HELP!!! BARB vs SAGE

Pandarenn - Dreamweaver

SAGE vs DEMON*

I seriously have no idea what im gona need to go. Im scared that if i go sage i wont have enough dmg to keep agro otherwise i like that build. If i go demon im not sure that ill have all the HP/P.def to be an EPIC tank like idd like to be. Idd also like to know what all the upps and down of both are...if you could post those or point me to a thread that has them ALL.

IF any1 can help plz reply...Thanxb:thanks

melodux

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=608692

Knownase - Heavens Tear

I'll just say this....


Sage: PvE-Based, More HP and Defense.

Demon: PvP-Based, More Attack power and Crit.


What do you prefer?


Demons make up the HP with refines on armor and sharding with Citrines or Vit Stones.

Sages make up the attack with refining their weapon and sharding with Garnets and/or Ambers.

That is my general idea for now.
b:surrender

Nyxya - Harshlands

both are good and sage won't lose agro because ur dmg in tiger is not really half... just check for your self...beside bramble does the trick... demon is cool for bko+perdition combo that is with out a doubt awesome.. remember how fun was sage barbar in gv at 99 using perdition on cd because charm never jump:D
last and not least sage get chi skill -very cool-50chi for every 60 sec while demon gets bolex-burn 50 chi in enemy... but any sage or demon get genie skill could eruption-on a good genie is like 200 chi almostb:victory

Pandarenn - Dreamweaver

Thanx for all the replies its gona take allot more for me to decide and yes my cloud eruption gives me 134 at 80 xP

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Pandarenn - Dreamweaver wrote: »

SAGE vs DEMON*

I seriously have no idea what im gona need to go. Im scared that if i go sage i wont have enough dmg to keep agro otherwise i like that build. If i go demon im not sure that ill have all the HP/P.def to be an EPIC tank like idd like to be. Idd also like to know what all the upps and down of both are...if you could post those or point me to a thread that has them ALL.

IF any1 can help plz reply...Thanxb:thanks

A good idea that I've seen work for a number of people (regardless of class) is go down each skill. Make a checklist of which skill you like better in sage or demon version. Count the checks at the end, and there you go. That's just one easy way of doing it.

Personally, I pick a few skills I like the most, how they affect my game play, and decide which version I like better.

WaffleChan - Sanctuary

personally, id prefer demon.

full damage tiger
faster flesh ream
100% reflect on roar
sunder making all your hits crit for 6s
10% more arma damage
35% crit boost from beastial onslaught

25% faster attack speed with spark

just a number of skills i think are cool. full damage tiger holds aggro better than -50% attack tiger with little more hp.

GohRaL - Sanctuary

Pandarenn - Dreamweaver wrote: »

SAGE vs DEMON*

I seriously have no idea what im gona need to go. Im scared that if i go sage i wont have enough dmg to keep agro otherwise i like that build. If i go demon im not sure that ill have all the HP/P.def to be an EPIC tank like idd like to be. Idd also like to know what all the upps and down of both are...if you could post those or point me to a thread that has them ALL.

IF any1 can help plz reply...Thanxb:thanks

if u like to be the best tank (highest hp) well then go sage and dont worry for dmg since sage has good add too...

btw a tank is more than just HP



choose what u like more, i like demon =P

XylolyX - Heavens Tear

How many frigging threads like this are we gonna have?

SEARCH ftw.b:angry

melodux

again...SEE HERE: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/sh...d.php?t=608692

let thread die please.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

WaffleChan - Sanctuary wrote: »

personally, id prefer demon.

full damage tiger
faster flesh ream
100% reflect on roar
sunder making all your hits crit for 6s
10% more arma damage
35% crit boost from beastial onslaught

25% faster attack speed with spark

just a number of skills i think are cool. full damage tiger holds aggro better than -50% attack tiger with little more hp.

Reflect on roar is nice, but assuming there's a veno in the squad, means the veno has to continuously re-bramble. I don't like the fact that it overrides bramble and then disappears. Still, I agree with this as my barb is going demon unless it turns out that the demon true form dmg isn't as much of an increase as it looks like.

I'm more interested in something slightly more analytical though from barbs who are both sage and demon with similar equips, like what the actual damage difference is that they do in tiger. I compared attack stats on a character build via pwcalc between sage and demon and the difference statwise wasn't very significant, but how it actually works in the game is perhaps another story.

