.
Courage: Astral Orbs gained in weekly City of Abominations event
Endurance: Reward from the weekly Underwater Temple chests and Boss
Bravery: Coral Packs/Anniversary Packs and Astral Orbs gained in weekly City of Abominations event

Wisdom can be obtained by trading in copper dragon orders to the DQ NPC.

Strength is from the City of Abominations. They're supposed to be from the Arena, but apparently PWE decided that wouldn't happen so they put them in CoA instead. Good for me since I don't PvP.

Bravery is from the Coral/Anniv packs. Theoretically you can get them from CoA, but they cost 400 or 600 orbs. That's nearly impossible to achieve unless you get very lucky and get a group of friends who are willing to let you loot all the orbs. So realistically you can't get them in CoA.

Dexterity is a semi-rare (5%) prize from the cube crate you get for completing the Cube of Fate.

I have all the badges except for 3 strength and 2 courage. I only have 15k rep, but have enough coin to buy the rest of the rep when I finish off the courage and strength badges. In the meantime, I'm building up rep the old fashioned way, and several friends are giving me dog tags they get as loot in way of thanks for help I've given them in the past.

From a cost standpoint, you are better off getting a Lunar weapon for ~65 mil. Assuming you can get to 10k rep on your own, with tokens at 12k, the remaining 25k rep will cost you 96 million. So this isn't something I'd recommend people try. I started it because I originally planned to get two of Slicers - one I'd socket with garnets, and the other with sapphires. I actually have 20 bravery and endurance badges since they're the harder ones to get. But some later calculations showed that for the same cost, I could refine a garnet-socketed Slicer to where its magic attack was higher than if I refined a second Slicer with sapphires. So at this point I'm only doing this since I don't like the lunar magic sword, and the wand is out of the question. And -10% channel seems like it would be useful since the rest of my gear isn't really channeling-oriented.