Gimlett - Lost City

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I'm more interested in something slightly more analytical though from barbs who are both sage and demon with similar equips, like what the actual damage difference is that they do in tiger. I compared attack stats on a character build via pwcalc between sage and demon and the difference statwise wasn't very significant, but how it actually works in the game is perhaps another story.

The difference is almost negligible when you consider that sage axe and hammer mastery gives +100% weapon damage vs demon's +75%. The damage reduction is also calculated after the strength buff as well, so both sage and demon have the full benefit of the buff in tiger form. Also, it's only a reduction of weapon damage and as such does not affect damage granted via strength points etc. Your analysis on pwcalc is probably very accurate.
The extra HP for sage barbs in tiger form, however, is quite significant (assuming you're vit build)!

Lycanthar - Sanctuary

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Reflect on roar is nice, but assuming there's a veno in the squad, means the veno has to continuously re-bramble. I don't like the fact that it overrides bramble and then disappears. Still, I agree with this as my barb is going demon unless it turns out that the demon true form dmg isn't as much of an increase as it looks like.

I'm more interested in something slightly more analytical though from barbs who are both sage and demon with similar equips, like what the actual damage difference is that they do in tiger. I compared attack stats on a character build via pwcalc between sage and demon and the difference statwise wasn't very significant, but how it actually works in the game is perhaps another story.

1. It's a pvp-oriented skill, much like every other demon skill for any class.

2. Ok, pve consideraitons... Like the veno is busy doing something else anyway? Maybe zzz'ing or making bbq?

3. The difference between sage/demon tiger form damage is NOT negligable. Tiger form sages do **** damage - demon's do full (i.e. normal) damage. Not exactly analytical but the point is a sage tiger isn't going to hurt anything.

On the thought of posting analytical comments in the barb forum... are you serious? I tried that a few times and got flamed by 7x demon/sage EXPERTS and was labled an oracle n00b. Yea, was definitely oraclespam speed lvling that got me from 90 (last june) to 100 (few weeks ago). 8 months of 90+... I am such a ****ing n00b, OBV.

b:laughb:chuckleb:pleased

Gimlett - Lost City

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. The difference between sage/demon tiger form damage is NOT negligable. Tiger form sages do **** damage - demon's do full (i.e. normal) damage. Not exactly analytical but the point is a sage tiger isn't going to hurt anything.

Sorry, but it is, and for the reasons I stated above (it's a reduction in weapon damage NOT total damage aka p.attack). And I have actually tested this along side a level 98 demon barb (I'm sage) with the same refinement and shards on their axes and actually with 10 more str than my char. They had demon axe and hammer mastery, I have sage. They had demon true form, I had sage. We even had the exact same gear equipped apart from ornaments where mine are vit oriented and his were accuracy.

Average extra damage for the demon was about 250 PvE (about 4.5% more damage) . If you don't believe it.. go to one of the private servers, make 2 barbs and try it yourself. (Not that I would ever dream of endorsing private servers) Or at least use one of the many stats calculators that are out there.

Without doubt, I'd go demon if I wanted to PvP because of most of the other skills, but the lack of weapon damage reduction in tiger form is not one of the things that would lean me toward going demon!

Edit: If your axes are very highly refined (i.e. over +9 or so) then the difference will be more prominent as a higher proportion of your damage is coming from your weapon. We did our testing with +6 axes

Cleon - Harshlands

HP difference is not that much, sage gets about 1-1.5k more hp, same goes for p.def it's about 1% difference.

Attack difference is also not that much, demon do a little bit more and have about 4% more crit.

On the other hand demon have a lot more PvP oriented skills (crit and spike damage), while sage is more PvE/survival.

I've played both Sage and Demon barbs with 90% of their demon/sage skills, both vit builds of course (although my demon barb is running around with CV claws atm :P)

Gimlett - Lost City

On the ball, apart from the pdef difference, sage barbs get an extra 40% p.def from equipment (Yeah, in real terms this isn't actually 40% more because of all the other p.def modifying buffs and vit etc, but it's much more than 1% difference) assuming both barbs have level 11 shapeshifting intensity. Note there is no difference in human form.

Lycanthar - Sanctuary

Nice testing Gimlett.

Did you happen to test aggro holding over time on a TT boss?

Did the demon barb have any interval gear, did you guys test spark damage?

You allude to it in your post about pdef, there are many, many other considerations. Testing damage in such a controlled manner (i.e. same gears same wep same skils) isn't much use.

I hold aggro by 3 sparking and auto attacking with debuffs. I almost never use use flesh ream, unless another demon DD class is intentionally challenging me for aggro.

Just as with testing, there are many more considersations than a raw judgement of "sage only does a tiny bit less damage than demon in trueform". That statement may be true for a SINGLE hit against the same mob with both barbs having the same gear and the same wep, sure.

When you begin to add the dynamic factors such as combinations with other lvl 11 skills, gear differential - which is obviously going to be present if the demon and/or sage builds towards his/her cultivation's strengths, and so forth the gap in damage becomes much more noticable.

In my opinion, issuing a blanket statement that sages only do a bit less damage than demon's in tiger form is misleading and simply not true.

Bartack - Heavens Tear

Demon tiger would also have 4-9% more crit, sans sunder. Oh and a little more wood damage from poison fang. I have heard it explained like this before- sage adds good constant increases and benefits, demon is like gambling, a chance for huge spikes amongst mostly fair increases.

The great thing about these threads is that there never is a definitive answer, because sage and demon aren't really all that different, and are very well balanced. So pick whatever tickles your fancy because you cant go wrong, unlike some of the other classes. Well, unless you really want to pull cata in TW, then you should really should go sage, no real argument there i believe.

Oh, and I went demon because i could get skills cheaper (=more skills) in my sage-heavy care-bear server. If you don't HAVE sage/demon skills, then there really is almost no difference between the two. b:chuckle

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Personally I go sage on barb for these reases

Free and easy chi
less chi to spend on arggo skills for tiger
magic dmg debuff which is rare
Never missing beastial onslaught, allowing to be more accurate with attacks
More HP and speed in tiger form
Devour become easier to spam
Much better survivability
MP recovery I would spam MP powders less this way b:thanks
More constant damage


ALSO NO MORE THREADS ABOUT THIS PLEASE

ZoanoAce - Lost City

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Personally I go sage on barb for these reasons

Free and easy chi
less chi to spend on arggo skills for tiger
magic dmg debuff which is rare
Never missing beastial onslaught, allowing to be more accurate with attacks
More HP and speed in tiger form
Devour become easier to spam
Much better survivability
MP recovery I would spam MP powders less this way b:thanks
More constant damage


ALSO NO MORE THREADS ABOUT THIS PLEASE

Quote, fine, print!b:laughb:laugh

PS: corrected your typo ^^

Yulk - Heavens Tear

ZoanoAce - Lost City wrote: »

Quote, fine, print!b:laughb:laugh

PS: corrected your typo ^^

I just got owned by a typo lol. I should type slower than trying to race with typing. b:laugh thx...

ZoanoAce - Lost City

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I just got owned by a typo lol. I should type slower than trying to race with typing. b:laugh thx...

Anytime lol b:chuckleb:victory

Edit: Stupid multiquote lol :P

Gimlett - Lost City

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Nice testing Gimlett.

Thanks!

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Did you happen to test aggro holding over time on a TT boss?

Nope, but like you, I can just use 3 spark and devour to hold off almost all DDs unless they start sparking and going nuts.

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

You allude to it in your post about pdef, there are many, many other considerations. Testing damage in such a controlled manner (i.e. same gears same wep same skils) isn't much use.

OP wanted analytical results, welcome to the world of science where a controlled test is necessary.

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

In my opinion, issuing a blanket statement that sages only do a bit less damage than demon's in tiger form is misleading and simply not true.

I agree, but unfortunately I felt it necessary after you'd stated something incorrect in a blanket statement:

Lycanthar - Sanctuary wrote: »

3. The difference between sage/demon tiger form damage is NOT negligable. Tiger form sages do **** damage - demon's do full (i.e. normal) damage. Not exactly analytical but the point is a sage tiger isn't going to hurt anything.

Boozer - Lost City

Pandarenn - Dreamweaver wrote: »

SAGE vs DEMON*

I seriously have no idea what im gona need to go. Im scared that if i go sage i wont have enough dmg to keep agro otherwise i like that build. If i go demon im not sure that ill have all the HP/P.def to be an EPIC tank like idd like to be. Idd also like to know what all the upps and down of both are...if you could post those or point me to a thread that has them ALL.

IF any1 can help plz reply...Thanxb:thanks

Majority of barbs, bms and archers go demon for a reason b:surrender.

Sage is rather outdated, specially since the game introduced genies which offered everyone the defensive/chi benefits sage classes gets but not the one demon gets like crit and attack speed.

In case of barb, sage/demon are equally good for pve. Sage with the extra hp and def in tiger is obviously better for tanking really hard and challenging bosses and pulling cata in TW. But i dont know a single boss in this game you actually need a sage barb for. For "casual tanking" like fbs and TT and such its pretty equal and more based on gear than cultivation.

The issue is demon being superior for pvp (and equally good for pve) while many sage barbs that actively wants to pvp tends to quit at higher lvl after regretting going sage.

GohRaL - Sanctuary

Boozer - Lost City wrote: »

Majority of barbs, bms and archers go demon for a reason b:surrender.

Sage is rather outdated, specially since the game introduced genies which offered everyone the defensive/chi benefits sage classes gets but not the one demon gets like crit and attack speed.

In case of barb, sage/demon are equally good for pve. Sage with the extra hp and def in tiger is obviously better for tanking really hard and challenging bosses and pulling cata in TW. But i dont know a single boss in this game you actually need a sage barb for. For "casual tanking" like fbs and TT and such its pretty equal and more based on gear than cultivation.

The issue is demon being superior for pvp (and equally good for pve) while many sage barbs that actively wants to pvp tends to quit at higher lvl after regretting going sage.

harpy wraith is one of those...im sure youll need a sage barb to get through him b:shocked



and from what ive heard is just a DEMON ONLY quest you get in the late 90s...






so the sage barb you will need, wont get any reward beside the credits and fame to be the ultimate tank

Bigtease - Lost City

b:victory i also play a lvl88 barb as well and going sage on him too just check etacomb in a search on the web itll take u to a fan site the shows all the different skills and what they do and i prefer sage cause being a str/vit build when i get end game gear and good refines like some barbs on the LC server ull have 30k + hp in tiger form ill say that again for u (30k + hp) this means unless they have a full squad for u ur basically gonna pwn anyone 1vs1 and the perdition takes only 35% of hp instead of half anynmore and remember that move is based on how much hp u have and mp u have another good reason for sage on my build str/vit b:surrender only 50 dex means mobbing 2 mistys all the time to b able to pvp against bms at the moment and sage beasitial onsaulaught never misses yea it increases channeling time sure but only to .7 of a second wich ull never notices i mean cmon with any game the .7 of a second is the amount of time ur brain took to send the signal to ur finger to push the key to do the move but decide for urslef but if u do go demon get true form right off the bat and shape shifting intensify as soon as possible as well and plan on staying in tiger form the rest the time u play but etacomb.com has an in depth page on how the skills sage/demon work b:bye

Boozer - Lost City

GohRaL - Sanctuary wrote: »

harpy wraith is one of those...im sure youll need a sage barb to get through him b:shocked



and from what ive heard is just a DEMON ONLY quest you get in the late 90s...






so the sage barb you will need, wont get any reward beside the credits and fame to be the ultimate tank

Actually harpy has been killed on several PW servers using a demon tank b:surrender

All tho if the tank was sage it would obviously have been done easier since more def and hp in tiger ^^

In the end it really comes down to gear and refines over cultivation. A demon barb can have same or even more hp than sage in tiger, it just costs more monies.

I guess if you really only want massive hp in tiger and be hard to kill, sage is of course a better choice than demon since its easier and cheaper to achieve it.

A sage barb can on the other hand never get the ridiculous amount if crit that demon gets tho.

Sage has far better party buffs tho b:victory

GohRaL - Sanctuary

Boozer - Lost City wrote: »

Actually harpy has been killed on several PW servers using a demon tank b:surrender

All tho if the tank was sage it would obviously have been done easier since more def and hp in tiger ^^

In the end it really comes down to gear and refines over cultivation. A demon barb can have same or even more hp than sage in tiger, it just costs more monies.

I guess if you really only want massive hp in tiger and be hard to kill, sage is of course a better choice than demon since its easier and cheaper to achieve it.

A sage barb can on the other hand never get the ridiculous amount if crit that demon gets tho.

Sage has far better party buffs tho b:victory

well...wasnt really unthinkable, i saw demon with 28k HP so is just a matter of money spent...






for the party buff i can uderstand those 10% more of titans, but BKI is just duration...

i see that you wont be always stick together with the squad member but 30minutes are really a lot IMO...